IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

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went web trolling for crimes at Kilroys, found a Feb.,2009 stabbing inside, not fatal, but I can't seem to find the other stabbing, more serious, that occurred outside in the front, not the homeless guy, either. The 2009 stabbing was a guy who was stabbed in the leg by a local.
There was a report of a 30 yr. old woman at Kilroy's bashing a 24 yr.woman in the head with a glass mug, sending her to the hospital with bloody lacerations. Her reason? The woman accidentally bumped into her while dancing. The 30 yr. old had previous convictions of forgery, theft, disorderly conduct and fraud. This is what I mean about the kind of people hanging out at these bars and preying on the younger ones. This woman was a seasoned criminal in theft.
Kilroys opened a bar up in Broad Ripple in Indy, but not w/o a prolonged fight. Citizens for A Drug Free Marion County listed assault and criminal activity
combined with a high level of alcohol sales and sales to minors as the main reasons they didn't want Kilroy's up there. Guess $$$ talks because they were approved despite the numerous, prolific citations they have received from illegal alcohol sales.
Joshua Isiah Thomas, son of the famous Isiah Thomas BB player and IU alumni, was charged with being underaged and intoxicated at Kilroy's in 2008.
Apparently, he was ordering a drink at the bar and started to talk to a man, who bashed him in the head with a beer bottle, splitting his eye open. And gee, no one would be a witness. Just Thomas was charged with being underaged and disorderly, and Kilroy's of course received their usual, ineffective citation.
So let's not say criminals are not in these bars, and that all these upstanding employees would definitely help someone in trouble, though in all fairness, most would. IMO, from what I know from experience, the person who hit Thomas in the head was probably known to the employees.
 
Most of the bars/pubs I have been to in the last 5 years have cameras at multiple points in and out of the building. I assume there were no cameras there?
 
imkeylime said:
Thanks, Ros. I find the differing tone of the motions (as described) by JR and MB interesting. Maybe it's just me, but JR's motion almost seems flippant, IMO, and CR's more contemplative. I suppose that has more to do with the attorneys than anything.

Also, does it seem likely to anyone that what transpired earlier in the night, i.e., before LS arrived at JR's the first time and subsequently went to Sports, is what the privacy is about?
Click to expand...

I read somewhere, I'll try to go back and find the link. that the reason the Spierers are asking for a seal order, or I should say that the reason that they are giving for asking for a seal order, is to protect the integrity of the investigation.
If that is true, then clearly, there are some significant facts that we still don't know. Absolutely maddening to think about.
 
AbbeyR said:
I'm guessing that's when his parents/ lawyer came into the picture.
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No doubt.

I've always wondered one thing about JW and the day Lauren was reported missing, it's probably been covered (and recovered and re-recovered) before but I've never seen it addressed. I've always wondered why JW needed the key to Lauren's apartment. I mean, why not just go knock on the door, if she was there she would answer, if she wasn't there she wouldn't. Why does he need to gain entry to find out if she was there? I've always wondered if there wasn't some other reason for him needing to actually get in her apartment before he reported her missing. I'm not insinuating that any reason he might have had would make him more - or less - likely to be involved, it's just a detail that I found odd. If he was really worried that she was missing, it would seem like the time for covering up and "protecting" her drug use (if that was even the case at all) had passed and the time for revealing a true and honest picture of Laurens activities would have been an obvious priority.
 
SeeingForThe1stTime said:
No doubt.

I've always wondered one thing about JW and the day Lauren was reported missing, it's probably been covered (and recovered and re-recovered) before but I've never seen it addressed. I've always wondered why JW needed the key to Lauren's apartment. I mean, why not just go knock on the door, if she was there she would answer, if she wasn't there she wouldn't. Why does he need to gain entry to find out if she was there? I've always wondered if there wasn't some other reason for him needing to actually get in her apartment before he reported her missing. <snipped>.
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Well, he had probably heard rumors from the night before at that point, so would be aware that Lauren was in really bad shape when she was last seen. He may have been worried that she was passed out (or worse) in her room. If I was worried that someone had not made it home the night before, I would want to be sure they weren't just sound asleep in their bed before I started looking for help, calling around or going to the police. JMO
 
Ixchel13 said:
well, he got the lawyer after he and his dad, JW and his dad to make it clear,
went over and accused CR of killing his girlfriend.

As I am reading back through newspaper articles, I am reminded that at first, when LE talked to the people involved, from DR to ZO and the altercation, and CR, JR, and MB, they stated numerous times that they had no suspects.

Let's don't give any lectures about POI vs. suspect, that train has left the station too many times here.

At the beginning, LE seemed to believe the story line somewhat. Then you had Gatto, false witnesses, JW's dad, etc. The POIs at 5N became the de fault suspects and not the de facto suspects.

Although they may be guilty, there is no evidence whatsoever other than
the idea put forth that Lauren couldn't function. And of course the very potent verdict of public opinion, which has already tried them and found them guilty.

If you take that court of public opinion chronologically, even before any camera footage of the alley you have the very (UN!)reliable statements from the employees at Kilroys who claim they kicked Lauren out for being too intoxicated. Not for having the fake ID they allowed her in with and served her at least 3 drinks with. They said she was saying how many drugs she
was on, coke, xanax, etc.

First, it was closing time. Everyone gets kicked out and not politely. If you don't drink up and leave, they will take your drink, pour it out, and tell you to get out.

Second, they had alot to lose. They served someone underage who was already intoxicated, and LE knew it. No way Lauren would get a fair review
from anyone at Kilroys.

Third, Kilroys had just created the beach theme with sand and umbrellas, yet right after Lauren's case broke, they closed down completely, scattering customers and employees that could be potential witnesses. Out of sight, out of mind around here. They only garnered a citation for serving an underage
patron, wow, they could fill an entire wall if they framed those citations, and another wall of violent crime citations from customers fighting and this includes townies, in fact, the most violent crimes are committed by townies in these bars not students. I can remember one knifing, a townie knifed and I think killed a student right in the front sidewalk outside of Kilroys. Reason?
Why the smart aleck student said something the guy didn't like. Was this alcohol fuelled violence? absolutely.

CR was not hiding Lauren and trying to drag her to his apt. He brought her home in front of everyone, and was knocked down and kicked by several guys while on the ground, and when he left with Lauren, not one of her friends tried to keep her there.

Lauren was drunk, but so was everyone else. Were they as drunk as she was? I'm thinking yes they were. Yet they were all staggering around to these 3 nor 4 parties. I don't believe ANY of these people. I don't believe Lauren was the last person standing, super drunk and high and everyone else had gone to bed. That notion is ridiculous. When these kids start partying like this, they all party until they pass out somewhere.

I don't believe any of the rigamarole about her never even making it to JRs,
but definitely believe that some of these people could have been responsible for her demise after she left there. Maybe this is what the Spierer's are after.
I could see someone hurting Lauren who wasn't in their main cliques, like a guest from out of town, before I could see her main group of peeps harming her.

On another note, the other day I was talking to a coed and she said a few weeks ago, her friend was super drunk, walking home from the bars after closing, and asked a pizza guy who was parked at a curb for a ride home and he gave it. That gave me the chills. Pizza guy has always been at the back of my random theories.
Pizza places are one of the main places that hire sex offenders. I found our Jack's pizza guy in Indy on the sex offenders register!
I seriously wonder just how many random guys hang around in that area just hoping to get lucky, not to harm any girl per se, but just to see if the right coed walks by, inebriated enough to accept help from a total stranger.
The idea that there aren't weirdos, and not rarely, out in that area, at that time of night is just wishful thinking. The idea that there weren't others with motive and opportunity within the larger group that night is also wishful thinking. I could see any of these guys following Lauren or coming upon her after she left, because JMO, she did leave.
This case, IMO, won't be wrapped up neatly with just those 3 5N POIs. If they know something more, this trial may be very helpful. With the evidence presented so far, if that's what logical thinking based on what's happened to others in the past in the same situation is called, I can't condemn them as guilty of disposing of their friend's body. Even more, I can't accuse them of not just raping, but gang raping, their friend. That is pure speculation regardless of statistics.
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I may be wrong, but I thought that Kilroy's was open until 3 a.m.
 
SeeingForThe1stTime said:
No doubt.

I've always wondered one thing about JW and the day Lauren was reported missing, it's probably been covered (and recovered and re-recovered) before but I've never seen it addressed. I've always wondered why JW needed the key to Lauren's apartment. I mean, why not just go knock on the door, if she was there she would answer, if she wasn't there she wouldn't. Why does he need to gain entry to find out if she was there? I've always wondered if there wasn't some other reason for him needing to actually get in her apartment before he reported her missing. I'm not insinuating that any reason he might have had would make him more - or less - likely to be involved, it's just a detail that I found odd. If he was really worried that she was missing, it would seem like the time for covering up and "protecting" her drug use (if that was even the case at all) had passed and the time for revealing a true and honest picture of Laurens activities would have been an obvious priority.
Click to expand...

How is Smallwood set up for receiving visitors? Is it possible to ring an apartment from the entrance?

For all we know, he may have gone there first and not gotten an answer. Although I can no longer find a source, I recall reading that he was the only one who knew about the Long QT. He may have gone to her apartment to see if she had been there, taken her medication, and left vs. not being there at all. And, as you mention, he could have gone there to leave or remove (depending on his motives) evidence of drug use.
 
AbbeyR said:
Well, he had probably heard rumors from the night before at that point, so would be aware that Lauren was in really bad shape when she was last seen. He may have been worried that she was passed out (or worse) in her room. If I was worried that someone had not made it home the night before, I would want to be sure they weren't just sound asleep in their bed before I started looking for help, calling around or going to the police. JMO
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Yeah, that makes sense and I had thought about that but at what point would he, or anyone else, been aware that she didn't have a key to get into the apartment?
 
SeeingForThe1stTime said:
No doubt.

I've always wondered one thing about JW and the day Lauren was reported missing, it's probably been covered (and recovered and re-recovered) before but I've never seen it addressed. I've always wondered why JW needed the key to Lauren's apartment. I mean, why not just go knock on the door, if she was there she would answer, if she wasn't there she wouldn't. Why does he need to gain entry to find out if she was there? I've always wondered if there wasn't some other reason for him needing to actually get in her apartment before he reported her missing. I'm not insinuating that any reason he might have had would make him more - or less - likely to be involved, it's just a detail that I found odd. If he was really worried that she was missing, it would seem like the time for covering up and "protecting" her drug use (if that was even the case at all) had passed and the time for revealing a true and honest picture of Laurens activities would have been an obvious priority.
Click to expand...

I agree with AbbeyR - gossip travels fast in these circles, and news of the fight/punch between CR and ZO could have reached JW very quickly. Texts, social media, etc. I think it's likely he heard from friends about the fight and Lauren's condition that night, couldn't get a hold of her, and went for her room key.

Does anyone else remember reading a forum post on TheBort.com from JW's brother, just a day or two after Lauren disappeared? It's referenced here: http://tinyurl.com/m64seoa (cached version of page)

I can't get back to the original post, but it was along the lines of JW's brother stating that JW was extremely upset about LS, that his Dad was there with him, the brother's concern over JW's mental state and that he'd need a lot of emotional support, and that the family planned to bring him home as soon as they could because they were worried about him. Anyone else remember or have access to this post?

That post has stuck with me. When questions are raised about why JW didn't stick around Bloomington to help, I remember that a) LE told him he couldn't be part of search teams and B) his family probably made some of these decisions for him (i.e. get him out of a volatile situation, protect him, get him a lawyer, etc.)
 
kpeacock said:
Does anyone else remember reading a forum post on TheBort.com from JW's brother, just a day or two after Lauren disappeared? It's referenced here: http://tinyurl.com/m64seoa (cached version of page)

I can't get back to the original post, but it was along the lines of JW's brother stating that JW was extremely upset about LS, that his Dad was there with him, the brother's concern over JW's mental state and that he'd need a lot of emotional support, and that the family planned to bring him home as soon as they could because they were worried about him. Anyone else remember or have access to this post?
Click to expand...

Well, I answered my own question - just needed to scroll farther down the page. :) Here's what JW's brother said on that forum (http://tinyurl.com/m64seoa):

"She has not turned up yet. I was going to fly out there to be with my brother, but my folks got there first and we all made the right decision for me to hold off; he is going to fly back to NY with them in a couple of days assuming she doesn't turn up. I had a candid conversation with him, and he definitely gets that this is not going to end for a long time. The kid can't even go to a bar or restaurant without seeing her face on a flyer, so this is definitely what's best. He is going to be very ****ed up for a long time, and it's really easy for people to be there for him when the **** hits the fan, but months/years from now he'll still be ****ed and he'll def need me then. That said, I was planning on flying to NY for Camp Bisco here next month anyway, so instead I'm going to just take two weeks and hang with him and the rest of my family and friends for some time in and around CBX, which just makes more sense for everybody. Thanks for your support guys, but this is looking more and more grim by the hour. I'll be sure to keep you guys posted. Sorry for the TLDR."
 
kpeacock said:
Well, I answered my own question - just needed to scroll farther down the page. :) Here's what JW's brother said on that forum (http://tinyurl.com/m64seoa):

"She has not turned up yet. I was going to fly out there to be with my brother, but my folks got there first and we all made the right decision for me to hold off; he is going to fly back to NY with them in a couple of days assuming she doesn't turn up. I had a candid conversation with him, and he definitely gets that this is not going to end for a long time. The kid can't even go to a bar or restaurant without seeing her face on a flyer, so this is definitely what's best. He is going to be very ****ed up for a long time, and it's really easy for people to be there for him when the **** hits the fan, but months/years from now he'll still be ****ed and he'll def need me then. That said, I was planning on flying to NY for Camp Bisco here next month anyway, so instead I'm going to just take two weeks and hang with him and the rest of my family and friends for some time in and around CBX, which just makes more sense for everybody. Thanks for your support guys, but this is looking more and more grim by the hour. I'll be sure to keep you guys posted. Sorry for the TLDR."
Click to expand...

i think JW knew that she had overdosed and they dumped the body. otherwise, why would he not be more hopeful? 'he definitely gets that this is not going to end for a long time'----seems to suggest that he knew roughly what happened and suspicion was going to go on for awhile.
 
Hmmm, I'm not sure that's what I read into "he gets that it's not going to end for a long time." To me, coming from a family member, I take it to mean something like "in any case, whether she's found or not, the trauma and investigation into the disappearance would have long lasting effects."

Of course, I always leave room for the possibility that JW was involved. I lean more towards that he heard rumors and gossip that lead him to the worst conclusions, though.
 
Ros said:
Here's a link to the article that said that JW knew about the long QT but HT did not know:

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...tion-compounds-concerns-about-cocaine-alcohol

But LS's friend BL knew about it too, or at least she did three days after LS disappeared.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lauren-spi...ity-student-heart-condition/story?id=13772510

So it is strange that HT did not know.
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Re: BL knowing and HT not: I don't think it's altogether that strange, but rather, validates that HT was a roommate and BL a best friend. My daughter has a health concern that very few of her friends, apart from her long-time best friend, know about. I think she'd just rather not have it, and because she feels that way, she seldom talks about it. Sometimes it's hard for these young women to feel different, even if it's a small difference.

My guess is that LS shared it with her inner circle, which HT wasn't a part of. Although I do think it's kind of odd that LS never left medication laying around that HT might have asked about. ???
 
imkeylime said:
Re: BL knowing and HT not: I don't think it's altogether that strange, but rather, validates that HT was a roommate and BL a best friend. My daughter has a health concern that very few of her friends, apart from her long-time best friend, know about. I think she'd just rather not have it, and because she feels that way, she seldom talks about it. Sometimes it's hard for these young women to feel different, even if it's a small difference.

My guess is that LS shared it with her inner circle, which HT wasn't a part of. Although I do think it's kind of odd that LS never left medication laying around that HT might have asked about. ???
Click to expand...

This makes sense to me. I have asthma, which was fairly bad when I was a little kid and most of my friends don't know about it because I don't consider it a huge deal and it doesn't exactly pop up in conversation. Friends I've had since I was 5 know about it, but it wouldn't occur to me to mention it to friends I've made in my teens/since then.
I'm not sure exactly how long Lauren and HT had known each other, but I know Lauren and BL had known each other for a long time. I personally find some of HT's behavior strange and a little suspicious, but I wouldn't read too much into her not knowing about Lauren's heart condition
HT might have known she took medication, but the explanation could have been as simple as "oh its for a heart thing", HT probably wouldn't have asked about the exact name/symptoms if it didn't have an impact on lauren's day to day life other than taking a pill a day
 
holly18 said:
\ ... I'm not sure exactly how long Lauren and HT had known each other, but I know Lauren and BL had known each other for a long time. I personally find some of HT's behavior strange and a little suspicious, but I wouldn't read too much into her not knowing about Lauren's heart condition ...
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Snipped by me. I agree about HT's behavior ... and don't really know how to explain it. But I don't think every roommate becomes a BFF (which doesn't mean they weren't friends).

I guess what strikes me is that HT made the claim about LS "going too far" (whatever that really means) without knowing about her long QT. Whether she really believed that or was trying to divert blame is a legitimate question, IMO.
 
imkeylime said:
Snipped by me. I agree about HT's behavior ... and don't really know how to explain it. But I don't think every roommate becomes a BFF (which doesn't mean they weren't friends).

I guess what strikes me is that HT made the claim about LS "going too far" (whatever that really means) without knowing about her long QT. Whether she really believed that or was trying to divert blame is a legitimate question, IMO.
Click to expand...

I could not agree more. I think what bothers me about her behavior is how quick she was to comment and side with JR. I understand that she was friends with JR and roommates (and friends of some sort) with Lauren and that has to be a difficult position to be in, and I can understand that at some point mutual friends are going to take "sides"/believe the Spierers or JR/CR, but HT chose to believe JR so quickly it gives me pause. I don't remember how quickly she made the "going too far" comment, but it was very soon after Lauren had disappeared. I find it odd that she would not only immediately side with JR, but would publicly do so, and at Lauren's expense.

If HT had only the information that we had in the early weeks (Lauren was drunk, wanted to party, JR watched her walk off, she disappeared), wouldn't she wait at least a few days to hear Lauren's side of the story? IMO she knew lauren wasn't going to come back or be found. HT essentially appointed herself JR's spokesperson, if she had no knowledge of what happened to lauren wouldn't she be concerned that Lauren would come home, read what HT said and be hurt that HT had immediately sided with JR and criticized Lauren? She seemed to know that this wasn't going to quickly blow over, and started doing damage control immediately

Also your point about her saying "going too far" without knowledge of Lauren's long QT hadn't really occurred to me before, its an important point, imo. Before we knew how bad Lauren's condition really was that night (ie she's on tape falling headfirst, black eyes, CR carrying her) I think one of the main reasons people thought that she had passed away was at least partly because of her long qt. If HT had no idea about Lauren's long qt, and didn't know how vital it was that she not miss a dose of medication, why was she so sure Lauren hadn't gone off willingly/ had amnesia/etc? If you take the long qt out of the equation and go back to June 5th or 6th, why wouldn't it be possible that Lauren was still alive?

I'm not sure if this makes sense to anyone but me, HT's early actions just seem (IMO) like she knew what happened and was aggressively trying to get her/JR/CR's version out there and discredit lauren.
 
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