IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[doubtingthomas]

This is a question for those who live in Btown. Is there any way JW could have gone from his house/apt to 5N via auto or walking and never be seen on camera? It has been stated earlier in post that LS was staying in Btown waiting for JW's classes to end and ride back to NY with him. So, somebody help me understand this. You are waiting for your boyfriend(as far as we know he still was) to ride home with, yet you go partying with a group to the Indy 500 without the boyfriend. Then 4 days later you are partying again with same group without boyfriend. Wouldn't that make for a long ride home? Other questions I have concerning JW are:

when did he get the call from bar about cell phone
when did he contact HT about key to apt
did he contact any 5N guys before or after going to LS apt
when did he notify LE she was missing

If all of this happened within a 3-4 hour window wouldn't that be a little suspicious. I think this is why he should be considered at the top of the POI list. IMO

 

[holly18]

Yes, I can see it this way too... I genuinely don't know what to think of those early statements from HT. But, I just can't imagine why, if JR was involved in Lauren's disappearance, he would tell HT the story. To me it sounded like he told her the story he knew would be passed on to others - that's why he included the details like 'he had run out of alcohol' etc., which obviously weren't key details when the goal is to find a missing friend. But who knows. It is a bit strange that the assumption from the beginning (from everyone involved) seems to have been that Lauren was gone

That makes sense too. I think its hard to figure it out without knowing more about HT. It is possible that she just bought his story hook line and sinker and went out to defend him, but who really knows. Maybe she had a thing for JR, maybe he had something that convinced her to side with him, maybe she really did believe him. I think thats odd but there are so many things that are odd with this case that I wouldn't be surprised if she really just didn't think about it and did as he asked/did what she thought he wanted.

I want to know why the assumption was that she was gone for good, I hate hate hate the idea that all these people know that she passed away, and have known since the beginning and still haven't spoken up at all.

 

[holly18]

This is a question for those who live in Btown. Is there any way JW could have gone from his house/apt to 5N via auto or walking and never be seen on camera? It has been stated earlier in post that LS was staying in Btown waiting for JW's classes to end and ride back to NY with him. So, somebody help me understand this. You are waiting for your boyfriend(as far as we know he still was) to ride home with, yet you go partying with a group to the Indy 500 without the boyfriend. Then 4 days later you are partying again with same group without boyfriend. Wouldn't that make for a long ride home? Other questions I have concerning JW are:

when did he get the call from bar about cell phone
when did he contact HT about key to apt
did he contact any 5N guys before or after going to LS apt
when did he notify LE she was missing

If all of this happened within a 3-4 hour window wouldn't that be a little suspicious. I think this is why he should be considered at the top of the POI list. IMO

I know he contacted HT in the morning, I believe there was something about a friend who needed a ride to an early morning class and thats when he picked up the keys. He also got the call about her phone the next morning/early afternoon and I believe he called the spierers and eventually the police soon after that. I'd be interested to know what the spierers told him to do when he spoke to rob. If they told him to wait to call the police but he did it anyway, I would find that weird/suspicious

Also Lauren staying in Bloomington just to wait for JW always sounded to me a little like an excuse you'd make to your parents.... Instead of saying you want to stay and hang out/party with friends (and presumably the boyfriend as well) you might say you were waiting for a ride back home because it was sensible.... I remember right after my sophomore year of college I told my parents I was going to stay on campus for a few more days to rest after finals and it would take me a while to pack my stuff up, when I was really staying because campus was a lot of fun the week of graduation.

 

[akh]

Incoherent and unable to walk comes from private investigators who viewed multiple videos of lauren where she was unable to walk without falling
Do you think the private investigators are embellishing or basking in the attention? When people can't walk without falling, hit their heads, and then fall face first without putting their arms up to stop themselves I think that constitutes bad shape.

I don't think we know the PI's have seen videos. In fact it would be surprising if LE shared videos with them.

And I didn't find their telling of the story to make LS to be as incoherent as some here are saying. Particularly when the PI says she was 'alive and well'. He did qualify that but really threw cold water on the idea that she was already incapacitated at that point.

Lauren not being on video is one thing, even if she made it out of 5N she didn't have very far to walk. JW walking around tracking lauren down, either killing her or finding her already dead, and then disposing of her body was also not caught on video. Obviously not everything is caught on video but if JW is responsible he's either incredibly lucky, or spent a long time mapping out every camera in bloomington and had this whole thing planned.

Or knew or suspected correctly where she was at and waiting on her. If he'd learned of the Indy 500 meeting, suspected anything, and was jealous enough to follow thru then he wouldn't have to go searching if he thought he could catch her leaving 5N. He wouldn't have even needed to be planning to do anything but catch her in a lie the next morning when he asks where she was the night before. But he sees her and snaps. It wouldn't be the first time this type of scenario has played out in the world.

You keep saying "we have no evidence", I don't entirely disagree but we have a fair amount of evidence from the POIs and their lawyers, and the spierer's lawsuit and the Private investigators. We do know what JR and CR's stories are, not in vivid detail but we have the framework. From that framework I think it is impossible that she left 5N as JR says she did. If JW is guilty why is JR lying?

The accuracy of all of that is not certain at all. What we really need to see is what is in police statements all along. And what JR told the Spierers. You only assume JR is lying. That let's you move onto the next phase.... But what if he's telling the truth and your assumption is wrong?

 

[holly18]

I don't think we know the PI's have seen videos. In fact it would be surprising if LE shared videos with them.

And I didn't find their telling of the story to make LS to be as incoherent as some here are saying. Particularly when the PI says she was 'alive and well'. He did qualify that but really threw cold water on the idea that she was already incapacitated at that point.



Or knew or suspected correctly where she was at and waiting on her. If he'd learned of the Indy 500 meeting, suspected anything, and was jealous enough to follow thru then he wouldn't have to go searching if he thought he could catch her leaving 5N. He wouldn't have even needed to be planning to do anything but catch her in a lie the next morning when he asks where she was the night before. But he sees her and snaps. It wouldn't be the first time this type of scenario has played out in the world.



The accuracy of all of that is not certain at all. What we really need to see is what is in police statements all along. And what JR told the Spierers. You only assume JR is lying. That let's you move onto the next phase.... But what if he's telling the truth and your assumption is wrong?

The private investigators said that they saw the videos. Are you assuming they are lying? And I'm sorry, but there is nothing that will convince me that someone who is falling multiple times, and fails to put their arms out to break their fall is not incapacitated. JR himself said that lauren had a black eye or was beginning to get one by the time she made it back to 5N.

I have not said that I think its impossible for JW to be guilty. I have explained multiple times that I believe it is implausible, but still possible. As I've also said multiple times, I personally do not believe that Lauren was well enough to leave 5N the way JR says she did.

And as I said in a previous post, if my assumption is wrong and JR is telling the truth and we get some sort of proof or evidence about that, I'll change my theory. You're responding to me as though I'm saying "5N certainly did it and JW is innocent", I am not saying that in any way shape or form. I don't believe large parts of the 5N story, and I think it is unlikely that JW would have managed to pull this off on his own. If something happened to Lauren either at 5N or on the way there with CR they could have brought her to 5N and decided what to do while in the privacy of one of their apartments. If JW snapped he would have been standing outside in public in full view of anyone who walked by or drove by with his dead girlfriend. Did he drive to wherever she was? Do you think he carried her body back to his apartment? Did he immediately after "snapping" decide where to hide her and how to transport her? I'm dubious about that but it could have happened.

I'm not sure what evidence you consider to be valid, but if you're waiting for police reports, full statements and video tape evidence before you think we have anything to go on, you're going to be waiting for a while. We can only work with what we currently have, otherwise every post would consist of "Lauren is still missing" and that would be it.

Again, to reiterate: I am not saying JW is innocent and CR/JR are guilty. I am saying that I, personally, do not think that 5N's stories are true or consistent, and I don't think JW had as much of an opportunity to harm and hide Lauren. That is my opinion, and if we get information that contradicts my opinion I will gladly reconsider what I believe.

 

[AbbeyR]

1. when did he get the call from bar about cell phone
2. when did he contact HT about key to apt
3. did he contact any 5N guys before or after going to LS apt
4. when did he notify LE she was missing

IIRC (please correct me if I'm wrong!):

1. Early afternoon
2. Around 2 pm
3. HT said they started calling around looking for her, and we know she talked to JR. No one has ever mentioned JW contacting them that day.
4. She was reported missing by 2 of her girlfriends late afternoon/ evening. JW also spoke to LE around the same time.

Here's what I could make sense of the timeline from reading different sources: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9972488&postcount=472"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31[/ame]

I'm sure you can find the actual quotes with the times if you go back to the first few threads with the HT interviews, etc. The early LoHud articles also reported the details of how and when she was reported missing.

 

[sammi89]

The private investigators said that they saw the videos. Are you assuming they are lying? And I'm sorry, but there is nothing that will convince me that someone who is falling multiple times, and fails to put their arms out to break their fall is not incapacitated. JR himself said that lauren had a black eye or was beginning to get one by the time she made it back to 5N.

I have not said that I think its impossible for JW to be guilty. I have explained multiple times that I believe it is implausible, but still possible. As I've also said multiple times, I personally do not believe that Lauren was well enough to leave 5N the way JR says she did.

And as I said in a previous post, if my assumption is wrong and JR is telling the truth and we get some sort of proof or evidence about that, I'll change my theory. You're responding to me as though I'm saying "5N certainly did it and JW is innocent", I am not saying that in any way shape or form. I don't believe large parts of the 5N story, and I think it is unlikely that JW would have managed to pull this off on his own. If something happened to Lauren either at 5N or on the way there with CR they could have brought her to 5N and decided what to do while in the privacy of one of their apartments. If JW snapped he would have been standing outside in public in full view of anyone who walked by or drove by with his dead girlfriend. Did he drive to wherever she was? Do you think he carried her body back to his apartment? Did he immediately after "snapping" decide where to hide her and how to transport her? I'm dubious about that but it could have happened.

I'm not sure what evidence you consider to be valid, but if you're waiting for police reports, full statements and video tape evidence before you think we have anything to go on, you're going to be waiting for a while. We can only work with what we currently have, otherwise every post would consist of "Lauren is still missing" and that would be it.

Again, to reiterate: I am not saying JW is innocent and CR/JR are guilty. I am saying that I, personally, do not think that 5N's stories are true or consistent, and I don't think JW had as much of an opportunity to harm and hide Lauren. That is my opinion, and if we get information that contradicts my opinion I will gladly reconsider what I believe.

Yeah, I get what akh is saying, but I have to agree. I don't think people here have tunnel vision. I think it's just that more is publicly known about the 5N POIs at this point and we have access to what is publicly known. To make discussion concerning JW equal, we would have to speculate even more on speculation, and I'm really not sure how that is better? I think many of us who tend to be skeptical of the 5N do this because it's all we have to go off of but would be open to considering JW if anything came to light showing he had knowledge of LS' activities and/or contradicting his story.

 

[sammi89]

Since HT as spokesperson was recently brought up, why wasn't she one of those calls made by LS/JR that night? JR was good friends with her, had his number, and she clearly felt they were good enough friends to defend him to the public. You

Also:

Spierer came carrying her fake ID and Smallwood key card, he said. “When Lauren walked into Rosenbaum’s apartment, he observed a very noticeable bruise under her eye,” the investigator wrote in a report summarizing his interview with Rosenbaum. “He stated he asked her what happened, and she responded, ‘I don’t know.’ ”

Source: http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

Spierer, who police say dropped her keys and identification card on the way, spent some time at the men’s building before leaving at 4:30 a.m., according to Rosenbaum, who claims he watched from a balcony as she walked toward her apartment. Spierer was never seen or heard from again

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/1...ibes-terrible-strain-as-two-year-anniversary/

I'm not sure what to make of that: reporting error, JR outright lying because he didn't want to be the guy that sent her home without a key or for other reasons and didn't know she had dropped them?

 

[imkeylime]

... I also think HT was in an awkward position, and it's hard to know her motivations. When she went to the media with JR's story, everyone thought she sounded suspicious and was hiding information, when it's more likely, IMO, that she was reading a pretty scripted statement from JR, and it's the story itself that was suspicious and full of holes....

... Anyway, I don't really have an opinion about HT one way or the other - her role in speaking for JR just isn't entirely clear cut to me.

Snipped by me. Could it be that she was sharing JR's story, as you note, but also just has a dramatic way of speaking? While looking for some old info about JW, I found this:

"Her boyfriend loves her more than anyone in this world," Timir said. "Every time I see him I just want to cry."

The way she phrased this makes me wonder ... maybe she blow things out of proportion in general? In the above quote, it's like she's JW's spokesperson, too. Maybe she overdramatizes in general?

 

[imkeylime]

This is a question for those who live in Btown. Is there any way JW could have gone from his house/apt to 5N via auto or walking and never be seen on camera? It has been stated earlier in post that LS was staying in Btown waiting for JW's classes to end and ride back to NY with him. So, somebody help me understand this. You are waiting for your boyfriend(as far as we know he still was) to ride home with, yet you go partying with a group to the Indy 500 without the boyfriend. Then 4 days later you are partying again with same group without boyfriend. Wouldn't that make for a long ride home? Other questions I have concerning JW are:

when did he get the call from bar about cell phone
when did he contact HT about key to apt
did he contact any 5N guys before or after going to LS apt
when did he notify LE she was missing

If all of this happened within a 3-4 hour window wouldn't that be a little suspicious. I think this is why he should be considered at the top of the POI list. IMO

I go back and forth on this. IMO, based on what I've seen with my kids (17 and 21), things aren't as cut and dry as they used to be re: hanging out with other guys than your boyfriend. It seems to be that girls have "boyfriends" and "boy friends." But then there are the "boy friends" who want to be "boyfriends" ... and it can be fairly obvious and problematic. (My daughter has one, so we've had this talk.)

I kind of feel like CR was in the former category (or just wanted to hook up), which does make me wonder a bit what JW thought. Thinking of it that way, what he thinks now may be different than what he thought before that fateful night, though.

I really can't rule JW out, but unless he was stalking LS or had help from friends, I can't easily see how he'd pull her disappearance off. There is one piece of info that I've been trying to find but can't anymore ... something about JW driving a friend to class the next morning, before he knew LS was missing. Does anyone remember this or is my memory playing tricks on me? If so, was the class at IU?

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

Been awhile since I have read and or posted on this case. But wanted to tell any new persons here that I have been there. Couple of summers ago I visited the area. I walked from her apartment up the alley and towards 5 north. One thing to tell you is it is a very quick walk, and not as far as the photos may indicate. The parking area is also very small, like a box for parking for lack of better description.

One thing I can tell her, when they said he said etc they watched her walk home she didn't take the alley back home, for if she did which would have been the way for her to go, it would have been on tape. If she walked the street towards her apartment which was a straight shot she would have been caught on a camera somewhere along the way. The distance between the alley and the street she could have taken home is short in distance. She would have taken the alley, it was quick dark and perhaps no chance of being seen by police and possible arrested for public intoxication if she was drunk and not giving some kind of date rape drug to make her incoherent..........IF, he would have said she walked down the alley he would have been busted. Because the camera would have gotten her. So to say she walked down the street was the best option.

There are photos that was taken at the scene and posted on the thread. Hope this helps in viewing them.

ADD ON...where her purse or key bag whatever it was found in front of the rail. That is just a few feet from the exit to the left from the alley, she may had not had any shoes on, for the parking area is gravel and between the gravel and where the stuff was found is a little bit of grass or a cement walk in from of the apartments there and i still think she was taken not long after coming out of the alley to a waiting vehicle parked out of camera range. But just speculating.

Add on...The bar is not far from her apartment either. All within walking distance. She may had been given something in her drink at the bar that caused her to become disoriented and so forth and it took effect later.......Then again you have the altercation that occurred at the apartment, and I don't recall if that was before the bar trip or after she went to the bar and then went back to her apartment and could not get in if i remember correctly.

At the apartment, you can just walk in, but you need a sliding card to enter the apartment itself. I stood there and watched other students go in and out. I believe That is correct.

Someone was able to walk her up that alley, but later on no one was able to walk her back?...It would have only taken 3 or 4 minutes tops to walk from the alley to her apartment but no one cared to?

And no one notice she didn't have a key or card to enter her apartment? She would not gotten back in because she dropped those things earlier i believe coming out of the alley.

And she left her shoes and cellphone i believe at the bar, and then lost her other stuff by the rail by the parking area. She was becoming disorientated and confuse to the point she could hardly walk from what i read from the video tapes. I DONT BELIEVE THEY HE WATCHED HER WALK HOME............I never believed that.

MAYBE......and this is just a MAYBE........Maybe she made it to where they found her stuff at the rail and passed out there, and was taken from there. But as far as saying she walked from 5 North passed the alley and on to the street to head home NEVER!!!!!!

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

New Theory....

After re-posting here tonight and thinking about things I wanted to leave my new theory on what happened...

That boy that walked her out of that alley, when they made that little left to head towards N5 Lauren dropped her stuff by the railing because she was passing out. He took her to N5 because there was going to be a party going on. Him and at least one other, and probably all three boys and Lauren. Sometime during this party Lauren dies. And the boys painic and they see theres lives ending before there eyes because of this. They take Laren and put her in a vheicle and take her somewhere, then come back and get there story straight before being asked questions by the LEOs. And then not long after the parents got the attorneys to end the questioning. And to this day I believe if you have any questions about this case you want to ask the boys you still have to go through the attorneys still, but not sure about that.

Lauren had asthma yes? I believe i read that somewhere she had asthma or some other respiratory disease. The combination of alcohol and drugs given to her with or without her consent lead to her death at 5N from breathing complications. That girl didn't walk anywhere by herself. She was passed out

The above all moo and speculation on my part. Nothing being posted as fact unless known to be.

 

[imkeylime]

Yes, I can see it this way too... I genuinely don't know what to think of those early statements from HT. But, I just can't imagine why, if JR was involved in Lauren's disappearance, he would tell HT the story. To me it sounded like he told her the story he knew would be passed on to others - that's why he included the details like 'he had run out of alcohol' etc., which obviously weren't key details when the goal is to find a missing friend. But who knows. It is a bit strange that the assumption from the beginning (from everyone involved) seems to have been that Lauren was gone

The more I think about this, the more I think there might be various levels of "protecting" going on (of self and others). It strikes me that HT could be protecting both JR and JW from something (?) while kind of throwing CR under the bus. OTOH, MB and maybe JR seem protective of CR, IMO. The same might be true for JR and DB. (? again.) Maybe DR was more forthright?

What if HT and JW, for instance, knew LS had taken (allegedly) Klonopin and where she got it from. Or make the Klonopin coke, even. She'd been with HT earlier in the day, and she'd texted with JW. Maybe they knew enough about the early night's activities to be worried about the morning's, accounting for why JW got the key from HT.

I can buy that LS OD'd and someone disposed of her body in a panic. It's how they weren't caught that stymies me. It does seem that everyone folded early on and assumed LS was gone, which leads me to the above consideration. It just seems like there's something, major drug dealing and/or something else, that made people cover up what either they or their friends did or contributed to. Maybe that's why JR made the comment about having run out of alcohol and why JW suspected something was wrong so early on.

 

[Ros]

I'm not 100% sure Monkey, but I don't think we have ever seen the actual report, only articles that talked about the report being filed? You could try searching back in early threads or in the media thread...

I think that police reports are usually considered public records. There may be a small fee for getting a copy and the copy may be redacted. Also, if there is an ongoing investigation (as in this case) LE may legally withhold all or part of the information.

http://bloomington.in.gov/media/media/application/pdf/13634.pdf

 

[holly18]

Yeah, I get what akh is saying, but I have to agree. I don't think people here have tunnel vision. I think it's just that more is publicly known about the 5N POIs at this point and we have access to what is publicly known. To make discussion concerning JW equal, we would have to speculate even more on speculation, and I'm really not sure how that is better? I think many of us who tend to be skeptical of the 5N do this because it's all we have to go off of but would be open to considering JW if anything came to light showing he had knowledge of LS' activities and/or contradicting his story.

Exactly! You're much more articulate than I am, haha. I understand why people might be frustrated that we're not considering JW as much as 5N but I don't know how we would go about doing it. If we get more information about him/ his actions that night I would be happy to come up with theories/look into him, but without more information I feel like everything would be grounded in total hypotheticals

 

[Ros]

This is a question for those who live in Btown. Is there any way JW could have gone from his house/apt to 5N via auto or walking and never be seen on camera? It has been stated earlier in post that LS was staying in Btown waiting for JW's classes to end and ride back to NY with him. So, somebody help me understand this. You are waiting for your boyfriend(as far as we know he still was) to ride home with, yet you go partying with a group to the Indy 500 without the boyfriend. Then 4 days later you are partying again with same group without boyfriend. Wouldn't that make for a long ride home? Other questions I have concerning JW are:

when did he get the call from bar about cell phone
when did he contact HT about key to apt
did he contact any 5N guys before or after going to LS apt
when did he notify LE she was missing

If all of this happened within a 3-4 hour window wouldn't that be a little suspicious. I think this is why he should be considered at the top of the POI list. IMO

He got the call from the bar about the cell phone late in the morning according to this article: http://www.lohud.com/article/201107...he-s-taken-polygraph-mother-issues-new-appeal

 

[holly18]

I go back and forth on this. IMO, based on what I've seen with my kids (17 and 21), things aren't as cut and dry as they used to be re: hanging out with other guys than your boyfriend. It seems to be that girls have "boyfriends" and "boy friends." But then there are the "boy friends" who want to be "boyfriends" ... and it can be fairly obvious and problematic. (My daughter has one, so we've had this talk.)

I kind of feel like CR was in the former category (or just wanted to hook up), which does make me wonder a bit what JW thought. Thinking of it that way, what he thinks now may be different than what he thought before that fateful night, though.

I really can't rule JW out, but unless he was stalking LS or had help from friends, I can't easily see how he'd pull her disappearance off. There is one piece of info that I've been trying to find but can't anymore ... something about JW driving a friend to class the next morning, before he knew LS was missing. Does anyone remember this or is my memory playing tricks on me? If so, was the class at IU?

I remember this, I think it was one of his roommates but I might be wrong. IIRC it was an early morning class, and I think it was after he dropped the friend off that he got the keys from HT/spoke to kilroys

Edited to add: I believe the class was at IU, I don't remember hearing anything to contradict that

 

[holly18]

New Theory....

After re-posting here tonight and thinking about things I wanted to leave my new theory on what happened...

That boy that walked her out of that alley, when they made that little left to head towards N5 Lauren dropped her stuff by the railing because she was passing out. He took her to N5 because there was going to be a party going on. Him and at least one other, and probably all three boys and Lauren. Sometime during this party Lauren dies. And the boys painic and they see theres lives ending before there eyes because of this. They take Laren and put her in a vheicle and take her somewhere, then come back and get there story straight before being asked questions by the LEOs. And then not long after the parents got the attorneys to end the questioning. And to this day I believe if you have any questions about this case you want to ask the boys you still have to go through the attorneys still, but not sure about that.

Lauren had asthma yes? I believe i read that somewhere she had asthma or some other respiratory disease. The combination of alcohol and drugs given to her with or without her consent lead to her death at 5N from breathing complications. That girl didn't walk anywhere by herself. She was passed out

The above all moo and speculation on my part. Nothing being posted as fact unless known to be.

I don't recall hearing that she had asthma, but she did have a heart condition that required daily medication

 

[Ixchel13]

I don't think we know the PI's have seen videos. In fact it would be surprising if LE shared videos with them.

And I didn't find their telling of the story to make LS to be as incoherent as some here are saying. Particularly when the PI says she was 'alive and well'. He did qualify that but really threw cold water on the idea that she was already incapacitated at that point.



Or knew or suspected correctly where she was at and waiting on her. If he'd learned of the Indy 500 meeting, suspected anything, and was jealous enough to follow thru then he wouldn't have to go searching if he thought he could catch her leaving 5N. He wouldn't have even needed to be planning to do anything but catch her in a lie the next morning when he asks where she was the night before. But he sees her and snaps. It wouldn't be the first time this type of scenario has played out in the world.



The accuracy of all of that is not certain at all. What we really need to see is what is in police statements all along. And what JR told the Spierers. You only assume JR is lying. That let's you move onto the next phase.... But what if he's telling the truth and your assumption is wrong?

JW really doesn't have an alibi...when his alibi is that he was asleep, and the alibi is provided by his roommates who also said they were asleep. Weird that HT has never said where she was, as if she didn't need an alibi.

I agree that whenever anyone else is brought up, especially HT or JW, people instantly defend them. Take the altercation. I think we've figured out it happened in front of DR's apt down the hall from HT and Lauren's. HT was there at DRs but when it is suggested that she had something to do with the altercation, people say we have no proof. No, we don't have solid proof. But!
She never says, "I wish I had been there to help Lauren, but after she left for JR's, I went X, Y or Z." She either also went to JR's, or to ZC's at 10th and College, or stayed there. But trying to say she was at her apt and knew nothing about the altercation is really a stretch.
So where was she? Her defense of JR might indicate she went to JRs when Lauren did. Lauren trying to get into 10th and College might indicate she migrated over there. IMO, these kids are lying about where they were, and whether or not they were really asleep.
IMO, HT was trying to thwart Lauren and CR. She didn't want him in their apt., thus the altercation, and she was possibly at 10th and College and instigated them not letting Lauren in. One thing IIRC that we do know is, Lauren was alive during the altercation, and when she was trying to get into 10th and College. IMO, the altercation was about people, mutual friends of JW and Lauren, trying to be gangster for JW's benefit, and this carried over to the 10th and College incident.
Why do we assume, then, that this all ended when she and CR headed up the alley? They were trying to go to Smallwood first. Perhaps in the alcohol and drug fuelled minds of these kids, that was just too much for the AEPI gang. How dare Lauren try to bring this guy into their territory?
IMO, Lauren would've stayed at Smallwood with CR if they hadn't been chased out by her friends. IMO, at the time of the altercation, she was made aware that JW had been informed of her activities. And IMO, HT and ZC did the informing. And that's why HT is saying this time things went too far.
If Lauren wanted to date CR behind JW's back, she never would have brought him back to Smallwood. And one thing people have to remember, it's not ok for her friends to interfere with that. They certainly were not interfering
for her safety. She was an adult, she was paying her rent, she had every right to bring someone home, the AEPIs had no right to interfere. When you see it that way, that is a crime that hasn't even been addressed, and Lauren would be alive if she hadn't been prevented from going home. IMO, that's why she left, a mob of drunk gansta wannabes, friends of her boyfriend, wouldn't let her. And, chasing her back onto the streets left her vulnerable for JW to come after her, when being safe in her apt. didn't.

 

[Ros]

I go back and forth on this. IMO, based on what I've seen with my kids (17 and 21), things aren't as cut and dry as they used to be re: hanging out with other guys than your boyfriend. It seems to be that girls have "boyfriends" and "boy friends." But then there are the "boy friends" who want to be "boyfriends" ... and it can be fairly obvious and problematic. (My daughter has one, so we've had this talk.)

I kind of feel like CR was in the former category (or just wanted to hook up), which does make me wonder a bit what JW thought. Thinking of it that way, what he thinks now may be different than what he thought before that fateful night, though.

I really can't rule JW out, but unless he was stalking LS or had help from friends, I can't easily see how he'd pull her disappearance off. There is one piece of info that I've been trying to find but can't anymore ... something about JW driving a friend to class the next morning, before he knew LS was missing. Does anyone remember this or is my memory playing tricks on me? If so, was the class at IU?

As I recall, JW's roommate, AWG, said on PT that JW drove him to class in the morning. Nothing seemed strange to AWG at the time.