IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[holly18]

I don't recall hearing that DR spoke to LE about drugs, but I do remember reading an article (maybe the Indiana Monthly one) where JR said that either DR or LS told him they'd snorted Klonopin that night. I remember the discussion here re: snorting vs. orally ingesting. Whether DR confessed to as much hasn't been made public as far as I know.

I do think that going more public, i.e., taking a LE-administered poly and searching for LS, may have given him a lower profile. But it's also true that he wasn't with her while at Kilroy's, which changes his involvement, IMO.

What's interests me is why JR called DR that morning. It's one of the things that makes me wonder if LS may have been ODing or having a long QT attack that was mistaken for ODing. That makes sense to me if DR or LS did indeed tell JR they'd snorted Klonopin. JMO.

Thats what I remember too, but I wasn't sure if something had slipped by me.

I agree with your last paragraph completely. I also wonder if maybe JR called to say "Lauren is ****ed up, I know you two did xyz so this is your responsibility" or something of that nature. The very cynical part of me also wonders if maybe by that point Lauren had already passed away and JR was calling DR so that after the fact he could play the good guy and say "well, I called DR to come get her, but he didn't and she left"

 

[holly18]

Or he knew the ID had been found, but not when?... I don't know what to make of it either. I feel like there must have been a reason for JR to specifically mention seeing Lauren's ID (and for it to be mentioned by the PIs), but these reports, along with the articles about Kilroy's being fined based on the ID and then the other (more sketchy) rumor that the ID was found elsewhere make it even more confusing. I really wish we knew when/ where her fake ID was found - this is one of those nagging questions that seems like it could be important.

What are the 'nagging questions' that you guys have about the info that has been reported?

A few that seem like they would be easy to clarify to me that would help piece a few things together are: The fake ID, the time that CR asked a neighbor if he'd "seen a little blonde girl", and Tony Gatto's involvement/ sources.

This is never going to happen, but I think it would be really helpful if we knew how out of it everyone else really was. Did CR do a ton of shots (or other things), or was he staying relatively sober and trying to get Lauren wasted? Was the party at JR's incredibly alcohol/drug fueled (more than normal for them) or is there a chance that by the time Lauren arrived he was pretty sober? What about MB? If all three of them were completely out of it, it makes me question how well they could hide lauren/come up with a plan. We've heard that Lauren was almost incapacitated, but (other than what CR/his lawyer say and MB working on his essay) we haven't heard about what kind of shape the other players were in. Was CR visibly intoxicated or high when he was at smallwood?

IMO a huge missing piece is JR's houseguest(s). We've heard there were two, who was it other than DB? What were the guests doing? Were they at another party/with other people or were they both still at JRs by the time CR and Lauren got back? I hope LE has looked into it, but it would be nice to have confirmation that they have, even if thats all the information we get about it. It always seems to get glossed over in articles

I would love to have a breakdown of where some of the facts/rumors came from (ie private investigator, MSM, HT, CR, JR, MB, lawyers, the Spierers etc), I know at least for me a lot of that information has kind of blended in my head and it would be helpful to have it all broken down

 

[kpeacock]

What are the 'nagging questions' that you guys have about the info that has been reported?

My nagging questions (from reported info): who were the guests at JRs that night (DB and...?) Why have we not heard more from/about them?

Nagging questions about unreported info: When did JR/CR/MB next leave 5N after their timeline given to LE? Next morning? Are they on camera leaving/coming & going the next day? Did LE get cell records for all three boys (could they legally?) Also, re: cameras: for the theory that she did leave the building and head towards House Bar - are there cameras anywhere along that route?

Lately, because all video reported places LS at 5N with no proof of leaving, my thoughts have turned towards what these boys could have done with a body, if she did OD/pass away in their presence. Where is Lauren? If they did hide a body, how would they do it?

Thinking along those lines, I wonder how well the boys really knew Bloomington, outside of campus and downtown. I tend to think most IU kids living in dorms don't know Bloomington well outside of a few landmarks - the mall, the lake, etc. I assume they knew the road to Indianapolis pretty well (just one hour straight shot, Martinsville is the only town directly in between along 37.) If they were going to hide a body, it makes sense to me that they'd drive out of town the way they always come in. I know a fire in Martinsville that summer has been mentioned. Martinsville is well known around here as having a bad reputation - as in, KKK activity and deeply imbedded racism. It's not the kind of town you stop in unless you know someone that lives there. Would they have just driven off through a small town looking for a place to dump a body? Did they (or the friends staying with JR that night) know anyone connected to Martinsville? I know waterways in Indy have been mentioned as well.

If I were LE or a PI on this case, I'd want cell records from all the POIs, the names of boys staying with JR, camera footage of anyone leaving/entering 5N for up to 48 hours after, and then I'd start looking into those friends that are rarely mentioned. I feel there must be some info there, they must have heard/seen something, even if they weren't involved. Who are they, and who do they know in Martinsville/Indy? Older brothers/family members/other connections to life outside IU here in Indiana could be helpful.

I understand why they are keeping the investigation so private, but still, wish we had more info to go off of here.

 

[Ixchel13]

Bolded by me, I hope thats ok. Do we know that he spoke to LE about drugs? I know he's the main person who has cooperated with LE and the Spierers, but I thought that the information about drugs came from JR saying what he believed DR and Lauren had taken earlier that evening? I could be wrong, its hard to keep what we know from statements/the spierers/ private investigators/speculation straight.

Also did DR really get immunity from LE? If they're offering immunity for at least some potential drug charges (ie taking them but not selling) maybe that will get one or two people to come forward

again, all IMO but, good question, who did start the DR klonopin rumor, the one that has him snorting some w. Lauren? IIRC, people are going with that as true.

They supposedly have him on camera entering Smallwood shortly after he walked up to JR's w. Lauren.

ZO also cooperated to some degree, had to, because he committed assault on camera and was never charged. He was never helping Lauren. In all this talk about the altercation and what is said to be on the tape, it is notable that
nothing is said about anyone helping Lauren on camera. So we can assume that during this whole thing, no one helped Lauren. CR is the one getting
beat up, but she also needed help. LE has said the altercation did not include Lauren, yet her escort was attacked. If after the altercation, ZO left immediately, he could have reached his apt at 10th and C before Lauren and CR got there. That's when Lauren supposedly smacked her head according to the discredited bar manager. ok this is crazy, but what if the bar manager was having an affair with a younger employee/customer and he lives at 10th and C and knows ZO and roomies? strictly speculative. Just emphasizing that when Lauren was supposedly up at JR's at 4 a.m., people she knew and their friends were just yards away, people who had beat up CR. So easy for them to accost her.

 

[imkeylime]

... Thinking along those lines, I wonder how well the boys really knew Bloomington, outside of campus and downtown. I tend to think most IU kids living in dorms don't know Bloomington well outside of a few landmarks - the mall, the lake, etc. I assume they knew the road to Indianapolis pretty well (just one hour straight shot, Martinsville is the only town directly in between along 37.) If they were going to hide a body, it makes sense to me that they'd drive out of town the way they always come in. I know a fire in Martinsville that summer has been mentioned. Martinsville is well known around here as having a bad reputation - as in, KKK activity and deeply imbedded racism. It's not the kind of town you stop in unless you know someone that lives there. Would they have just driven off through a small town looking for a place to dump a body? Did they (or the friends staying with JR that night) know anyone connected to Martinsville? I know waterways in Indy have been mentioned as well. ...

Snipped by me. I've always been interested in the Martinsville area and not just because of the fire. Early reports here mentioned that AEPi dropped pledges off in Martinsville for whatever reason and also that various student groups had retreats and team building at Bradford Woods, which is owned and operated by IU. I believe that DR was majoring in the school that it's most associated with (HPER). But students in majors outside of that school reportedly use the grounds for group events. Here's a past WS link that discusses it:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144766&page=15

And here's a link for Bradford Woods:
http://www.bradwoods.org

Martinsville and particularly Bradford Woods seem worth exploring, IMO. Then again, maybe they were. And maybe there's enough activity at BW for a body to be found? Then again, it's described as a "pristine 2,500-acre natural environment."

 

[Dixie811]

Is anyone aware of any participation by HT, BW, or any of Lauren's other girlfriends and/or roommates from IN and/or NY (not referring to any of the 5N guys or JW) participating in any online discussions regarding the case?

I am not aware of anyone doing such on WS, but I haven't frequented any online discussions about Lauren's case such as PT. And on PT, weren't most of the 'insider' posters acquaintances of the young men involved in this case like JW and JR?

I guess perhaps Lauren's girlfriends think it would be in poor taste to participate in such discussion. But it almost surprises me that they are a generation so deeply involved in social media and the Internet, yet I haven't seen much from them online regarding the disappearance of their friend. (Although I don't look at their private social media accounts where they may post about missing Lauren, etc..)

I hope this post doesn't have an accusatory tone... obviously I don't believe all of Lauren's girlfriends have conspired to keep her fate a secret or something. I would be very interested in their perspective though.

 

[kpeacock]

I have wondered about that too. On a few occasions, I think a couple of the POIs (JR? DR?) joined the We Want The Truth facebook page, and then left. I wasn't paying much attention at the time, but comment threads there have referenced it. It's part of the reason some of the posters there often address emotional posts and pleas to the POIs, because they feel they might be reading along. But I've often wondered if there aren't other social media platforms where rumor/gossip was shared, by people who knew
this circle, or people who knew of them.

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk

 

[holly18]

Is anyone aware of any participation by HT, BW, or any of Lauren's other girlfriends and/or roommates from IN and/or NY (not referring to any of the 5N guys or JW) participating in any online discussions regarding the case?

I am not aware of anyone doing such on WS, but I haven't frequented any online discussions about Lauren's case such as PT. And on PT, weren't most of the 'insider' posters acquaintances of the young men involved in this case like JW and JR?

I guess perhaps Lauren's girlfriends think it would be in poor taste to participate in such discussion. But it almost surprises me that they are a generation so deeply involved in social media and the Internet, yet I haven't seen much from them online regarding the disappearance of their friend. (Although I don't look at their private social media accounts where they may post about missing Lauren, etc..)

I hope this post doesn't have an accusatory tone... obviously I don't believe all of Lauren's girlfriends have conspired to keep her fate a secret or something. I would be very interested in their perspective though.

I know BW and BL have both been very involved with raising awareness about Lauren and I'm not sure what the rules are about discussing private social media but I will say that both of them have been vocal about missing/searching for lauren. They've participated in several fundraisers/gatherings with the spierers, IMO they're about as active as they could be but afaik I haven't run across any of their posts on online discussions

 

[AbbeyR]

LoHud has many of their facts wrong. and just some bad reporting. Your example, for example. "four students got off the elevator." How did they know for a fact it was 4 students?LE confiscated that video as evidence right away, after breaking down the doors of the office at Smallwood and taking it. sometimes it sounds like reporters and PIs are describing what they've heard is on the videos vs. what they've actually seen..LE has not briefed LoHud or told them it was 4 students. For example, not all of ZO's roommates were students.

(BBM) Really? Can you give an example of where a LoHud report has the facts wrong?

Sorry if I have misunderstood, but I'm not sure I understand the example you've given. Are you saying here that the description of the altercation and/or 4 witnesses is wrong or that you don't think LoHud could have this info? Aside from the fact that it has been reported that "scores of people" have seen the surveillance video from Smallwood, it seems clear that the witnesses were interviewed by the investigators. Witnesses have also given statements to other news sources and details of altercation were also posted on social media before these reports even surfaced. So, I don't think in this case that LE has exclusive knowledge as to who was involved and what happened. JMO

But if there are facts that are actually known to be incorrect, I think it's important to point out where media has gotten it wrong - In that case, please post the correct info for us!

 

[AbbeyR]

My nagging questions (from reported info): who were the guests at JRs that night (DB and...?) Why have we not heard more from/about them?

Nagging questions about unreported info: When did JR/CR/MB next leave 5N after their timeline given to LE? Next morning? Are they on camera leaving/coming & going the next day? Did LE get cell records for all three boys (could they legally?) Also, re: cameras: for the theory that she did leave the building and head towards House Bar - are there cameras anywhere along that route?

Lately, because all video reported places LS at 5N with no proof of leaving, my thoughts have turned towards what these boys could have done with a body, if she did OD/pass away in their presence. Where is Lauren? If they did hide a body, how would they do it?

Thinking along those lines, I wonder how well the boys really knew Bloomington, outside of campus and downtown. I tend to think most IU kids living in dorms don't know Bloomington well outside of a few landmarks - the mall, the lake, etc. I assume they knew the road to Indianapolis pretty well (just one hour straight shot, Martinsville is the only town directly in between along 37.) If they were going to hide a body, it makes sense to me that they'd drive out of town the way they always come in. I know a fire in Martinsville that summer has been mentioned. Martinsville is well known around here as having a bad reputation - as in, KKK activity and deeply imbedded racism. It's not the kind of town you stop in unless you know someone that lives there. Would they have just driven off through a small town looking for a place to dump a body? Did they (or the friends staying with JR that night) know anyone connected to Martinsville? I know waterways in Indy have been mentioned as well.

If I were LE or a PI on this case, I'd want cell records from all the POIs, the names of boys staying with JR, camera footage of anyone leaving/entering 5N for up to 48 hours after, and then I'd start looking into those friends that are rarely mentioned. I feel there must be some info there, they must have heard/seen something, even if they weren't involved. Who are they, and who do they know in Martinsville/Indy? Older brothers/family members/other connections to life outside IU here in Indiana could be helpful.

I understand why they are keeping the investigation so private, but still, wish we had more info to go off of here.

Good questions.

 

[Ixchel13]

(BBM) Really? Can you give an example of where a LoHud report has the facts wrong?

Sorry if I have misunderstood, but I'm not sure I understand the example you've given. Are you saying here that the description of the altercation and/or 4 witnesses is wrong or that you don't think LoHud could have this info? Aside from the fact that it has been reported that "scores of people" have seen the surveillance video from Smallwood, it seems clear that the witnesses were interviewed by the investigators. Witnesses have also given statements to other news sources and details of altercation were also posted on social media before these reports even surfaced. So, I don't think in this case that LE has exclusive knowledge as to who was involved and what happened. JMO

But if there are facts that are actually known to be incorrect, I think it's important to point out where media has gotten it wrong - In that case, please post the correct info for us!

Many, many LoHud articles have facts that are misconstrued. I'm at work, but will be off later and will point you in the right direction.
"score" usually means twelve. Or so. So, "scores" would means at least 24 people have viewed the altercation vids. Don't think so Ab.
Nothing has been made "clear to the public" except that no one is an official suspect. Most of the "witnesses " of the altercation had to be drunk and high. so.....again, why don't I ask you the same questions you ask of others. Do you know anything about the altercation that could clear up the fuzziness? And who are these witnesses, do you know any of their names ?because LE has not released a single one.
Maybe we should post all the links from LoHud and pore over them for mistakes, especially the first ones. Has anyone else noticed when perusing LoHud that they are a sensationalist rag?

 

[AbbeyR]

Many, many LoHud articles have facts that are misconstrued. I'm at work, but will be off later and will point you in the right direction. <snipped by me>

Great! To save you some time, I'm not asking for your opinion on what sounds to you like it may or may not be accurate - just for you to back up your statement that "LoHud has many of their facts wrong" with examples/ correct information - since these articles are often referenced here, this would be helpful, if there are actually mistakes. Thanks!

There have been more details about the altercation discussed here in the past, but those posts were deleted because we are not allowed to post from social media or name people who haven't been named in MSM.

 

[Ros]

Many, many LoHud articles have facts that are misconstrued. I'm at work, but will be off later and will point you in the right direction.
"score" usually means twelve. Or so. So, "scores" would means at least 24 people have viewed the altercation vids. Don't think so Ab.
Nothing has been made "clear to the public" except that no one is an official suspect. Most of the "witnesses " of the altercation had to be drunk and high. so.....again, why don't I ask you the same questions you ask of others. Do you know anything about the altercation that could clear up the fuzziness? And who are these witnesses, do you know any of their names ?because LE has not released a single one.
Maybe we should post all the links from LoHud and pore over them for mistakes, especially the first ones. Has anyone else noticed when perusing LoHud that they are a sensationalist rag?

Perhaps I am being picky, but "score" means twenty, so "Four score and seven years ago" means 87 years ago. 1863-87=1776.

So "scores of people" would be at least forty.

 

[Ros]

Or he knew the ID had been found, but not when?... I don't know what to make of it either. I feel like there must have been a reason for JR to specifically mention seeing Lauren's ID (and for it to be mentioned by the PIs), but these reports, along with the articles about Kilroy's being fined based on the ID and then the other (more sketchy) rumor that the ID was found elsewhere make it even more confusing. I really wish we knew when/ where her fake ID was found - this is one of those nagging questions that seems like it could be important.

What are the 'nagging questions' that you guys have about the info that has been reported?

A few that seem like they would be easy to clarify to me that would help piece a few things together are: The fake ID, the time that CR asked a neighbor if he'd "seen a little blonde girl", and Tony Gatto's involvement/ sources.

Here's my list of additional nagging questions. There are rumors regarding the answers to some of these questions, but there are no official answers from LE, the PIs or the Spierers.

What did MB really do and observe that evening?
Why do so many different versions of events appear to originate with MB?
Who else was at JR's besides DB? What were they doing?
What do the phone records of the parties involved show?
Who was the other male recipient of a 4:15 phone calls?
What other vehicles were seen on surveillance besides the white truck?
What, if anything, did the dogs find? Where did they lose the scent?
Did cadaver dogs find any suspicious scents?
Where/how was she carrying her Smallwood key and fake ID?
Was her jacket ever found? Did it have pockets? Was she seen wearing it rather than carrying it?
If ZO and associates were incensed enough to physically attack CR because of CR's behavior, why did they permit him to leave with LS? There were several of them and only one CR.
Who were ZO's associates? Did any of them contact JW? JR and JW were in the same fraternity, though allegedly not close. Did JR contact JW or someone else in the fraternity?
Why were some people on PT so VERY nasty towards LS (and those who were intent on finding her) if they had nothing to do with the case?
Why did some blogs (TG, JRNNT, JRNNTU) regarding this case appear and then stop with little or no explanation?
I remember that several lakes were searched relatively soon. Did any of the PsOI have access to a boat?
Why does the lawsuit indicate that the apartment of CR and MB was burglarized (anyone know anything about this?) but does not mention the burglary at JR's apartment?

 

[Ixchel13]

Perhaps I am being picky, but "score" means twenty, so "Four score and seven years ago" means 87 years ago. 1863-87=1776.

So "scores of people" would be at least forty.

thanks that's not being picky!

against my better judgement, I'm going to spend some time re-reading LoHud
but I'll only post the first two or so mistakes and then if someone is further interested they could go back in, trying to re-watch The Borgias.

ok I just re-watched the very popular video from Lohud with Sean Cohen and the PIs . He tells the whole story, and I'm thinking, he's got his details in line, but at the end of the vid says, these facts have been gathered from many sources but we don't know how reliable they are because of the drugs and alcohol and other reasons, etc. So basically, in one of the first of his articles, he tells us his facts are unreliable.

Also, I re-noticed something that has always made me think she was in the alley or trying to get into 10th and College two separate times. The PIs say that they were sitting on the steps, she hit her head, and then they traveled up the alley and knocked on ZCs door. And it had to be those steps, because the witness claims she saw the clock. Unless they went up the alley, turned left and walked all the way to Morton St, turned left and knocked there. That would be 10th and College Village.
They also have little steps leading up to them. It's like someone is describing two different events. In one, they sit on the steps and then walk up them and try to ring ZCs and then struggle up the alley. In the other, they make their struggling way up the alley up the alley and then knock on ZC's door, which I really don't think is accessible in the alley.
But, they could have struggled up the steps, went forward and then north on the walkway. Then, you could turn left, go a little ways and then enter a gigantic courtyard. From this inside courtyard, there are vestibules and iirc, tenants can be buzzed.
Lauren could have been involved in another altercation, at 10th and College, this time alone.
One more thing in that video. All during the video, they describe CR as Rossman, Corey, by name IOW. But when
describing the steps he almost stops himself for a few seconds before he says "he was below her a few steps."

 

[AbbeyR]

ok I just re-watched the very popular video from Lohud with Sean Cohen and the PIs . He tells the whole story, and I'm thinking, he's got his details in line, but at the end of the vid says, these facts have been gathered from many sources but we don't know how reliable they are because of the drugs and alcohol and other reasons, etc. So basically, in one of the first of his articles, he tells us his facts are unreliable.

At the end of the video, after the investigators recount the stories that POI at 5 N told about what happened the night Lauren disappeared, SC says:

The private investigators say that there are a lot of conflicting statements that night, and they're not sure whether to attribute it only to the fact that maybe they [the POI] were drinking and doing drugs, or to the fact that they are withholding information - they don't really have their stories straight.

BD is later quoted in an article:

The Spierers&#8217; private detectives, who have interviewed more than 100 people, have questioned nearly all of the &#8220;persons of interest&#8221; since they were hired by the family, with the exception of Rossman.

But they&#8217;re not satisfied with the ones who have talked. All of them have retained lawyers.

&#8220;A lot of those stories don&#8217;t line up, and there&#8217;s a lot of conflicting statements,&#8221; Dietl said. &#8220;Absolutely they were holding back information.&#8221;

http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

He is saying the stories of the POI are questionable. Is that what you meant when you said the LoHud articles have many facts wrong? I don't think they presented the POI's stories as facts...?

 

[AbbeyR]

Great list, Ros. I've wondered about a lot of those things too, and you've reminded me of a few questions that I had forgotten about. There's definitely some questions that have been mentioned in the last few pages that could be delved into more, IMO.

 

[kpeacock]

I've also always questioned the story that MB put CR to bed - just strange in many ways. A) is it not common knowledge that after getting punched in the face, sleeping is dangerous in case of concussion? B ) how common is it for guys to put each other to bed after partying, especially if they brought a guest home? A completely drunk girl who doesn't want to sleep on the couch, no less? C) after the drama and fight, any college kids I know would be up, pissed off, talking about it to anyone who would listen. Especially if they were doing cocaine, and had run out of liquor.

It just sounds like a lame cover story to me.

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk

 

[holly18]

I've also always questioned the story that MB put CR to bed - just strange in many ways. A) is it not common knowledge that after getting punched in the face, sleeping is dangerous in case of concussion? B ) how common is it for guys to put each other to bed after partying, especially if they brought a guest home? A completely drunk girl who doesn't want to sleep on the couch, no less? C) after the drama and fight, any college kids I know would be up, pissed off, talking about it to anyone who would listen. Especially if they were doing cocaine, and had run out of liquor.

It just sounds like a lame cover story to me.

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk

I also find it strange in the context of what we've been told about Cory's condition going through the alley (ie, up walking and talking, carried Lauren) did he get home and just crash? I don't buy that. Did MB decide CR was up past his bedtime and make him go to bed? I'd think MB would be interested in hearing about the altercation....

 

[Ixchel13]

At the end of the video, after the investigators recount the stories that POI at 5 N told about what happened the night Lauren disappeared, SC says:



BD is later quoted in an article:

http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

He is saying the stories of the POI are questionable. Is that what you meant when you said the LoHud articles have many facts wrong? I don't think they presented the POI's stories as facts...?

not just the POIs but also the witnesses, and, PIs, don't say it, guy from LoHud says it. Like I said before, LoHud has many articles about Lauren. When you read them you pick up things. Even the title, staggered away after night of heavy drinking and drug use. This is what gets me about that statement. If anyone, just any of these friends (besides DR-did he admit it?)
would admit to doing drugs with Lauren, I might believe she did it too.
Sorry to be picky about that but she didn't do this alone. So Lohud is relying on liars and printing the stories as if everything these little liars say is true.
If you can say the 5N are liars, I can say that her roommate might have
been involved somehow in the altercation. And, finally, the LoHud guy and the PIs never say the attackers came off the elevator, they say the attackers saw Lauren and CR near the elevators, and that the attack was in the alcove of the elevator. That might not be that big of a thing, but it does indicate the attackers were already on the floor. Your misquote sounds like these heroes just got off the elevator, saw CR abusing Lauren, and jumped in to save her. This just didn't happen, again, whatever deal ZO made with police freed him of any charges of assault, and, iirc, several others kicked CR while he was on the ground. ZO wasn't helping Lauren. If anything, we should wonder why CR didn't press charges and developed amnesia about the situation.
And a question: is it so hard to believe that CR was taking Lauren home? PIs state that ZO said, "you better take her to her room" and then attacked CR when he told them to eff off. IMO, he was going to "take her to her room" and that's what started the altercation. Then, my thought process leads me to ask myself why these thugs, at least one of them (ZO) was banned from even being there, felt secure enough to
cause an altercation--and that lead me to think he had the "blessing" of HT to keep CR out of hers and Lauren's apt because of her great
love for JW, iirc, she gushed about how much JW adored Lauren and how he was just the best boyfriend ever. Does anyone else think
she emphasized how wonderful a boyfriend he was to underscore that Lauren was a cheating girlfriend? IMO, HT was up to her ears in the altercation. I repeat, IMO, MOO, JMO.