IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[bx2]

Since this comes up pretty frequently, thought you guys may want the link to where TG confirms that the PI video is referencing the same witness that he had spoken to:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8387998&postcount=446"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28[/ame]

 

[sammi89]

I didn't get a chance to answer this, got a time out for not posting a link. I clicked on your link to Zoe's story, and the story was no longer there, as you pointed out. So how could you read the article? genuinely asking, because the only thing left on that link is just the sentence you posted, and it was the slug for the article. Slug--editor speak for lead in.

Anyway, iirc, and if someone has the link saved, please post it, most of her sympathy was for JR, whom she even described as pouring his heart out and crying to her about letting Lauren leave.
My point is, and JMO only, to talk about that article and not mention what she said about JR is to
miss the propaganda she may have been spreading.

That was my point, and over a year later, she comes out in the news with this?
IDK, she just sounds phony as all get out, that's all.

How did you read it then?

I'm assuming the same way I did - when it was available on lohud, you read it then lol.

I have a quote from it that is from elsewhere on the web and it has been quoted several times on this forum as well.

<modsnip>

I assume the quote is on the second page because this excerpt didn't include it, but regardless, you can see that the article did include that when it was available per my original link:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9CCorey+introduced+me+to+her+as+a+girl+he+had+met+the+previous+weekend+at+the+Indy+500+car+race%2C%E2%80%9D+she+wrote&oq=%E2%80%9CCorey+introduced+me+to+her+as+a+girl+he+had+met+the+previous+weekend+at+the+Indy+500+car+race%2C%E2%80%9D+she+wrote&aqs=chrome..69i57.1931j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

&#8220;Corey introduced me to her as a girl he had met the previous weekend at the Indy 500 car race,&#8221; she wrote

Your point on ZC's possible agenda has been discussed elsewhere and wasn't really relevant at that point in the discussion. It may or may not be true, but I don't think it says much as to whether or not CR actually introduced LS as someone he had just met to a friend of his, which was the only point I was making in quoting that post.

ETA: Can you please link to the story where ZC is describing JR being torn up, or copy the relevant portion from a saved copy from this particular article, if that is where it is from? I don't recall that portion and would be interested in reading it.

 

[sammi89]

The Private Investigators do not say the bar manager was leaving work:

(from the transcript posted above)

I really think that is where most of the confusion is. For the longest time, I also thought she was leaving work and didn't realize she was the same witness visiting a boy.

If she's visiting a boy and NOT closing the bar, there's really no issue with the bar closing time because she wasn't working that night.

 

[Ixchel13]

A note on bar closing times: it's been a few years since I was drinking (but I drank like a fish in Bloomington for about a decade before that). Now that I think about it, last call is 2:45, closing is 3, and they kick you out at 3:30. So, that would be in line with a bar manager leaving at 3:30, walking a few blocks, and seeing something at 3:38.

Yes, I think she was at work, or else why use the title, bar manager instead of female witness, right?

iirc, in the original version, I could be wrong, but the bar manager says she
made a circle around to see if they made it ok? If she were leaving from the NE steps and her car was out front, it would be easy to jump in the car,drive around the block, past the alley, past 10th and Villages and you'd end up right at the corner of 11th and Morton, and JR's apt directly to your right. No cameras.

But AbbeyR is right, she could have just been at an apt around there, even with a POI, we don't know I guess. We know, or think we know, she was "visiting a boy"is the weird way they put it. no reason whatsoever it couldn't be someone involved in this. And no reason to think she came forward willingly. LE could have seen her somewhere else on camera and had her id'd. It's strange that they never say,"and you see the witness in the background looking concerned," or, "and the witness can be seen asking if they need help."
or, "the witness can be seen in her car circling the block." No reference whatever of her being on camera. Something weird about this witness, time, place, description of guy, idk what else?

 

[Ixchel13]

How did you read it then?

I'm assuming the same way I did - when it was available on lohud, you read it then lol.

I have a quote from it that is from elsewhere on the web and it has been quoted several times on this forum as well.




I assume the quote is on the second page because this excerpt didn't include it, but regardless, you can see that the article did include that when it was available per my original link:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%...hrome&ie=UTF-8



Your point on ZC's possible agenda has been discussed elsewhere and wasn't really relevant at that point in the discussion. It may or may not be true, but I don't think it says much as to whether or not CR actually introduced LS as someone he had just met to a friend of his, which was the only point I was making in quoting that post.

ETA: Can you please link to the story where ZC is describing JR being torn up, or copy the relevant portion from a saved copy from this particular article, if that is where it is from? I don't recall that portion and would be interested in reading it.

Sammi, I was referencing your link, which was ZC's story, but now is archived or something. IOW, your link was empty when I clicked on it, and I believe you said you knew that, and I was trying to recall the story from memory, and asked if someone had it and would they please post it.
The only excerpt I could find in your original link was the sentence that lead into the story about ZC being introduced to LS.

Here's the deal about ZC. She's in the timeline.
First, she's a witness to Lauren and others partying, and knows who was there. Second, Lauren tries to get into her apt even while being very inebriated. Any detective would want to know why. Third, over a year later,
unbidden, she comes out in the news with her version of the storyOIs are being scapegoated. So earnest is she, she almost made me believe they were all innocent! She came out of nowhere and fanned the flames, are we expected not to speculate why?
also when I just clicked on your link above, already on google chrome, it wasn't a link to ZC, but a link to download google chrome. (?)

 

[Ixchel13]

Well, if it was the same witness, then I would say that the PIs are putting it in the wrong place time-wise. I believe all sources agree, at least, that the bar manager *claimed* it was 3:38.

One thing that would support this: CR and Lauren, according to the timeline, only had 6 minutes to get from SW to the 10th street alley. Considering it took them 3 minutes just to get through the alley itself, I'd say 6 minutes to get to the alley doesn't leave them any time to sit around on steps.

And what about my point about Lauren and CR visiting Tenth & College after the alley? Doesn't that prove that cameras inside Tenth & College weren't working, if that visit isn't on tape?

BBM, that is one of the things that first made me wonder...

 

[AbbeyR]

Yes, I think she was at work, or else why use the title, bar manager instead of female witness, right?

iirc, in the original version, I could be wrong, but the bar manager says she
made a circle around to see if they made it ok? If she were leaving from the NE steps and her car was out front, it would be easy to jump in the car,drive around the block, past the alley, past 10th and Villages and you'd end up right at the corner of 11th and Morton, and JR's apt directly to your right. No cameras.

But AbbeyR is right, she could have just been at an apt around there, even with a POI, we don't know I guess. We know, or think we know, she was "visiting a boy"is the weird way they put it. no reason whatsoever it couldn't be someone involved in this. And no reason to think she came forward willingly. LE could have seen her somewhere else on camera and had her id'd. It's strange that they never say,"and you see the witness in the background looking concerned," or, "and the witness can be seen asking if they need help."
or, "the witness can be seen in her car circling the block." No reference whatever of her being on camera. Something weird about this witness, time, place, description of guy, idk what else?

- They do use 'female witness' not 'bar manager', as you can see in the transcript. I used 'bar manager' because that is how the witness is known on this board.

- They also don't use that kind of awkward language in the narrative when they describe the altercation at 5 N, and we know this is on video.

 

[sammi89]

Sammi, I was referencing your link, which was ZC's story, but now is archived or something. IOW, your link was empty when I clicked on it, and I believe you said you knew that, and I was trying to recall the story from memory, and asked if someone had it and would they please post it.
The only excerpt I could find in your original link was the sentence that lead into the story about ZC being introduced to LS.

Here's the deal about ZC. She's in the timeline.
First, she's a witness to Lauren and others partying, and knows who was there. Second, Lauren tries to get into her apt even while being very inebriated. Any detective would want to know why. Third, over a year later,
unbidden, she comes out in the news with her version of the storyOIs are being scapegoated. So earnest is she, she almost made me believe they were all innocent! She came out of nowhere and fanned the flames, are we expected not to speculate why?
also when I just clicked on your link above, already on google chrome, it wasn't a link to ZC, but a link to download google chrome. (?)

I'm not sure why the link did that. I updated it though and it appears to work now.

I'm well aware that it was my link and that the article has been moved or something, which is why I posted a larger excerpt from the same article in my last post. Unfortunately, the part you are referring to either didn't exist in that particular article or wasn't included in the excerpt I found. That is the only portion I can find. Perhaps you can search whether the portion you are referring to was quoted elsewhere or if someone has the article saved, they could chime in with that portion (tia!). I would be interested in reading that part.

It's fine if you want to speculate on ZC's statements. Your one sentence response made me think you were trying to comment on the point I was trying to make (CR introducing LS as someone he just met). It appears that you are trying to address the separate issue of whether ZC had an agenda or not. Respectfully, if you are quoting a post by me but addressing a different point, it would be less confusing for me if you actually explained that.

Again, I didn't read the article the way you interpreted it, but I also don't recall the portion you think was there. I'm also not sure that LS was the one who wanted to get in ZC's apartment either though.

 

[Vidocq]

"Shorty after 3am", it says, about them ringing ZC's bell. More confirmation that ZC was visited after the "last video" of Lauren leaving the alley at 2:51! This continues to cause me to suspect that video from Tenth & College is either missing or was never recorded, thereby making proper disproof of the bar manager by video problematic. If I could interview anybody, it'd be the security people in charge of those cameras then.

 

[AbbeyR]

Also, Gatto's original account of the witness does not include anything about making a circle to 'make sure they got back ok'.

There was a poster here who told a similar story that they heard from others in which the witness doubled back when she saw Lauren looking severely intoxicated to ask if she was okay, which may be where this came from:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7189022&postcount=379"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #25[/ame]

 

[bx2]

"Shorty after 3am", it says, about them ringing ZC's bell. More confirmation that ZC was visited after the "last video" of Lauren leaving the alley at 2:51! This continues to cause me to suspect that video from Tenth & College is either missing or was never recorded, thereby making proper disproof of the bar manager by video problematic. If I could interview anybody, it'd be the security people in charge of those cameras then.

It's a typo that wasn't corrected. There have been quite a few of these unfortunately.

 

[bx2]

Since kpeacock published the response received from BPD ([ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494348&postcount=904"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32[/ame])

I've been curious about this part-

In the interest of fairness to them--and in recognition that we have very limited resources that precludes us from fulfilling those requests--we must decline your offer as well. We have not shared any case investigation reports with anyone, but your group could make a request under public access and get whatever any other request has received.

Someone attempted to use FOIA to obtain BPD documentation as of last year:

http://www.justice.gov/oip/docs/closed-foia-log-july-2013.pdf; p12, and were passed along to the state level.

Ok, lets check out Indiana code. IC 5-14-3-4 version a (b)(1): all 'Investigatory records of law enforcement agencies' are excepted from the public's right to inspect. To me, Qualters' suggestion that "your group could make a request under public access and get whatever any other request has received" appears to be a time waster and dead end leading to easy denial.


However, certain LE documents (detailed in IC 5-14-3-5) must be made available. There aren't any relevant arrest or summons records of interest that I can think of, but IC 5-14-3-5 (c) does mention:

(c) An agency shall maintain a daily log or record that lists suspected crimes, accidents, or complaints, and the following information shall be made available for inspection and copying:
(1) The time, substance, and location of all complaints or requests for assistance received by the agency.
(2) The time and nature of the agency's response to all complaints or requests for assistance.
(3) If the incident involves an alleged crime or infraction:
(A) the time, date, and location of occurrence;
(B) the name and age of any victim, unless the victim is a victim of a crime under IC 35-42-4 or IC 35-42-3.5;
(C) the factual circumstances surrounding the incident; and
(D) a general description of any injuries, property, or weapons involved.
The information required in this subsection shall be made available for inspection and copying in compliance with this chapter. The record containing the information must be created not later than twenty-four (24) hours after the suspected crime, accident, or complaint has been reported to the agency.

I would think this may apply to the initial police report; time it was made, who was present, and details reported. Is there anything there or elsewhere in another ongoing investigation exception that may help inform the public to something? It's a bit of effort to go through the process of filing, so I was hoping to hear ideas that may be beneficial to the investigation rather than confirming a piece of gossip or satisfying someone's curiosity of a timestamp. Thoughts?

 

[Vidocq]

I'm sorry; I meant "shortly after 3am" (from the ZC story). Is that the typo you mean? (I can't look at your attachment on my low-tech phone.) My point is, it was after 2:51, after they left the alley for the last time.

 

[bx2]

I'm sorry; I meant "shortly after 3am" (from the ZC story). Is that the typo you mean? (I can't look at your attachment on my low-tech phone.) My point is, it was after 2:51, after they left the alley for the last time.

Yeah. Should read shortly before 3am. When the article came out, that time raised some eyes, so I e-mailed the author who confirmed it needed changed.

 

[Ixchel13]

Since this comes up pretty frequently, thought you guys may want the link to where TG confirms that the PI video is referencing the same witness that he had spoken to:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

respectfully snipped from above link^

"The witness was shown a photo lineup and she says none of the six or so photos, presumably Spierer&#8217;s friends who have been named persons of interest, matched the mystery man.

The witness has viewed a photo of Corey Rossman, the Indiana University student who was with Spierer at Kilroy&#8217;s Sports Bar and at both their apartments that night, and she says she does not believe Rossman is the man who she saw with Spierer that night.

&#8220;She was completely out of it,&#8221; the witness told TonyGatto.com, &#8220;I had just come off work so I was totally sober. The guy was like, can I take you home, and she couldn&#8217;t even answer.&#8221;

The timing of the witness&#8217;s spotting is crucial. She says she noted the exact time, for some reason, after she encountered Lauren. She is adamant that it was exactly 3:38am. Bloomington police today released a timeline that places Lauren in an alley between 10th and 11th streets at 2:51 a.m. with a man who they will not identify. They say that is the last corroboration that they have of Lauren&#8217;s whereabouts."

so this post of TG's sounds like he's sticking to his guns and so does the witness. Note that the witness has just come off work
again, Qualters says ambiguously that he can't say she didn't see Lauren, but not at the time during that video sequence.

just noticed this:"The witness has viewed a photo of Corey Rossman, the Indiana University student who was with Spierer at Kilroy&#8217;s Sports Bar and at both their apartments that night" this is saying CR was at both of their apts-his, and her's too?

 

[Ixchel13]

I'm sorry; I meant "shortly after 3am" (from the ZC story). Is that the typo you mean? (I can't look at your attachment on my low-tech phone.) My point is, it was after 2:51, after they left the alley for the last time.

and a good point it is.

 

[akh]

just noticed this:"The witness has viewed a photo of Corey Rossman, the Indiana University student who was with Spierer at Kilroy’s Sports Bar and at both their apartments that night" this is saying CR was at both of their apts-his, and her's too?

We know CR was at Smallwood and allegedly LS was at 5N in CR's apartment. I think that would probably explain that comment. But who knows? Early reporting was all over the place with mistakes so it's hard to say what they might've meant, let alone what they just got flat out wrong.

 

[Ixchel13]

http://wordpress.tonygatto.com/2011...stery-man-in-lauren-spierer-case/#comment-709

here's TG commenting on witness and timeline. he's returning a comment about a comment about his witness interview.
bummer! it won't link, I'll go back and paste it:

Tony Gatto

June 23, 2011 at 2:02 pm

"Wow. That would be crazy. I suppose it&#8217;s possible. They seem to have messed-up on the timing and info of the truck. Also, if you look at the direct quote of Qualters on this it is very confusing, he talks about a video that is not from that location, because we&#8217;re pretty sure there is no camera there. Then he talks about the timeframe not matching up &#8212; saying what the witness saw happened an hour earlier, which puts it at 2:38 close to their 2:51 timeline. This woman told me she was absolutely sure it was 3:38. I don&#8217;t think she&#8217;s lying and it seems that police think she&#8217;s pretty credible because they&#8217;ve met her twice and are talking about her to the press. In defense of the police, witnesses get stuff wrong all the time."

 

[Mahouston69]

Ok, so..what proof do we have that Lauren left JRs at 4:30, except JRs statements? What if she was only at CRs, MB, and JRs for approximately 40 minutes, "walked" home at 3:30, ran into mystery man and mystery man disappeared her?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

[Ixchel13]

Ok, so..what proof do we have that Lauren left JRs at 4:30, except JRs statements? What if she was only at CRs, MB, and JRs for approximately 40 minutes, "walked" home at 3:30, ran into mystery man and mystery man disappeared her?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

on TG's site, one guy had a theory (don't need a link, repeating just a theory)
that LE was saying that the mystery man was known to LE. and then he was theorizing it didn't necessarily mean he was CR;

A few people were theorizing that LE had JW on tape somewhere, others were saying they heard a rumor that the last roommate to see JW was at 2:30 a.m.
And they made no mention of a ball game being watched.
I fell asleep reading the posts and theories on TG