IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[bx2]

In post #445, there are photos and descriptions of the cameras around the stairs, and Btown says that while there are no cameras pointed directly at the stairs, there is a camera on the NE corner, pointed south, that could have captured Lauren on video if she was near the top of the stairs.

If these are the stairs described in the LoHud video (I'm not clear on this), they do mention that she was sitting on the top step:

I believe this is Btown's picture of the camera in question:

While it may be facing south, once upon a time the view was focused on the northern-most College Ave entrance door. No view of the steps which are almost 200 feet away. Same goes for the other end arcade camera (http://imgur.com/4vtLxCk).

 

[Ixchel13]

You can't c&p the entire article, Ixchel. Only 10%. And I added a working link to your post.

I realize there is a problem with links that no longer work. I found a working one by snipping a sentence and pasting it into a google search. That often works. If not, sometimes you can find a cached version in google. And don't forget to check the media thread.

IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 * Media Links* - Page 8 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community




ETA: The primate site is banned here. If you try to link to it, the url will look like this www-*******-com. And no link, no post.

^^*This message is a reminder for everyone. Thanks.^^

thanks Bessie, for the google tip, now I know how to find these obscure links.

 

[Ixchel13]

Okay, here's what I understand - someone correct me if I'm wrong:

- She dropped her student ID card in the alley along with her keys - (Lohud p.4) This was found with her wristlet by someone who lived nearby and put on the railing:


- Jay claims Lauren had Fake ID and a SW key card at his place (LoHud p.5):



(It's not clear if this ID was ever found. There was a rumor in an anonymous comment online that claimed it was found on the street, but the information about the ID was incorrect, so it doesn't seem very reliable. Kilroy's was also fined because of this ID, but unclear whether this is because the fake ID was found, whether the bar scans ID, or other...)

- Lauren's roommates turned in her ID to police (Link above)



I would assume this would be her actual ID. I've noticed this is often reported in missing person cases, I would guess because it is used to file a missing person report and/or because leaving ID behind is an indication that the person didn't run away or leave of their own free will.

http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

Abbey, could you please post the links for each time you talked about the 1. student ID? and the 2.fake ID? page 5 of Lohud isn't a link is it?

BBM I really have a feeling they're talking about a fake ID here. Imagine going to the police station to report your friend missing. Would they then say, "do you have proof of your friend's ID?"

It sounds like they were looking for a reason why she was served at Kilroys, and when they questioned the roommate(s) they admitted that Lauren had one, and gave it to the cops. It's that simple. They cooperated, and IMO, these cops, not being the dummies that people have been saying they are, put two and two together and that's why we have more POIs than 4. Somehow, that fake ID got back inside her apt. And that would be enough to make someone go, "how did it get there?" Speculation.

Also, OT. people might also, and have, asked, "how did ZC know Lauren rang her bell if she was asleep?"

This brings it back to, is anyone, anyone in this situation telling the truth?

 

[AbbeyR]

Abbey, could you please post the links for each time you talked about the 1. student ID? and the 2.fake ID? page 5 of Lohud isn't a link is it?

I posted the link at the bottom of that post and noted the page numbers for each direct quote.

 

[AbbeyR]

Thanks Bx2! So from your understanding of the cameras at 10th & College, there are not cameras pointed at the stairs, but there are cameras at the entrances?

Also, do we know what stairs they are talking about in the LoHud video?

I'd be curious if either you or Btown have any thoughts on what video evidence LE was referring to that allowed them to discount the time of the witness account and put it an hour earlier...

 

[bx2]

Thanks Bx2! So from your understanding of the cameras at 10th & College, there are not cameras pointed at the stairs, but there are cameras at the entrances?

That is my understanding, yes.

Also, do we know what stairs they are talking about in the LoHud video?

I don't think it has ever been mentioned definitively, but imo is commonly believed to be the stairs leading up from 10th St. on the southern side of the walkway/arcade.

I'd be curious if either you or Btown have any thoughts on what video evidence LE was referring to that allowed them to discount the time of the witness account and put it an hour earlier...

I don't think there is anything in video evidence to support the witness story because I think the witness is describing events that weren't recorded on video. In other words I think it is discounted by omission. "we do not find any evidence that supports that information"

I also think LE were particularly cagey with info here. They intentionally left out detail that they had in possession from video where CR/LS visited 10&C and we found out about it two years later almost by accident because ZC decided to be more forthcoming. I don't know that there was any reason to withhold this particular portion of the SW -> 5N walk, but I do know it's caused me resentment. Potential witnesses in the area at the time may have been inadvertently misled into believing that they didn't see her when they may have had better info to report.

Qualters/LE lone comments addressing the bar manager witness: http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/22/news.qp-4391232.sto

 

[Mahouston69]

Interesting about the fake ID. If she did have it at JRs when he last saw her, then her roommates give it to Police...it got in their possession how? JW put in there after picking her up, and getting into her apt the next morning with the key? Did one of her roommates help in her disappearance from JRs?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

[Ixchel13]

I posted the link at the bottom of that post and noted the page numbers for each direct quote.

thanks AbbeyR. In your same link, it talks about JR going to Kilroys with CR and LS!! link is right above in AbbeyR's post. ^^

So, he wasn't at home, he went down the street, so he had to come back up the street, but doesn't admit to being present at the altercation, at least we don't know if he did, so he must have headed north. Did he stop off at 10th and College like Vidocq thinks?

Interesting that CR can't remember anywhere JR went.

 

[AbbeyR]

Qualters/LE lone comments addressing the bar manager witness: http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/22/news.qp-4391232.sto

<Snipped for space>

In case anyone is interested, here is the link to the press conference with the original comments. I think they are clearer in context, if you listen to the questions and answers rather than just reading that one, slightly confusing quote: http://www.idsnews.com/news/multimedia/media.aspx?id=39645&type=m

While I agree that it's not clear if the incident on the stairs was recorded, it is clear that there is video from this location, and: that there is no 'mystery man', according to LE, that they were able to place Lauren and the man (who is known to LE) an hour earlier, based on this video evidence, and that they also have video at 3:38 and that Lauren (or a 'mystery man') wasn't on it.

Of course, as you mention, they don't say a word about what is actually going on on video, beyond the location. So, it's hard to have a good sense of the cameras and what they may have recorded, but I'm wondering, for ex. if they have video of the area around 5 N, including the entrance, would this capture both CR and Lauren as well as the witness passing by? etc. Something like this would make the rest of their comments make sense.

This is also the press conference where they mention that they have already reviewed 300 hours of video surveillance and still have more to go. So that's promising!

 

[Ixchel13]

had to drive my kid to school, thought what the heck, I'll go up to
the "crime scene area"

drove up the alley between 10th and C and 10th and Villages. People looking at pictures of this alley will be seeing an optical illusion that occurs when something has a steep incline, IOW, you can't tell if it's going up, or down. The alley very steeply goes up, and always up. doesn't have any downward grade.
Vidocq, I hope you noticed that only 20 feet into the alley, to the left it opens up to a courtyard that has parking spaces, and the door to 10th and Villages Clubhouse is to the left, and entrance to 10th and V to the right. Straight ahead through this courtyard is a gated fence, locked, need a pass card, that opens up to Morton St. This gated door is also viable when you're on Morton Street. Only one camera here, attached to the gutter straight ahead, but not pointed down to the courtyard, more pointed towards the alley, doesn't seem like this camera does much. This agrees with the video surveillance that has them "ducking into a building" in the PI narrative. I forgot about that courtyard. Going up the alley further, about 40-50 feet, you have another courtyard just like the other one, with the same locked entry/exit gate on Morton Street, called 10th and Village North Entry on the gate. Both have entrances to 10th and Villages, both accessible from the alley AND Morton Street.
However, to the right in the alley, the 10th and College side of the alley, there are no doors, no entry to 10th and College, absolutely no access to 10th and College.
This is what I was trying to say all along, there is no way they knocked on a door, from the alley, to 10th and College, but two different ways to knock on a door at 10th and Villages.
IMO, they never actually ducked into a building, but ducked into the courtyard and tried to get into 10th and College Villages, found the right
entrance locked, maybe made some noise or tried to knock so someone, maybe not even who they were looking for, would buzz them in, but no one did.

In the NW corner of 10th and the Villages, there are two brand new cameras that were not there before. At the time of Lauren's demise, this was the corner before you get to the gravel lot, and bordered an alley that went east all the way to 10th St.

I do believe that Lauren was in this video. But nothing can make me believe that the bartender was part of this scenario. Because new rumors are circulating, but I'm not sure if I can post rumors. But with permission, I will post them, and they have never been discussed on any forum, anywhere, yet.

 

[akh]

Wouldn't a rumor just be a theory... or at least could be posted as a theory?

 

[Ixchel13]

Wouldn't a rumor just be a theory... or at least could be posted as a theory?

the rumor coming out of another bar is that the bar manager didn't work at
Jake's, is very torn up to this day about not helping Lauren and is absolutely
positive it was 3:38, and that Lauren was having an argument, not violent, but heated, with the guy, when she fell over and smacked her head. that's when she asked if Lauren needed help and the guy picked her up, and really this guy's version sounds very much like what we've heard.
how did we "find out" about Jake's? Is it a clever misinfo campaign? because
Jake's is closed and has been since before it was "known" it was Jake's in this instance. Vidocq can vouch, the entire crime area has been renovated, and now they are re-digging up areas around 9th, College between Smallwood just all around that area are little digging projects, spooky...maybe Vidocq can take pics of these excavations for us.
I don't think we need to find out who this witness is, but hope she will do the right thing when the time comes, and fwiw, I believe her. it almost seems to me that it may be true that everybody is lying for lots of reasons, incl. LE, except her.

 

[LongTallTexan]

Like another recent post, went back to btowns pic and redrew the route. In the picture (google earth aerial view) he marked cameras, last known sightings, and the path taken. Some interesting possibilities arise if we change the route based on some 'potential' information we have. For one, CR and LS go to 10 & Cottage to knock on ZC door, most likely taking a right (east) from the alley to 10th, headed toward the only door on the front of 10th & Cottage, now they are on cottage, but are picked up on camera at the SW corner of 10 & Cott. apts. (time?....could this sighting be before or after they knocked on ZCs door????_ and then lastely at the NW corner (in the alley) "making their way", at 2:51. This creates a bit of a detour on the route that we have currently mapped. If you believe the 'witness/bartender/female' sighting at 3:38, means she came back to 10th and Cottage, and if not picked up on camera, then she came either down the alley, avoided the camera at the NW corner and took the W-E alley (N of 10th & Cott. apts.) over to Cottage and south to the infamous stairs on the SE corner of 10th & Cott apts, where the digital (less interpretation required) clock is overhead? So, there could be another route altogether. When/if 'mystery man' picks her up, which way did they go....No more camera sighting after that? Did they go into 10th & Cott Garage off of 10th street, enter a car and depart? Where did mystery man come from, 10th & Cott Apts?....did someone call him there? Did someone call JR there?

The answers and truth, I believe, lie in what we don't know. I am appalled that LE/BD, FBI and Spierers don't have anything else to work with.....someone knows!!!!!!!

 

[AbbeyR]

the rumor coming out of another bar is that the bar manager didn't work at
Jake's, is very torn up to this day about not helping Lauren and is absolutely
positive it was 3:38, and that Lauren was having an argument, not violent, but heated, with the guy, when she fell over and smacked her head. that's when she asked if Lauren needed help and the guy picked her up, and really this guy's version sounds very much like what we've heard.<snipped for space>

In the version the witness supposedly told Gatto, Lauren couldn't even talk:

&#8220;She was completely out of it,&#8221; the witness told TonyGatto.com, &#8220;I had just come off work so I was totally sober. The guy was like, can I take you home, and she couldn&#8217;t even answer.&#8221;

http://tonygatto.com/2011/06/16/new...n-spierer-mystery-encounter-with-unknown-man/

This is also the description of the other witneses who saw her just minutes earlier.

 

[akh]

...Which is another reason it's hard to assign much weight to the stories and reports we're getting without actually hearing from these witnesses or PsOI directly.

Obviously a rumor carries much less weight than a Gatto interview... but then who is Tony Gatto and why was he chasing this case in the first place? And are we picking and choosing what parts of his witness we want to believe just to make try and wedge it into a conclusion? "The witness perfectly describes her condition" "The witness is wrong about the time"

And I agree LE couldn't have been any muddier with their statements about this witness. It was so poorly stated (if you were just looking for a straight answer) that it almost seems it had to be intentionally vague on purpose.

And now, there's a rumor that this witness is standing by the time and doesn't fit in with what we thought we already knew....

Hopefully LE has a better straightline running thru this case connecting dots and tossing out true noise (versus just believing what they want to believe) than the public does... or else this case will never be solved.

 

[AbbeyR]

Oh, I agree, Akh. I've been pretty clear that I have a lot of questions about TG's blog and don't consider it to be a reliable source.

When I think about this witness account, I give some weight to what has been stated by LE (such as, them concretely saying that the time is wrong), and what has been reported by the private investigators and in MSM (Such as, the 'mystery man' being identified by several sources as Corey Rossman). I also consider what is supported by other witness accounts and evidence. Like everyone, I have questions about this witness and information, but I rank the sources of information by reliability. We do have some some information from reliable sources, and that information seems fairly consistent. (Specifically: The private investigators and LE)

I give no weight to random rumors posted by anonymous people online, 3 years later. (No offense to anyone!)

 

[elmorejames]

TG's Blog was there from the start. Breaking new and fresh details LE and other outlets were not reporting. At the time we all relied on his findings.

In retrospect looking back 3 year later, I think he had an agenda to immerse himself in this story and had an agenda taking himself out of the story. IMO he chased this story all the way from NY and even traveled there to get some information which I find extremely odd. Did he know LS parents? Did he know a parent of the boyfriends or other POI? Again looking back it just seems out of place. Then all of the sudden he completely goes silent with his coverage as if he was paid off to stop covering the story after he dug deep and names were named. Almost like the JRNTT blog back in the infancy of this case. Anyone following from day one remembers the threats she was receiving.

Another thing about the bartender and the 3:38 witness if it did happen at that exact time, she was leaving work for the night? And if earlier in the night, was she stopping by to see a guy and returning to work? If that's the case, could she have been meeting up with someone for illegal substances hence why she hasn't come forward since?

Just chiming in since it's been a while.

 

[AbbeyR]

Good questions EJ, but I question whether TG was really 'digging deep' - almost all of his blog posts were just recapping info from other articles. He was interested in 'breaking news' (that's what he does - he is not an investigative journalist), and when the news was no longer breaking, he was gone.

The only two blog entries that really broke new information were the 'mystery man' post, and the other post about the witness at Kilroy's, and that info turned out not to be true. He also came up with a few other bits of information and stories from 'insider sources' here on WS, which he himself ended up questioning later.

There are many reasons why I'm skeptical about his reporting about the witness account, and I've already shared a few:

- He only talked to her once, and couldn't answer even basic questions about her account, because according to TG, she wouldn't speak to him again

- He claims she insisted that the mystery man wasn't Corey, but I find it a little odd that every single one of TG's posts had this very theme. Remember the other witness claimed to insist Lauren wasn't with Corey at the Bar? Or the other one who said Corey ran out of Smallwood on his own?... In each case, information came out from video surveillance, LE, etc. and it turned out that those specific parts were totally false.

I wrote a few posts about this in more detail (like this one: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9903925&postcount=111"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31[/ame])

- I also think he was trying very hard to match up this description with people who he knew of - I can think of a few examples where it seems to me like his theory and descriptions evolved toward people who he thought could potentially be involved, based on random comments that were made on PT, here, and twitter.

TG was not an objective journalist - he laid out a theory and spelled out here what it was. He said flat out that he didn't "believe" Corey was involved, and that Corey was "the most forthcoming" of the POI (odd since he has amnesia, no?) And that belief seems to have influenced his blog, IMO. This wouldn't be a problem if people understood his blog to be a blog, but he was at the same time adamant that he was writing as a journalist, not a blogger.

He was writing at the very beginning, and maybe he would be able to clear up a lot of these questions or add to our discussion. It's too bad he's chosen to step away!

 

[bessie]

In the version the witness supposedly told Gatto, Lauren couldn't even talk:



http://tonygatto.com/2011/06/16/new...n-spierer-mystery-encounter-with-unknown-man/

This is also the description of the other witneses who saw her just minutes earlier.

That's true, Abbey, but one comment from the PI that was of particular significance to me seems to refute that notion.

This is not verbatim, but it's pretty close. You guys will know what I mean. When asked about LS's condition, he said, "Oh, she was alive and well! Well...maybe not so well, but she was alive."

His expressions and inflection when he said the first sentence gave me the impression what he really meant was "alive and kicking". In other words, LS was animated -- albeit probably wobbly and incoherent -- but definitely moving parts of her body and speaking.

JMO

http://archive.lohud.com/flash/spierer/index.html

 

[AbbeyR]

Here's the quote: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7997448&postcount=585"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27[/ame]

It was a response to a question about whether she was conscious. So yes, I also took it to mean she was alive and at least semi-conscious at that point... they go on to describe how they made their way back to 5 N, as a combination of Lauren staggering, and Corey pulling and carrying her, though they also describe her falling on the ground several times. But, he specifically catches himself to correct the 'well' part... and makes no mention of her speaking at all.

I think it's significant that none of the witnesses have mentioned her talking even though they all interacted with Corey. Especially since the witnesses appear to be concerned about Lauren, and even asking if she was okay. But there's no indication of any response from her, only Corey speaking on her behalf. Several times, however, it has been mentioned that she couldn't talk, or that she was incoherent.

This is echoed in the lawsuit docs, which say several witnesses described her as 'incapacitated' and 'non-responsive'.

JMO