I don't think anyone is denying that JW is (rightfully) a POI. I just haven't personally seen anything to suggest that he and JR have any meaningful connection post-grad, unless there is information you haven't shared about the "Michigan connection", I think we just interpret the depth of the connection differently.
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32
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I don't think anyone is denying that JW is (rightfully) a POI. I just haven't personally seen anything to suggest that he and JR have any meaningful connection post-grad, unless there is information you haven't shared about the "Michigan connection", I think we just interpret the depth of the connection differently.
Yes, I would expect people's stories to have minor discrepancies. However, when people are telling the truth, facts don't change. In the accounts we have from MB's lawyer, witnesses and the private investigators, there are major changes about where MB was, whether or not he was home all night, whether or not he was sober, what Lauren's condition was, and how she got to JR's. The POI have never given a consistent and coherent timeline of events in the couple of hours before Lauren went missing. This is pretty standard and expected in a missing person case.
About the "10 POI", I believe LE mentioned they were looking for information from up to 10 people in the immediate days following Lauren's disappearance. Since then, obviously they focused their investigation on certain people and those people have been consistently named by LE, the Spierers and the Private Investigators.
I don't know if that is necessarily true. Just because some adhere to that lifestyle, doesn't mean that they all did. Whenever you have an organization with many members, there's going to be smaller cliques or groups within the broader group.
In what capacity did you work with them? I highly doubt that that most of them are going to lie about harming/killing a girl and/or hiding a body just because they are fraternity brothers.
I think the fraternity connection alone doesn't say much. Many times people in one fraternity and sorority have fellow brothers or sisters they don't care for and/or straight up don't even like, just like any other organization. The bigger the organization, the more likely it is that there might be several members they don't even really know well. I think it would be much a stronger connection if they were hanging out with the same core group of people and IMO it doesn't appear that they really did. Besides, if JW and JR were so close, why wasn't the second call to JW instead of some dude LS was hanging out with earlier in the night?
I don't think there was any connection shown in MI. Unless the companies were somehow related, what's the connection? The company JW was working for was in NYC and has many clients, some bigger than others. One of these clients was located in MI. So what? It's not like the client was JR's company.
Do you have a link about this - i.e., especially the drug charges? I'd like to know more about it. Thanks.
How well LS & JR knew each other is disputed. They supposedly knew each other through summer camp and maybe the grandparent thing, but I don't think that means they knew each other well and clearly the Spierers don't think so.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/2424318810001/spierer-family-students-know-more-than-theyre-saying-/
Dixie811 said:
Link to Dixie811's relevant post.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31
Ah thank you for finding this! I spent a while trying to find a source for it because I remember the spierers saying that they weren't close but didn't want to reference it without a source.
I don't even know the names of some of the kids who live on my grandparent's block and who I've seen around since we were babies, let alone kids whose grandparents also live on my grandparent's block
I agree with all of this. JW and JR have some loose connections, that could mean that they are or were friendly, or could mean nothing.
I also stumbled on an article earlier today that mentions JW having a frat brother throw JR out of a party either JW or JW's friends were hosting once they were back in school that September. That doesn't sound too friendly to me, and I doubt that they pretended to hate each other for a year and then came up with some work connection. I'll try to find the source for the fight now
Edit: link
"At a football tailgate party in early September after everyone but Spierer was back at school, Rosenbaum said, Wolff had a frat buddy named Mark come over to threaten that Wolff would punch him in the face if he didn’t leave right away.
Rosenbaum said he left to avoid conflict."
http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/news02/306030045
I remember reading that HT thought of JR as a big brother and was closer to him, but I have searched and searched for that article and can't find it anywhere. I think Dixie even mentioned it in the post I linked to but also couldn't find it?
Does anyone else remember this and/or possibly have the link saved?
I remember that, I'll look for it. It was in several articles right after Lauren disappeared because of HT's statements
Mahouston69
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I disagree. How do you not know each other well when you have the money these two do and the positions they held in the fraternity, in addition to LS being a common denominator as well. Again, JR's and LS's grandparents lived on the same street. They may not have hung out much growing up but I think ties were there and I believe a business, colleague, frat relationship existed between JR and JW. I believe that second call was to JW to come take care of his girl before she got everybody busted. There are no witnesses that saw JR watch LS walk to the corner. There are no witnesses that saw JW asleep in his room all night.
I initially believed CR and MB were purposely hiding nefarious actions. I don't think that anymore, especially going back and reading all of their immediate actions after she went missing. Including JW calling his father to come immediately to what appears to me as coming to "his" aide, not LS as it was to get him out of there within days despite he had signed up for the summer session, not knowing but acting as if LS was never coming back. Not kidnapped, not hurt and lost, but gone. Every word not backed up by a media link, is my own opinion of who is responsible for LS's disappearance.
The last ABC.GO.Com link also states JR wasn't far behind him....
I initially believed CR and MB were purposely hiding nefarious actions. I don't think that anymore, especially going back and reading all of their immediate actions after she went missing. Including JW calling his father to come immediately to what appears to me as coming to "his" aide, not LS as it was to get him out of there within days despite he had signed up for the summer session, not knowing but acting as if LS was never coming back. Not kidnapped, not hurt and lost, but gone. Every word not backed up by a media link, is my own opinion of who is responsible for LS's disappearance.
The last ABC.GO.Com link also states JR wasn't far behind him....
Couldn't find the big brother comment but I found a bunch of sources talking about them being close, including an interview HT did about being back in bloomington in the fall.
"She has kept her friendship with Rosenbaum and said she has been out with him a few times in recent weeks, but hasn't spoken with him any more about the case.
"It's hard for him to be back," she said. "Everyone's harassing him and looking at him differently. He doesn't deserve it." If anything, she said, "The one thing he did wrong was that he let her walk home by herself."
http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...3/Lauren-Spierer-s-college-friends-Where-you-
If I were in her position I'd be asking him daily if he remembered anything significant... not pretending nothing happened. Just my opinion
<modsnip>
The police have said that the second call was to someone who had been watching the game with Lauren earlier. That suggests they have identified the person, and JW was not watching the game at smallwood.
Also re: "How do you not know each other well when you have the money these two do"
Money is relative. Being well off doesn't mean they're friends, and both families having money does not mean that they have the same amount of money, or ran in the same circles.
I know kids who went to Indiana, and several of them are extremely wealthy kids of hedge fund managers. Indiana is a massive school with a significant number of wealthy students, if all these kids only wanted to hang out with other wealthy kids they would have plenty of options, its not like there were only 10 wealthy kids in the student body
I do think the ABC link is interesting, and we also have JW's venomous parents to add into the mix... They certainly did not seem like they wanted to be helpful
Mahouston69
Digital Imaging Specialist
<modsnip>
In most cases I've studied where there is absolutely no trace, no evidence, no body...only one person knows the truth. Definitely not 3 or 4.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
In regards to the Spierers criticizing JW, they haven't always.
The Spierers have also said this:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...sappears-her-parents-exclusive-interview.html
I've wondered if the comments about him not being forthcoming are related to his quick conclusion that something was wrong, but I don't think he would be alone in that. It seems like a lot of her friends had some idea of what might have happened based on comments many of them made following her disappearance, especially HT (LS taking it too far). It's hard to know why they are less supportive now, but AFAIK, they seem to be putting the most pressure on the same people they have from the start - the last known people with her, hence the lawsuit. It doesn't sound like he was necessarily not cooperating from the start based on that quote though. AFAIK, there is nothing but speculation linking him to anything that happened that night.
I mean, there is no business connection. At least, not on what has been posted. How are these businesses related? Until there is some connection between the two, I'm not following how there is a connection. Beyond that, the company in MI was a client of JW's company in NYC, so I don't see the connection?
I'm also not sure why the fact that both have money means they are connected? Also, can someone please provide a link stating the positions that JW and JR held in the fraternity?
I tend to believe that the Spierers would be more knowledgeable on whether their daughter was really friends with JR.
The Spierers have also said this:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...sappears-her-parents-exclusive-interview.html
I've wondered if the comments about him not being forthcoming are related to his quick conclusion that something was wrong, but I don't think he would be alone in that. It seems like a lot of her friends had some idea of what might have happened based on comments many of them made following her disappearance, especially HT (LS taking it too far). It's hard to know why they are less supportive now, but AFAIK, they seem to be putting the most pressure on the same people they have from the start - the last known people with her, hence the lawsuit. It doesn't sound like he was necessarily not cooperating from the start based on that quote though. AFAIK, there is nothing but speculation linking him to anything that happened that night.
The second phone call was not made to JW.
http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...tegori=MULTIMEDIA0501&Lopenr=306070067&Ref=PH
I mean, there is no business connection. At least, not on what has been posted. How are these businesses related? Until there is some connection between the two, I'm not following how there is a connection. Beyond that, the company in MI was a client of JW's company in NYC, so I don't see the connection?
I'm also not sure why the fact that both have money means they are connected? Also, can someone please provide a link stating the positions that JW and JR held in the fraternity?
I tend to believe that the Spierers would be more knowledgeable on whether their daughter was really friends with JR.
None of them took an LE polygraph or fully cooperated with the investigation.
BBM - I agree with you on this. This is exactly why I find it hard to imagine JW's involvement. The unlikelihood of any conspiracy seems to increase exponentially by adding JW into the picture in some kind of collaboration with JR. Again, regardless of any link between JR and JW (which is sketchy at best), there's just nothing pointing to JW being involved with any of these guys or Lauren the night she went missing. I could imagine a scenario where JW could be involved if Lauren left 5 N, but a scenario involving JR and JW in some kind of conspiracy seems like a big stretch since JW wasn't there, and requires ignoring the evidence we do have and imagining evidence we don't have, like untraceable phone calls or texts. If there was anything AT ALL pointing to communication with JW that night, my views would be different.
doubtingthomas
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In response to how well LS knew JR I found this:
http://www.dailypress.com/news/wxin...s-100k-reward-20110609,0,5685249.story?page=2
Bloomington, Ind.—
Another resident of the 5 North Townhomes told Fox59 News he recognized photographs of Spierer from missing posters.
"I thought it was crazy because I had seen her over here," said Keith Turner. "I never seen her hanging out over here but I have seen her walk back and past.
Turner said Spierer would often visit the end of the building where Rossman and Rosenbaum lived in seperate apartments.
The following is from another forum like this so I didn't know if I could link it because it is from a poster but no link, but I remember reading this before. I have tried to find the link it came from but have not had any luck.
Jay Rosenbaum, Corey Rossman and Mike Beth -- literally the last three males to acknowledge seeing Lauren last on the night she disappeared -- all lived in the same apartment building and were friends, according to Hadar, and she said she has been good friends with Rosenbaum since her freshman year of college, too, stating Lauren would often accompany her to Rosenbaum’s apartment during the past year.
I also thought I had read before, don't have a link, that it was JR who text LS to come over that morning. It was also JR who introduced LS to CR at the Indy 500. So I would think that she knew him a little better than maybe her parents were aware of.
I would also like to point out, to see if others are having this problem, when I go to a link that is suppose to have the info, it has been removed, archived or only for paying members. It has been 3 years so a lot of what was available to us before is no longer available.
http://www.dailypress.com/news/wxin...s-100k-reward-20110609,0,5685249.story?page=2
Bloomington, Ind.—
Another resident of the 5 North Townhomes told Fox59 News he recognized photographs of Spierer from missing posters.
"I thought it was crazy because I had seen her over here," said Keith Turner. "I never seen her hanging out over here but I have seen her walk back and past.
Turner said Spierer would often visit the end of the building where Rossman and Rosenbaum lived in seperate apartments.
The following is from another forum like this so I didn't know if I could link it because it is from a poster but no link, but I remember reading this before. I have tried to find the link it came from but have not had any luck.
Jay Rosenbaum, Corey Rossman and Mike Beth -- literally the last three males to acknowledge seeing Lauren last on the night she disappeared -- all lived in the same apartment building and were friends, according to Hadar, and she said she has been good friends with Rosenbaum since her freshman year of college, too, stating Lauren would often accompany her to Rosenbaum’s apartment during the past year.
I also thought I had read before, don't have a link, that it was JR who text LS to come over that morning. It was also JR who introduced LS to CR at the Indy 500. So I would think that she knew him a little better than maybe her parents were aware of.
I would also like to point out, to see if others are having this problem, when I go to a link that is suppose to have the info, it has been removed, archived or only for paying members. It has been 3 years so a lot of what was available to us before is no longer available.
I ran into that issue with links being taken down as well. I could only read about a paragraph before I needed a paid subscription. I've found one or two of the articles have been reprinted on other sites/blogs, you can try googling a few sentences from the article you're trying to access in quotes, but that only worked for one or two of them for me.
Any chance someone has saved any of those articles? I wish they were still available to look back through/check new facts against
Ixchel13
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I was responding to Abbey, and I have no idea what your interpretation of the depth of their post-grad connections are, and have zero desire to discuss anything about the MI thing with you. You saw the thread go down.
Having different speculations and scenarios is what this is about, arguing with each other about those speculations is not really what this is about.
I agree with Ma Houston that they probably communicated by burner phones, and yes, I also agree and speculate that JR probably called JW to come get Lauren.
Burner phones....unless a person needs one, and I'm not talking about people who can't afford phone service, then a person would pooh
pooh the idea of their uses. Dealers use them. All the time. Also, media savvy people use them. People who don't want to be tracked by normal phone GPS.
People who don't want everyone to know where they are. People who are having affairs. All kinds of careful or sneaky people use them. Also, pagers are back in use, with numerical codes corresponding to different people and different things these people want.
Super, super easy for JR to have called JW without showing up on his phone. We don't need any connection or smoking gun to sleuth JW because he
has from day one of Lauren's disappearance been a POI and remains thus.
You can try this for expired pages: http://archive.org/web/
I have some of the articles saved, if you're looking for anything specific. A lot of the early articles were also quoted at length in posts here, which can be found if you know what you're searching for.
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