IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[Ixchel13]

https://www.google.com/maps/place/1...2!3m1!1s0x8824c7a90709b8f3:0xd66cae1ae5dd7e8c

After a long search of the street views of the 123 and 225 W. Brown Street, I have determined that they are in the same building, or 225 fronts the street and 123 is directly behind, attached. So the businesses weren't down the street from each other, but
in the same building. So, JR's business, and a business that JW was representing, frontman for, on TV for, not necessarily physically at, but a business he was the spokesman for, were in the same building/connected buildings, in August of 2011, 2 mos after Lauren disappeared.

This is to establish that JR and JW seem to have the strongest ties of the POIs , just sayin'

 

[Ixchel13]

I'm sorry my post wasn't more clear. I thought it was understood that the timeline had been revised. My intent was to show that at one point, BPD did state 3:15-3:30 was the time LS was on video exiting the alley, as there seemed to be a question about that.

FWIW, I found these partial transcripts in my old notes. It will help to explain (somewhat) the timeline confusion and the revisions.

(R=Reporter; Q=Qualters)

JUNE 12, 2013 AUDIO TAPE 6 (between the one-third and halfway mark of the tape)

R: What is the last time and the last location that a video camera, through independent observation...a videocamera that you know Lauren was?

Q: I believe that would be in the area of 3:15-3:30

R: And that would be where?

Q: That would be somewhere north of 10th St?

R: In those alleys back there?

Q: Somewhere north of 10th St

R: And that would be because you see her on a camera?

Q: Yes

R: Walking south to north?

Q: No

R: Okay, was she walking in a certain direction, and did she have anybody with her?

Q: I'm not going to get into the specifics about what we've seen at this point. We've talked about the video that we've received, and we're going to maintain custody of that video, and not release any specific details about it.

Police locate keys of missing IU student Lauren Spierer

----------------------------------------------------------

JUNE 16, 2011 AUDIO TAPE 10 (a little shy of the halfway point)

R: What seems to be missing here is the video that shows her from 3:15-3:30.

Q: Well, again I think that was a preliminary figure given, and these are more of the revised times.

R: So where on there would that video be?

Q: That video would probably be down in here around point No. 4

R: So now we're saying that video was closer to 2:51 am, rather than 3:15-3:30

Q: I think that we have determined through the video that we're looking at a little bit prior to 3:00 am, whereas before I think that initial time was listed as 3:15... I know that we've used that figure 3:-15-3:30...now that we've had a chance to analyze and review the video...I think we're far more comfortable with this.

Q: Now the only other thing I can say would be that, keeping in mind that if we at the time released that information, there may be some variance based on...we're relying on these times as they were listed by the businesses. So, maybe we were using different figures of time but now that we've got some documentation we're more comfortable with these figures, again, recognizing that thereis going to be some variance.

R: Yeah, a few minutes, but we're talking about 2:51 is now the estimated time, as opposed to, let's say, 3:15-3:30...

Q: So we're talking about a 20 minute time period, but you've got to keep in mind...the locations and documentation are essentially the same. There's just been some variation in the time that we originally released.

Police release updated timeline, search headquarters changed

------------------------------------------------------------------
Links to audio recordings of 15 BPD press briefs can be found on this page.

http://idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81917

thanks Bessie, that clears up that Lauren was last seen on video at approx 2:51 coming out of the alley. IIRC, The rest of any Lauren sitings is on the record so far as being eyewitness accounts only?

.

 

[Ixchel13]

http://www.lohud.com/flash/spierer/

here's a link someone posted on Lauren Spierer #30

it gives 4 interviews. Click on the Bo Dietl interview.

Almost right at the beginning, he brings up "the boyfriend", that's what he calls him, not friendly familiar like Jesse, etc, and says he's a suspect too, that "the boyfriend gave conflicting statements." The LoHud reporter asks, "what were those conflicting statements?" and Dietl replies, "about being home and all that...."
Makes ya wonder what he means by 'and all that...." doesn't it? Because you can almost hear the dot...dot...dot after all that.

But what it doesn't make me wonder is if the PIs think JW is a suspect.

 

[Ixchel13]

Well, it's graduation time, here in Bloomington. Students and their relatives are all about downtown. I've already been asked to take a photograph of a big family, standing in front of the court house.

But I've been doing some sleuthing. I thought some new pictures might be interesting to others. (My phone is cheap, so the photos aren't great. And I'm using the downtown library's computer, so I'll run out of time before I can comment on the photos much.)

The photo called "Jake's" is of the bar suspected of being the bar where Gatto's witness worked. You can see SW in the background.

Alley 1 and 2 are of the alley I believe is being referred to as Lauren's last recorded location on video. Cameras are at both ends. As you can see, the gravel lot is no longer a gravel lot: an apartment building has gone up there.

"5N 2" is a shot of JR's balcony, from 11th and College, to attempt to judge if he could have seen her from there.

Vidocq, welcome to Websleuths, we have some theories in common, looking very forward to discussing them with you here! was over in the area in question, and see that they've extended an alley all the way up to 5N.

There are cameras on all 3 steps not pointed at steps however, more towards the arcades. My boss who takes care of cameras for a residential building says, these cameras are very easily misdirected, are misdirected on a regular basis, and he has to service them almost every day for such misdirections. IIRC, the owner of 10th and College or one of his reps stated that the cameras are being serviced on a 24/7 basis. To me, IMO, it sounds like problems with his cameras
may happen on a regular basis.

 

[Ixchel13]

In this same interview, Shawn Cohen states that Lauren told MB that she wanted to go home, and she wanted to find her cell phone. If they are even telling the truth about that, it shows that Lauren was coherent enough to want her phone as well as go home.

IMO, she somehow doubled back, but on the West side, on Morton St. There was a struggle,
because ______________________________and she accidentally hit her head or someone pushed her or tried to restrain her and during this struggle she hit her head. IMO, she died from
this blow. That someone could then have easily blamed the 5N POIs for this, saying they found her on the ground like that, thus drawing everyone into it...except CR, he gets to claim amnesia so the head smack can get inserted into the narrative earlier and clear the culprit, not only from the death scene, but any of the stalking that might have occurred starting from the moment she left the SW party with DR. JMO, MOO, speculation, theory, IMHO. In this theory, I also think
JR and/or others may have already notified the culprit, knew the culprit was looking for Lauren, but didn't tell Lauren.

sorry so many posts in a row, tried to add this on ^ but it wouldn't allow it.

 

[Ixchel13]

Yes, I agree about CR entirely. I have never liked the way he has come off between his attitude and how he has never seemed to show any true remorse for how things turned out. At the end of the day, even if he is not involved in the ultimate outcome, if he had just left her at Smallwood, things would probably be much different. We probably wouldn't ever hear about LS. I get why JR and JW have lawyered up, but MB and CR I have been less sympathetic to. The Spierers have expressed frustration with CR's blanket refusal to talk specifically - he can point to both MB and JR, so I don't get it either.

I'm just trying to think of ways to limit how many people might truly be "in the know" about what happened to LS. I think it's less likely that several people could keep quiet over the years, but stranger things have happened, so who knows.


----------------------------
OT to current post but related to points that have come up in the recent past:

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20666241,00.html

If it is was both JW plus the 2 girls, that makes sense. Some reports have just reported on one or the other when it is really both.

BW HAS questioned the boys involvement and says their stories don't add up. I'm assuming MB is included:


----------------
http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20505349,00.html
I have posted on CR's lawyer pointing the finger at JW, but it looks like CR himself was doing it too. IMO, this finger pointing between each set of POIs tends to convince me that it is very unlikely that a situation involving MB/CR/JR/JW working together happened. It also sounds like CR may have at least made some statements to friends/neighbors, so hopefully LE and the PIs have talked to them too, or they stepped forward voluntarily!


------------------

http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/09/25/news.qp-8106808.sto
LE and FBI do not share with BD, but BD does send evidence/leads on to them:



IMO, it sounds like they have seen some kind of video and if there were multiple cameras that might have captured it, it seems possible that LE could have video from one source and the PI could have gotten it from another. I understand why some might question what they have viewed though.


Sorry for length/randomness. I'm procrastinating on the stuff I should really be doing lol.

BBM yes, they could have purchased or were given other video. IIRC, the head smack is not reported to have been seen on any of these video discussions. I realize that the head smack is inserted
into the discussion of the video as an eyewitness account, but the eye witness account time does not match the time of the video account. As someone, I think Vidocq or doubting thomas said, the bars were closed, they close at 3.
A bar manager usually stays til close so it is very likely she saw Lauren after 3, but it isn't on a camera.

 

[Ixchel13]

I erased one of my posts, i think, so I'll do over. In the above link with the interviews, that I posted above, there is the first interview titled "new info about Laurens path" click on that. As LoHud reporter tells the story of Lauren and Corey's progress, he has Lauren sitting down on the steps for the second time. Then, he pans the camera pass the row of townhouse steps on Morton Street composing 10th and College Villages. Was the door Lauren knocked on at The Villages or 10th and College Apartments?. The bar manager definitely has them at 10th and College apts, but the Shawn Cohen footage is going past the steps of all the townhouses at 10th and College Villages. If Lauren left JR's by the west side instead of turning east towards College Ave, JR would be able to easily see her turn the corner, since his townhouse is the first on the corner of MORTON and 11th not College and 11th. The first townhouse she would come to at 10th and Villages is less than 45 seconds from JR's door. If a second confrontation happened here, it would not be on camera. And, if they put her in a car, no camera leaving. CR's amnesia makes it easy to insert the death blow in the earlier narrative, at 10th and College. Just don't understand why Shawn Cohen would put the footage of 10th and Morton in there for nothing, especially as Sammi pointed out, he may have gotten his info and footage from another source who knew something else; or IMO even disagreed with the official LE storyline. So JR may have lied and had her head off in the opposite direction, diverting attn from the west side.
link: http://www.lohud.com/flash/spierer/

there is a way the bartender could have noted the time. If she were leaving 10th and College from the NE steps, she could have seen someone pick up Lauren in the alley leading to Morton St and that would lead to the first townhouse of the Villages, also 45 seconds from JR's townhouse at the corner of Morton and 11th, on the west side, no cameras pointing this direction at all. For everything bad to be off camera, had to be on the NW side. Standing there at the NE steps, she could look south and see the big clock. I was there yesterday and stood right there, could see west down the alley and south to the clock. If LS and CR were sitting on these steps, then
everything she said could have happened, EXCEPT ducking into the building. This had to happen at the big steps, in front, earlier. so, IMO, one incident in front of 10th and College, another around the corner from JR's at 10th and Villages. Both have steps, both include Lauren, but at different times.

 

[Ixchel13]

I don't know why there is an assumption that the fall is not captured on video. I don't think this is stated by the private investigators or LE...?

The part about the witness seeing (and hearing) Lauren fall and then Corey slinging her over his shoulder is described in the LoHud video and timeline.

Ftr, part of the video is transcribed here, if that helps: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7997448&highlight=transcribed#post7997448

Here's a snippet:




And, for comparison: As told by Gatto (who confirmed the PIs were talking about the same witness he interviewed)



Edited to add: And as I quoted in post #57

in your link, when the PI says, "and that's when we have a witness who saw...." he's inserting an eye witness account into the video narrative." The PIs do that and also make summary judgements not backed up by video, like calling ZO a "stand up guy" when discussing the SW altercation footage, which LE has stated they have confiscated and not shared with anyone and the Spierers have said they haven't seen. Also, they don't say it is,and they don't say it isn't, on video. Head smack, that is. The falls, yes, they state clearly they are on video.

Your links and transcriptions are very helpful, I just think there are many mitigating, contradicting, and just downright deceptive factors in place and
probably for a reason, a reason we are not allowed to know or share with LE at this time. So, I have my opinions and I welcome anyone to disagree.

 

[Ixchel13]

I'm sorry my post wasn't more clear. I thought it was understood that the timeline had been revised. My intent was to show that at one point, BPD did state 3:15-3:30 was the time LS was on video exiting the alley, as there seemed to be a question about that.

FWIW, I found these partial transcripts in my old notes. It will help to explain (somewhat) the timeline confusion and the revisions.

(R=Reporter; Q=Qualters)

JUNE 12, 2013 AUDIO TAPE 6 (between the one-third and halfway mark of the tape)

R: What is the last time and the last location that a video camera, through independent observation...a videocamera that you know Lauren was?

Q: I believe that would be in the area of 3:15-3:30

R: And that would be where?

Q: That would be somewhere north of 10th St?

R: In those alleys back there?

Q: Somewhere north of 10th St

R: And that would be because you see her on a camera?

Q: Yes

R: Walking south to north?

Q: No

R: Okay, was she walking in a certain direction, and did she have anybody with her?

Q: I'm not going to get into the specifics about what we've seen at this point. We've talked about the video that we've received, and we're going to maintain custody of that video, and not release any specific details about it.

Police locate keys of missing IU student Lauren Spierer

----------------------------------------------------------

JUNE 16, 2011 AUDIO TAPE 10 (a little shy of the halfway point)

R: What seems to be missing here is the video that shows her from 3:15-3:30.

Q: Well, again I think that was a preliminary figure given, and these are more of the revised times.

R: So where on there would that video be?

Q: That video would probably be down in here around point No. 4

R: So now we're saying that video was closer to 2:51 am, rather than 3:15-3:30

Q: I think that we have determined through the video that we're looking at a little bit prior to 3:00 am, whereas before I think that initial time was listed as 3:15... I know that we've used that figure 3:-15-3:30...now that we've had a chance to analyze and review the video...I think we're far more comfortable with this.

Q: Now the only other thing I can say would be that, keeping in mind that if we at the time released that information, there may be some variance based on...we're relying on these times as they were listed by the businesses. So, maybe we were using different figures of time but now that we've got some documentation we're more comfortable with these figures, again, recognizing that thereis going to be some variance.

R: Yeah, a few minutes, but we're talking about 2:51 is now the estimated time, as opposed to, let's say, 3:15-3:30...

Q: So we're talking about a 20 minute time period, but you've got to keep in mind...the locations and documentation are essentially the same. There's just been some variation in the time that we originally released.

Police release updated timeline, search headquarters changed

------------------------------------------------------------------
Links to audio recordings of 15 BPD press briefs can be found on this page.

http://idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81917

R: Yeah, a few minutes, but we're talking about 2:51 is now the estimated time, as opposed to, let's say, 3:15-3:30...

Q: So we're talking about a 20 minute time period, but you've got to keep in mind...the locations and documentation are essentially the same. There's just been some variation in the time that we originally released.

respectfully snipped, he doesn't really agree with reporter about the time change, using a 20 minute time period from.2:51 gives you 3:11 a.m and would not agree with reporter's 3:15-3:30 at all.

Plenty of time, it takes less than a minute, or minutes, in her state, to get to either the first row of townhouses to the left, or right by the NW steps of 10th and C by 3:38 after supposedly CR passed out. trying to remember if there are steps on the back west side or a ramp to get to the arcade level?
IMO, if something went wrong, west side would be the side not on camera,
not the east side, which JR is pointing us to.

 

[AbbeyR]

Thinking of Charlene Spierer today. I admire the strength, determination and grace that she has shown in the fight to find answers and justice for Lauren, and I hope she's surrounded by love and warm memories this Mother's Day. :heart:

TIPS 812.339.4477 FIND LAUREN PO Box 1226 Bloomington, IN 47402 http://findlauren.com helpfindlauren@gmail.com @NewsOnLaurenS

 

[Ixchel13]

ZC was friends with all three of them. I didn't read the article that way, but even so, what is your point? Genuinely asking. It doesn't appear to detract from CR introducing LS as a girl he had just met.

I didn't get a chance to answer this, got a time out for not posting a link. I clicked on your link to Zoe's story, and the story was no longer there, as you pointed out. So how could you read the article? genuinely asking, because the only thing left on that link is just the sentence you posted, and it was the slug for the article. Slug--editor speak for lead in.

Anyway, iirc, and if someone has the link saved, please post it, most of her sympathy was for JR, whom she even described as pouring his heart out and crying to her about letting Lauren leave.
My point is, and JMO only, to talk about that article and not mention what she said about JR is to
miss the propaganda she may have been spreading.

That was my point, and over a year later, she comes out in the news with this?
IDK, she just sounds phony as all get out, that's all.

 

[Vidocq]

Vidocq,

If the witness was wrong about the time, how would that impact/change your theory?

As a local, what are the rumors that have stuck around that seem the most plausible to you? What is your perception of the crime in the area she was supposedly last seen? Were you in Bloomington at the time? If so, what are your thoughts on her walking barefoot through the area (specifically, would it be painful in your opinion)?

For me, the witness being correct about the time is absolutely crucial to my theory. If you think she was an hour off, then, it seems to me, we're back where we started. But I tend to believe she has the time right.

I was living in Bloomington at the time, and have been since. I remember walking down the sidewalk, I think it was Saturday morning, when I saw the first Missing poster, on a post. I read it and thought, "She went missing Friday morning? That was yesterday. They got these posters out really fast." I don't know if that was a valid thought, but that happened to be my first thought about this whole case.

I think of Bloomington as pretty much crime free, except for certain areas. But the area Spierer was walking in, close to the heart of downtown, I wouldn't think of as dangerous for a woman to walk in, at any hour. Smallwood is directly adjacent (across 8th Street) to the Justice Building, where the county jail and the headquarters of the Sheriff's Office is. And right west of there is City Hall. In fact, I've noticed that the coroner's office is a stone's throw from Tenth & College, Tenth & College, according to my theory, being where the body would have been taken from. So, I find that to be ironic: a body disappears right next to the coroner's office. (Hell, according to Google, there's an FBI branch office just west on 7th St. from this same general area.) I don't know if all that proves anything, but I think it was/is a safe area.

I wouldn't think the barefoot thing would be much of a challenge either: everything seems to be well-paved around there. Except for the gravel lot. Anyway, it sounds like she was carried a lot.

 

[Vidocq]

A note on bar closing times: it's been a few years since I was drinking (but I drank like a fish in Bloomington for about a decade before that). Now that I think about it, last call is 2:45, closing is 3, and they kick you out at 3:30. So, that would be in line with a bar manager leaving at 3:30, walking a few blocks, and seeing something at 3:38.

 

[AbbeyR]

The Private Investigators do not say the bar manager was leaving work:

And that's where we have a female witness who was leaving, uh, visiting a boy.

(from the transcript posted above)

LE hasn't told us much, but they have specifically discounted the 3:38 time based on video surveillance and said this encounter happened up to an hour earlier. So for me at least, it's hard to get around that. It seems illogical to me to imagine a theory that revolves around suspending the few facts that have been reported by the private investigators and LE. JMO

 

[Vidocq]

The Private Investigators do not say the bar manager was leaving work:

Then I take that to be a different witness. Gatto's witness was coming from work:

" 'She was completely out of it,' the witness told TonyGatto.com, 'I had just come off work so I was totally sober. The guy was like, can I take you home, and she couldn’t even answer.' "

And Gatto's witness was an hour later.

http://tonygatto.com/2011/06/16/new...n-spierer-mystery-encounter-with-unknown-man/

Leaving the alley at 2:51 is supposed to be the last time she's on video. But the PIs seem to have a detailed account of her visiting Tenth and College, after coming out of the alley, which must be based on witness accounts, if she's not on camera after the alley. Does that contradict the idea that cameras at Tenth & College were working (besides those in the alley)? In that case, we shouldn't expect her to be on camera at 3:38, getting taking from College Ave, if she wasn't on camera the first time, entering Tenth and College, after leaving the alley. Right?

 

[AbbeyR]

It's not a different witness though. Gatto himself confirmed this (this quote was posted a few times in this thread), and the encounter they describe is the same scene.

One of the problems with Gatto's blog is he published information without verifying it (this was his admitted approach - he was interested in 'breaking news'). Look at the other posts on his blog -just about all of the info that he himself reported (as opposed to just summarizing other news articles) turned out to be incorrect. I suspect this is because he did not talk to people directly, and received a lot of his info from unconfirmed and/or anonymous sources online. Unfortunately, although he talked about these posts here later and questioned some of the things he had written, he did not go back to the blog and revise or make corrections. So, I find the accounts written by the private investigators, LE and the information that has been reported on in MSM to be more reliable. To give Gatto credit, he was also posting at the very beginning only when there was very little information out there, and he is not an investigator. Since then there has been a lot more information revealed.

 

[Vidocq]

Well, if it was the same witness, then I would say that the PIs are putting it in the wrong place time-wise. I believe all sources agree, at least, that the bar manager *claimed* it was 3:38.

One thing that would support this: CR and Lauren, according to the timeline, only had 6 minutes to get from SW to the 10th street alley. Considering it took them 3 minutes just to get through the alley itself, I'd say 6 minutes to get to the alley doesn't leave them any time to sit around on steps.

And what about my point about Lauren and CR visiting Tenth & College after the alley? Doesn't that prove that cameras inside Tenth & College weren't working, if that visit isn't on tape?

 

[AbbeyR]

IIRC, The only source that reported the 3:38 time, was Gatto. LE commented on this report, and also said the time was wrong, so it's not just the private investigators. (They also confirm they interviewed this witness)

Didn't CR and Lauren also return through the alley - where she was on the ground and dropped her keys and ID? According to the timeline this happened after the witness encounter at 10th and College, and it sounds like this is also on video?

 

[Vidocq]

In the transcript SC, the reporter, says, after they leave Tenth & College,

"She has another seat. She sits down for about a minute. But at that point she – she leaves her keys – she drops her keys and an ID card and Corey helped her up the street to his apartment."

I don't know if that's based on a witness, or just extrapolated from the fact that her keys were found around there, but it sounds to me like this is all post-last-alley-footage, at 2:51. Again, there just wasn't time for all of this to happen before 2:51, since they left SW at 2:42, and they entered the alley at 2:48, I believe.

 

[AbbeyR]

Well again, I think the problem here is that it's not actually clear what or how much is caught on video. They have not clearly said what is or is not on video, and a lot of the information from the updated timeline came out after those very early statements from LE. However, since they describe her sitting down for about a minute, this must come either from video or from the witness.

What has been reported concretely is that LE has stated that the time reported by Gatto (3:38) is wrong, based on video surveillance, and that this happened closer to an hour earlier, and that the 'mystery man' seen by the witness has been identified by the Private investigators as Corey Rossman.

The Lohud timeline has the stairs incident to arriving at 5 N @ 2:42 am to about 3 am

2:42 to about 3 a.m.
While sitting on the stairs, Spierer falls back and hits her head. In an alley, she then falls on her face and Rossman helps her up. They then knock on an apartment door of four friends but no one answers. Rossman carries her down the stairs. They continue on to his home at 5 North Townhomes. She drops her keys and an ID on the way

http://archive.lohud.com/flash/spierer/index.html

This seems to me to coincide with the statements from LE (transcribed in Bessie's post) about the last video recording of activity in the alley shortly before 3 am, since that's where she is last reported being seen and where she dropped her keys and ID card.