What did you decide to ask, or what info did you request, if you don't mind sharing?
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32
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What did you decide to ask, or what info did you request, if you don't mind sharing?
Nothing specific yet. I introduced myself, explained Websleuths, included info on times WS has been helpful in cases (thank you, google) and asked if they would be open to answering questions/clearing up released information. Just a general intro.
I assume/hope they're discussing it or deciding how to respond. I figure I'll give them through the weekend, and follow up early next week, perhaps with a more specific approach.
At the very least, I hope to get clarity on the released timeline, as akh advised. Maybe clarity on things reported by TG that are unconfirmed? I've also considered that tips/facts not relating to the civil case (JR, CR) may be more "accessible." Immediately, Red Dog comes to mind (homeless man revered in his community, reported scream heard that night, found dead few days later. There's a housing project named after him now.)
At the most, I hope to be able to ask all the questions we've raised here, and open a line of communication for future contact. I do think this board's collective mind is a great resource, while remaining aware that anyone could be reading this, and that must factor in. I'm an optimistic realist.
Nothing specific yet. I introduced myself, explained Websleuths, included info on times WS has been helpful in cases (thank you, google) and asked if they would be open to answering questions/clearing up released information. Just a general intro.
I assume/hope they're discussing it or deciding how to respond. I figure I'll give them through the weekend, and follow up early next week, perhaps with a more specific approach.
At the very least, I hope to get clarity on the released timeline, as akh advised. Maybe clarity on things reported by TG that are unconfirmed? I've also considered that tips/facts not relating to the civil case (JR, CR) may be more "accessible." Immediately, Red Dog comes to mind (homeless man revered in his community, reported scream heard that night, found dead few days later. There's a housing project named after him now.)
At the most, I hope to be able to ask all the questions we've raised here, and open a line of communication for future contact. I do think this board's collective mind is a great resource, while remaining aware that anyone could be reading this, and that must factor in. I'm an optimistic realist.
Thank you so much for doing this! I'm not sure how forthcoming I think they can/will be, but honestly if we can get any new information or clarification I think that would be fantastic, we've been going in circles with the little information we do have for so long, something new could be a huge help
Sounds great, kpeacock!
If anyone is willing to clarify any of the statements made during the early press conferences, one that has been debated many times here is the statement where Det. Qualters discounted the time/ sighting of the 'mystery man' as reported by Gatto. (I linked to this in a recent post in this thread) I think it's clear that they are stating that this encounter happened between Lauren and Corey Rossman, and that there is no mystery man, period. (It was just confusing at the time because of the wording about what was and wasn't captured on video, and because they had not yet named CR). But, the 'mystery man', like the white truck, is one of those myths that has persisted. So, on my wishlist -- it would be great if LE was willing to comment on the more recent version of the story and timeline as reported by the private investigators and the media.
I would also like to know if anyone other than JR, CR and MB (and possibly JW) are considered to be persons of interest at this date (though again, I don't have high hopes for any new or updated info from LE).
If anyone is willing to clarify any of the statements made during the early press conferences, one that has been debated many times here is the statement where Det. Qualters discounted the time/ sighting of the 'mystery man' as reported by Gatto. (I linked to this in a recent post in this thread) I think it's clear that they are stating that this encounter happened between Lauren and Corey Rossman, and that there is no mystery man, period. (It was just confusing at the time because of the wording about what was and wasn't captured on video, and because they had not yet named CR). But, the 'mystery man', like the white truck, is one of those myths that has persisted. So, on my wishlist -- it would be great if LE was willing to comment on the more recent version of the story and timeline as reported by the private investigators and the media.
I would also like to know if anyone other than JR, CR and MB (and possibly JW) are considered to be persons of interest at this date (though again, I don't have high hopes for any new or updated info from LE).
Nothing specific yet. I introduced myself, explained Websleuths, included info on times WS has been helpful in cases (thank you, google) and asked if they would be open to answering questions/clearing up released information. Just a general intro.
I assume/hope they're discussing it or deciding how to respond. I figure I'll give them through the weekend, and follow up early next week, perhaps with a more specific approach.
At the very least, I hope to get clarity on the released timeline, as akh advised. Maybe clarity on things reported by TG that are unconfirmed? I've also considered that tips/facts not relating to the civil case (JR, CR) may be more "accessible." Immediately, Red Dog comes to mind (homeless man revered in his community, reported scream heard that night, found dead few days later. There's a housing project named after him now.)
At the most, I hope to be able to ask all the questions we've raised here, and open a line of communication for future contact. I do think this board's collective mind is a great resource, while remaining aware that anyone could be reading this, and that must factor in. I'm an optimistic realist.
Great! I think even if they only clarified information, it would be great. Lately, I it seems like the media has gone out of their way in showing how they can get stuff wrong in the rush to deliver news first.
I'm interested in how confident they are that they knew who was at JR's and when, especially those that may have stayed the night and thus would have been present during LS' final hours there. I doubt they would want to comment on that but that has always bothered me.
I glanced through the Spierer complaint today and a few questions crossed my mind (BBM)
Again, does LE know the mutual friend and the others with JR (DB? Who else?). So LS and CR were never alone until they left Kilroy's and were never completely alone until back at 5N?
Also: http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477
Not to be disrespectful or gross, but because the OD theory has always been a prevalent rumor, does anyone think it is possible that instead of CR throwing up it was CR or CR/MB trying to force something out of LS' system? Maybe MB came home to CR freaking out, making noise, and LS having trouble then and at first thought someone had broken in before realizing what was really happening?
If the descriptions of LS are accurate (allegation 22 describes her "incoherent and nonresponsive" and allegation 26 "unable to properly function"), she was hitting her head multiple times and producing audible thuds, and she was already showing bruising of the face, it really seems like a stretch that she could make it home unassisted, especially after CR had to sling her across his back on their way to 5N(because she couldn't make it herself?).
Maybe if LE does respond, we could ask for comments, if any, they have on the accuracy of the above descriptions of LS? Also, whether they were able to test the vomit for any DNA and if so, whether it was conclusory? I doubt they will give anything new for the first question and have very little hope they will comment on the second one, but hey, worth a shot! Thank you again kpeacock for reaching out to LE.
So MB went to JR's, came back to his own residence BEFORE everyone else headed off to Kilroy's, went back to JR's (when they got back from Kilroy's?), and then finally went home again a second time, which is when he thought he was being burglarized? Or is "returned to the residence while CR and LS were there" referring to the later time when MB came back thinking his place was getting burglarized? I'm a little confused if this is one or two events. If two, maybe he did his paper while they were at Kilroy's and met up with JR again when they got back from Kilroy's?
Again, does LE know the mutual friend and the others with JR (DB? Who else?). So LS and CR were never alone until they left Kilroy's and were never completely alone until back at 5N?
Wasn't this what the mystery man was supposedly doing? I think Abbey is right - CR was the mystery man. IIRC, weren't the initial rumors piggybacking? "Slung across" sounds much more incoherent than "helping each other/piggybacking" do, IMO.
Also: http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477
I think people might be confused too because of a misunderstanding between initial descriptions and later descriptions, and just assuming they are two different events. (CR and LS were helping each other/piggybacking/etc. vs thrown across his shoulder/slung across his back)
What exactly did he witness that caused such alarm? CR expressed interest in LS before that night and MB had seen them together earlier that night so even 2 people shouldn't be that surprising to him, IMO, although maybe he is just extremely paranoid after experiencing a burglary once. CR was supposedly messed up to the point he needed to go to bed so I wonder if she was dropped at all while being carried, which may have been noisy enough for alarm?
Not to be disrespectful or gross, but because the OD theory has always been a prevalent rumor, does anyone think it is possible that instead of CR throwing up it was CR or CR/MB trying to force something out of LS' system? Maybe MB came home to CR freaking out, making noise, and LS having trouble then and at first thought someone had broken in before realizing what was really happening?
I'm not sure what to make out of this. I read it to mean that they are implying a stranger/criminal/SO grabbed her, and but for the abandonment and intoxication, that wouldn't have happened? IMO, if not 5N and they are being honest that she left, this makes the most sense to me. I have wondered a little if instead of her leaving on her own volition, they sort of just kicked her out and literally abandoned her, which could mean that she could walk somewhat or the more extreme - just set her outside, and that could be the lie they are covering up. The more people that were present at CR's or JR's would also increase the likelihood that someone there (outside of the known POIs) realized LS was vulnerable and took advantage of the situation.
If the descriptions of LS are accurate (allegation 22 describes her "incoherent and nonresponsive" and allegation 26 "unable to properly function"), she was hitting her head multiple times and producing audible thuds, and she was already showing bruising of the face, it really seems like a stretch that she could make it home unassisted, especially after CR had to sling her across his back on their way to 5N(because she couldn't make it herself?).
Maybe if LE does respond, we could ask for comments, if any, they have on the accuracy of the above descriptions of LS? Also, whether they were able to test the vomit for any DNA and if so, whether it was conclusory? I doubt they will give anything new for the first question and have very little hope they will comment on the second one, but hey, worth a shot! Thank you again kpeacock for reaching out to LE.
Snipped by me, hope thats okay. I think everything you posted is an important point, hopefully we'll get clarification from LE or from the suit moving forward.
I think that the Spierers are playing along with the 5N boys to some extent. They can't prove that the 5N boys are responsible for her death and/or disappearance, so I take this section to pretty much say "Fine, you say you're telling the truth and Lauren left on her own, alive. Even if thats true, you're still responsible for xyz".
I really think they're just giving the boys enough rope to hang themselves with (pardon the expression), by accepting the version that the boys have put forth they're challenging them to justify it and stick by what they originally said. They want to prove that their story doesn't hold water, that even if it is true, the boys have things to answer for. Personally, I think they're hoping that this puts enough pressure on the boys to crack/give something away.
It is possible that Lauren left on her own and met with something awful at the hands of a stranger/someone who hasn't been mentioned, but the various versions of the story have made that pretty difficult to believe, and I think the Spierers are looking to see if the boys can stick with their stories, and justify their actions
SeeingForThe1stTime
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I had decided, for the most part but not necessarily had my mind made up 100%, that the boys took LS out and just left her somewhere for someone else to deal with. I don't think it occurred to them that she was going to be picked up by someone intent on doing her harm, I think they just didn't want to deal with her or want the responsibility and that was their answer. Then whoever came across her thought she would be a good target for a SA and they either killed her or she died.
Ixchel13
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BBM # it's common knowledge that CR, LS and (?) left JR's and went over to CR's for almost an hour before going to Kilroy's. Usually when people break off from a party and go somewhere privately, it's to do something the rest are not doing.
The vomiting part is simple, MB is telling the police that they will find forensic evidence not of Lauren, but CR. This shows an acute awareness that they will be under a microscope and that yes, CR vomited. doubtful it would be Lauren's vomit.
BBM#2 of course that's what the Spierers are saying! Lauren could easily have been grabbed by any number of creepy people in that area at that time of night. No Mater What Happens, they are guilty of turning someone loose on the street in no condition to make it home and a sitting duck for any predator.
That's what I think the "test" JR did to test her sobriety was all about, him making it seem like he thought she was ok, even if she wasn't, and the fact that he told LE he was drunk (9 or 10 shots of vodka). So it won't seem like he should have been able to make a decision.
So whether or not they are ever found guilty of murder or hiding a body, they will be held responsible for her demise, rightly so.
But.....IMO, they should go back further, to the altercation, because if someone could prove she felt forced to leave or felt unsafe to stay, those people who made her feel like she had to leave should be convicted also. But, no one seems to want to go there, and I think it's because her roommate(s) were involved. Possibly even POIs--the phone, did any of her roommates call that danged phone? that would make them suspect for lying and saying they didn't know she was missing! and possibly covering for someone.
Also, I do not agree with Abbey and think there was another altercation at 10th and College and it involved another person not yet mentioned, or someone not being focused on that has been mentioned.. Oh, yeah, there's a can of worms at 10th and College that needs opening. IMO, MOO, speculation, and deduction.
So do you think that the private investigators (who have interviewed witnesses, seen video and spoken with the POI) are wrong about identifying the person with Lauren as Corey Rossman? Or do you think that there were two, virtually identical events in the exact same location, where a man threw Lauren over his shoulder and engaged with the same passing witness... only once it was Corey and once it was someone else?
I have always been curious as to what prompted the landfill search, something credible must have been shared with LE that prompted such a huge undertaking. She's so tiny that I hope they didn't miss her. I wish they would've checked all of the sections of the landfill but I'm sure that would've been cost-prohibitive.
I'm really hoping that something will break soon so that Lauren can come home.
I'm really hoping that something will break soon so that Lauren can come home.
That has always worried me too. It didn't seem like LE necessarily wanted to search at first despite public pressure/rumors so I definitely agree there must have been something credible. I can imagine that the search itself might be difficult let alone other complications - like what if they pegged the wrong dumpster and weren't even in the right area? Hopefully there was only one or two options that have routes that would have permitted someone to get to it without cameras/witnesses catching them at some point.
I think everyone is with you on the second statement. In HB's case, LE/TBI was silent for a LONG time before making an arrest (seemingly out of nowhere!) and without really indicating whether they found HB or not, so I've been hoping something similar might happen soon for LS.
Ixchel13
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I don't think any of that. The PIs correctly id'd CR with Lauren but not at 3:38.
She emerged from that alley w. CR earlier, before 3 a.m. or right after.
We are not being informed about part of the timeline for some reason. The events couldn't have been virtually identical nor was it the same passing witness.
Not knocking the PIs, but as we have seen and heard, they definitely "knocked" our LE, calling our police chief Barney Fife (SP). So, we can surmise the PIs didn't get much from our LE. So, are we to believe the witnesses /POIs were more forthcoming with the PIs then they were with LE?
I'm guessing they got the same stonewall. So, I'm going to go way out there and say they are as flummoxed and frustrated as everyone else and could very well be confused. I know they have them sitting on the steps, then getting up, moving up the alley and THEN knocking on ZC's door, which
couldn't happen unless they moved away from the alley and turned left and walked to 10th and College Village on Morton St. Which is a lot of walking when you're carrying someone, and didn't the PI's say "they" knocked on ZC's door? Can't knock on any 10th and College door w/o being buzzed in, 10th and College Village has townhouse doors like 5N and can be knocked on.
So. two separate events at 10th and College, IMO. And 2 separate witnesses. IMO, ZC is the other witness, and IMO, the one who saw Lauren hit her head. JMO, IMO, MOO, speculation, theory.
But LE specifically said that the encounter did not happen at 3:38, but an hour earlier.
And TG has confirmed that the witness he was describing, who reportedly saw the Mystery man throw Lauren over his shoulders, is the same witness that the PIs interviewed, who saw Corey Rossman throw Lauren over his shoulders.
With the revision of the time from LE, this totally makes sense, as all other evidence shows CR was the one with Lauren before and after.
Plus, The PI's specifically said that ZC was sleeping and didn't answer the door, didn't they?
So it doesn't really fit that there are two separate similar encounters.
Last Thursday something terrible happened to another IU student named Lauren. Lauren Gill was critically injured while practicing for the women's Little 500. But in this case, her friends (nursing students) immediately went to her aid and stayed with her until an ambulance arrived. Her parents know what happened and where she is (in an Indianapolis Hospital). One of her friends has started a fundraising site on Fundly to raise money to cover expenses for her recovery not covered by insurance.
Reading about this incident makes me think of how the night might have ended differently for Lauren Spierer if her friends had sought medical advice when she was unable to walk unaided.
I hope that one day the Spierer family will have the answers they seek.
I also hope that kpeacock can at least get some of the reporting discrepancies resolved.
Reading about this incident makes me think of how the night might have ended differently for Lauren Spierer if her friends had sought medical advice when she was unable to walk unaided.
I hope that one day the Spierer family will have the answers they seek.
I also hope that kpeacock can at least get some of the reporting discrepancies resolved.
Ixchel13
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now it's my turn to ask for links. Where is the one that has TG refuting his own
statements? the original mystery man does not in any way fit CR's description.
Zoe Camp said she was sleeping. The PIs have no way of knowing if that's true.
Again, I never said the encounters were similar. 2 separate, distinct, and
very different encounters.
A theory: For some reason, in their flight to 5N from the initial altercation at
SW, Lauren and CR try to get into ZC's apt, but are rebuffed. No one comes to the door, but again, IMO, they knew she was trying to get in. LS and CR go up to CR's, CR starts passing out, whatever, and that's when MB comes in and thinks there's a burglar. He takes over, and while he's up there, Lauren goes back down to 10th and College, now it's 3:38. MB comes downstairs, finds Lauren gone. that fits with his "multiple scenarios". Lauren has another altercation down at 10th and College and hits her head hard on the concrete.
A witness sees this. One of "the unknown" picks Lauren up and carries her back up to 5N. This is the mystery man. Now, Lauren is badly injured at JR's and MB comes back over, or is already at JR's, and they start making phone calls. Or,
maybe mystery man takes her to MB's and that's when he walks her back over, making all 3 of his stories correct but leaving out the second
trip Lauren made to 10th and College. This is taken care of by the amnesia of CR, who "can't remember" the first trip to 10th and College making it convenient for everyone to just act like the second trip back down there
by Lauren, alone, where she was seriously injured, didn't happen.
Or, there could have been someone with her who was already at JR's and who went back down with her and he's the mystery man.
For some reason, Lauren wanted in Zoe Camp's apt. People have assumed it was drugs but I don't think so. She either thought they had her phone, or maybe wanted to know what they might have told JW. The 5N scenario is just too neat. Had to be something else there if this wasn't a random abduction. IMO, the entire night's events should be taken consecutively, with attention and importance to each thing that happened, not just yanking things out that are convenient just to keep the 5N POI scenario neat.
It could have been that she was arguing with someone at 10th and College, fell and hit her head and they panicked and dropped her at JR's. The original altercation at SW might not have ended as neatly as has been thought. just sayin.
He acknowledged that most of his information was not reliable, if you read his posts here.
Specifically about the LoHud Video, when asked about the witness, he replied:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8387998&postcount=446"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28[/ame]
He also says the description from the witness didn't match CR, but the time he said she gave was also wrong, according to LE.
The bottom line is, LE acknowledged the encounter described by Gatto happened with someone they had identified (they were not naming CR at that point), just not at the time he said. They also said there was no encounter with Lauren at that spot at 3:38, but an hour earlier, which coincides with the PI timeline.
The PI's then describe the exact same encounter as Gatto, based on the same witness's story and video surveillance, and they identify the person as Corey Rossman. This isn't really surprising, since he was also captured on video picking Lauren up and taking her out of Smallwood a few minutes earlier, and then she ends up alone with him at his house a few minutes afterward, according to the reports.
So, there is nothing that suggests there is actually a mystery man, or that somehow that the same scene repeated itself twice. (You are referring similar events, since you are talking about the supposed mystery man who the witness saw with Lauren at 10th and college, the info that came from Gatto - which is the same story that came from the PI's). What this does suggest, IMO, is that the witness and/or Gatto got some of the details wrong. This is not surprising, IMO, since witnesses often get details like this wrong, and Tony Gatto may not have experience interviewing witnesses or doing investigative journalism. The witness account is supported though, by the other witness reports and video that tell virtually the same story from before and after.
BBM. Why wouldn't JR or MB mention a mystery man if they were both at 5N and Lauren got injured elsewhere? For your theory to work, JR and MB (and CR) would be taking all of the suspicion and heat for someone else, what would their reason be for doing that? If they did indeed have burner phones couldn't they have called 911 and said that they stumbled across some girl in an alleyway who appeared to be injured? IMO it doesn't make sense that the 5N boys put themselves at the center of all of this if they weren't even present when Lauren was injured or killed.
Also, from the reports from LE, PIs and JR, I really find it hard to believe that Lauren left on her own to get her phone. I don't think she physically could have, and I don't think she was in any shape to even remember she didn't have her phone, let alone think of who might have it and then walk to their apartment.
I really don't think ZC figures into this in any meaningful way. Maybe she had been with HT earlier or something so they knocked on her door hoping she would still be awake and HT might be there. Maybe CR was hoping to make Lauren ZC's problem, much the same way that he made her MB's problem and then JR's. Just like there is no proof other than her word and the word of the PIs that ZC was asleep, there is even less proof that she was awake and knew Lauren was downstairs.
Co-signed.
I 100% agree. LS lost her shoes, wallet, phone, and could barely stand by some accounts. Regardless if you think some descriptions of her might be exaggerated, she was clearly out of it. I don't think she was thinking about her phone either.
ZC was at JR's party, but that's about it. She is also friends with the 5N POIs so her opinion on their innocence is probably biased.
http://www.lohud.com/article/201305...en-Spierer-case-3-men-scapegoated-friend-says
RE: mystery man.
I think there are plenty of media links explaining that the mystery man was most likely CR:
(from the same article) http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477
Not sure what the deal is with being buzzed in vs knocking. Maybe ringing the doorbell = trying to get buzzed in.
Along with the link I already posted...: http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477
LE cannot support the mystery man account. They looked into it. Not supported.
PI interviewed TG's witness, where the rumor originated. Abbey has already pointed out that TG has since qualified statements. PI basically said that the witness got the timeframe wrong and it was CR. This would be in line with LE too - LE can't verify with video evidence because the witness got the time wrong.
Also, the link I used has official statements from MB's attorney on his stories that were NOT true/complete lies as well as comments MB made to a neighbor, VS, which is why it is SO important for people to tell what they have heard even if they weren't present! I know we have mentioned his changing stories but I thought it was good to link to them too.
Ixchel13
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Sammi, Abbey, and Holly, I appreciate the links, but I just have to reiterate IMO, and remember, all IMO, MOO, etc, there was something else after JR's.
No one has addressed the fact that you can not, I repeat, can not, it is not possible, to ring someone's doorbell at 10th and College without being buzzed in. So, something is wrong with that whole, entire story about them stopping off to ring Zoe's doorbell. And yes, I do think she is lying about something.
You can ring a doorbell at 10th and College Village, next door, and it can be accessed by the alley they emerged from, by turning left and walking to Morton St. and turning left again. But! the witness, at least the first witness, said they were sitting on the steps by the big clock, which is right in front. The PI's say they were sitting there, then walked up the alley and rang a doorbell. But that can't happen. have to be buzzed in. So, no one can convince me with what you have brought forth so far that there isn't something way, way fishy about the timeline and the whole head smack story. But if it happened later, it would make perfect sense.:twocents:
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