Truer words were never spoken. And I would add many of these discrepancies might only be discrepancies precisely because we lack key parts of the whole story. Parts that LE and PI's have had access to and not shared. Good post Ixchel13.
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33
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Truer words were never spoken. And I would add many of these discrepancies might only be discrepancies precisely because we lack key parts of the whole story. Parts that LE and PI's have had access to and not shared. Good post Ixchel13.
Considering every single report of Lauren has described her as severely intoxicated to 'incapacitated', and she couldn't even walk on her own or speak coherently - the better question is what reason did CR have to pick her up and carry her back to his apartment?
Exactly.
I believe it was actually confirmed by the PI's that the bar manager saw this encounter with Lauren and Corey a few minutes later - They describe this in detail in the LoHud timeline. What was discredited, was Gatto's claim that this happened at 3:38. (Sorry, I do think you are misunderstanding the quote from Qualters. But we've been over this before
I.e., in line with the timeline from the private investigators.
(The quote from Qualters is here: http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/22/news.qp-4391232.sto)
Anyway, my point was really that the fact that two unrelated groups of witnesses tried to intervene out of concern for Lauren, both describing virtually an identical scene and response from Corey, adds weight to the claims from the witnesses at Smallwood. In both cases, they were concerned with her condition and what was going on, and both times Corey ignored them and they didn't take further action.
I agree. I'm not sure ZO would have known LS well enough to know that CR wasn't taking her to her apartment though, especially if she was truly "nonresponsive." Regardless, I agree that there might be more than meets the eye, but it could simply be that CR and ZO have a history.
I agree with this too - I'm not sure how well LS could have consented to anything if the descriptions of her in the media and lawsuit are taken seriously. The lawsuit alleges that Spierer was observed as "incoherent and nonresponsive." If nonresponsive means what I interpret it to mean - she wasn't talking, either to let them know she actually was home, she was just stopping by, she wanted to go to ZC's, she wanted to go to JW's, she needed to find her phone, etc. etc.
IIRC, she didn't speak to anyone who asked if she was okay. CR spoke for her. He assisted her walking. He slung her across his back. Did he also use her keycard to get into 5N?
The only people stating she was speaking, even if they admit it was slurred speech, are POIs who have reason to want people to believe she left of her own accord.
IMO, the report that she didn't put up her hands to shield herself when she fell en route to 5N would strongly suggest that she couldn't have consented. If this report is true, she wouldn't have been able to defend herself, regardless of whether her voice was heard.
I'm not saying she didn't want to accompany CR somewhere that night, but there could have come a point where that changed. IMO, it's possible she wouldn't have left SW with him if the confrontation hadn't occurred. But regardless, once he was carrying her along, she was in his control.
Ixchel13
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I do think CR is protecting someone as well as himself with the amnesia.
His amnesia starts fifteen minutes or so before being punched and then til the next morning. So that puts him at Kilroys, just leaving Kilroys with LS.
I wonder if they were followed from Kilroys? So he doesn't remember leaving Kilroy's or walking to Smallwood with Lauren or anything that followed.
so, DR had already returned to SW at least an hour before Lauren and CR left for Kilroys.he could have told several people that Lauren was up there with CR. JW? frat bro of JW? GF of frat bro of JW's ?
I do agree that MB could have interrupted CR trying to take advantage of Lauren. or vice versa.
If he was ordering LS drinks at Kilroy's and that's when she started falling apart, he may have thought it best to not remember it, given that she may have succumbed to a combination of some drug and alcohol. He also would be in a position to know if she took something illegal at JR's (and maybe who provided it).
IMO, it would have been more relevant had DR told JW that CR and LS left together for Kilroy's ... but he wouldn't have known that at the time, having left so early.
The story about MB thinking there was a burglar confuses and alarms me. I suppose that LS could have fallen again in the apartment, knocking something over, but I agree it's suspicious.
Mahouston69
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Maybe the door was left hanging wide open and/or clothing, items dropped on the ground or doorway?
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Ixchel13
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I believe it was actually confirmed by the PI's that the bar manager saw this encounter with Lauren and Corey a few minutes later - They describe this in detail in the LoHud timeline. What was discredited, was Gatto's claim that this happened at 3:38. (Sorry, I do think you are misunderstanding the quote from Qualters. But we've been over this before
I.e., in line with the timeline from the private investigators.
(The quote from Qualters is here: http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/22/news.qp-4391232.sto)
Anyway, my point was really that the fact that two unrelated groups of witnesses tried to intervene out of concern for Lauren, both describing virtually an identical scene and response from Corey, adds weight to the claims from the witnesses at Smallwood. In both cases, they were concerned with her condition and what was going on, and both times Corey ignored them and they didn't take further action.
“I can’t say that she didn’t see Lauren,” Qualters continued. “It does not appear that she saw Lauren at the time that was reported by other sources.”
AbbeyR, I don't think you realize it, but we agree on this. This witness did not see Lauren with Corey trying to get in Zoe's apt., and then CR picking her up and carrying her, at 3:38.
She saw her another time, not exactly like the first time at all, at 3:38,IMO.
We don't know how many witnesses there were that night, and to what.
See, you want to smash the two incidents together. IOW, if nothing matches, not the time or the description of the person carrying her, you still want it to be the same incident. But here is Qualters, not saying the witness got the time wrong, nor didn't see Lauren, but that she didn't see her at the time reported by other sources.
You are reading into his words just like I am, and no wonder, the ambiguous nature of his statement lends itself to such. For your needs, it discredits the witness. For mine, it tells us she could have seen Lauren a different time. Since the witness is adamant, she said something like she was positive it was 3:38 because she saw the big clock. And her description of the mystery man does not match CR's description, at all.
CR had taken Lauren back to her apt, was on her floor, and was attacked. Some think the attack was justified. Would Lauren be alive if the attack never happened? Sorry to ask such a
question but I think the answer would be yes. In the "witnesses" of the attacks own words, CR
was attacked because he was being inappropriate with Lauren, not because they wanted to save or help Lauren, because they didn't. You keep bringing up that he picked her up and carried her out. So first, these "heroes" and "morally offended" people attack Lauren's "aggressor" because he's being aggressive, then let the "aggressor" pick her up and carry her out with no ado?
Look at it this way--they were showing him the price he would pay for dating JW's girl. And,
they were letting him, forcing him back outside where they could get at him (her too?),
after all, if he got inside her apt they wouldn't be able to keep stalking him.
But then, he gets a surprise mulligan. If he claims amnesia, he is going to be able to plead amnesia for the last part of the story where she goes missing, where he could've played a part therein, as long as that amnesia covers the whole schmear, including leaving Kilroys, who may have been following, what may have been said, what further threats made, before, during, and after the altercation, and who was at the altercation and why.
come on now. what's wrong with this picture?
@Ixchel.
It's really not that ambiguous, since this information was later confirmed by the private investigators, who describe the same encounter between Corey and Lauren at 10th and College, based on an interview with the same witness. So for me (with all due respect) there's no point in rehashing a debate over information that has been since clarified and reported in MSM.
It's really not that ambiguous, since this information was later confirmed by the private investigators, who describe the same encounter between Corey and Lauren at 10th and College, based on an interview with the same witness. So for me (with all due respect) there's no point in rehashing a debate over information that has been since clarified and reported in MSM.
Yes, this story bothers me a lot. It's hard to make sense of why MB would have thought there was a burglar - The fact that he thought this when he returned to the house after Corey and Lauren suggests that something was alarming, whether there were things out of place (like a door open, etc. as suggested above), or he heard something that sounded like a struggle, or... ?
Even more disturbing to me though is why and how MB's story changed. If this was the case, why for the first year Lauren was missing, did he imply that he was home all night writing papers and put Corey to bed? This was pretty clearly stated by his lawyer to the media and also by (the person claiming to be) MB's mom who wrote in defense of MB that his computer history would be his alibi since he was writing papers at home all night (Paraphrasing comments from IDS - they are quoted in an earlier thread)
It seems like one obvious reason for these statements was that MB was providing an alibi for CR, since CR's lawyer was claiming he had 'amnesia'. MB's story suggested that Lauren and Corey were never even alone together, CR being 'tucked in' by his roommate, while Lauren visits downstairs, before heading off to JR's.
So if this wasn't true, and MB wasn't even home when Corey and Lauren got there, and CR can't remember anything - what happened between Corey and Lauren? Why did CR and MB feel the need to mislead others about CR and LS being alone and what happened when they got home? What did MB see/ hear that was cause for alarm? Did he contact anyone first , tell JR that something was up or call for help? How did this information come to light?
The simple explanation, albeit a guess, would the that CR was supposed to be elsewhere (possibly at LS' apartment) and so there shouldn't have been anyone in the apartment at that time. Upon MB's return it should've been as MB left it as far as the door (locked, unlocked, open, closed...), the lights (certain lights on or off), the TV/radio/stereo in whatever state he left it, and no unexpected noise/voices at all since it should've been empty.
Not sure why there has to be an assumption that there had to be a struggle or some other major disturbance to cause him to think a burglar is in the house.
Not sure why there has to be an assumption that there had to be a struggle or some other major disturbance to cause him to think a burglar is in the house.
Ixchel13
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Abby, do you have a link with the PIs interviewing the witness? I'd love to see that, and not a link where the PIs are paraphrasing an interview from LoHud, etc, but an actual interview with the PIs talking to the witness.
I have read stories with the PIs describing what they saw on video. And, I've read the links where people are saying the encounter is on tape and not at
3:38.
The bar witness does not describe Lauren and Corey trying to get in ZC's apt, the way the PIs do. The bar witness mainly focuses on Lauren smacking her head so hard it was audible. The PIs don't describe this.
Because it's not on video. But the PIs do describe them sitting on the steps.
Repeating what someone has told them, or describing an event on camera, does not constitute an interview. Qualters said he hasn't interviewed this witness, but the PIs have?
Ixchel13
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I totally agree with you wanting to stop disagreeing about this, as Bessie points out, you don't have to respond to a post you don't agree with, especially if you already have. just scroll on.
But since you always ask me for links, I would like the link with the PIs interviewing the bar witness, because iirc, they didn't.
The head smack is not on video. Neither is the bartenders siting of Lauren and a man at 3:38.
Lauren and Corey are supposedly on a video out in front of 10th and College. But the head smack is not on that video. They are seen trying to get in ZC's apt, or is that hearsay by the PIs as well? because you can't walk up that alley and knock on a door the way they describe it. I've said that many times. Sounds like they are paraphrasing or repeating what someone told them. The incident in front of 10th and College is not as documented as we think. The crucial thing, Lauren possibly fatally injuring her head, is not on tape, but it should be, because she is described by the witness as sitting on the steps and then
coming down hard on the cement. so not just the right time is missing from this incident,
but also the crucial injury to Lauren, which leads me to believe there was another incident, shortly after, at 10th and C and that is when Lauren hit her head, and is a major part of the coverup, when everything started spiralling downwards. JMO
The PIs describe CR on video sitting on the steps. If Lauren was on the steps and hit her head during this time, she would be on video. This isn't a case of, "why isn't it on video?" because this incident IS on video, but not the head smack.
IMO, she doubled back down to 10th and College, tried to get in again and
during this time, smacked her head and was carried back up in the direction of 5N and a coverup ensued. CR is given a free pass out of the mishap by simply saying he doesn't remember a thing, thus allowing the head smack to become part of the narrative on the way up to his apt instead of after. Another question is, do we believe CR really passed out?
The other 5N POIs allowing him this out could mean either he did pass out, or, they don't want him "remembering" anything or anybody after he and Lauren started to leave Kilroy's.
Just wanted to add, if Lauren did double back down to 10th and C, she probably wasn't alone,
someone from 5N, even a visiting guest, might have went back down with her, thus the JR involvement and blame taking.
I don't think anyone is saying there had to be a struggle or some major disturbance. It could very well be that it wasn't as MB left it or that MB is just overly paranoid because it has happened to him before.
It's also possible to think that MB's first assumption should have been to guess it was CR since MB knew CR was around. MB had already seen LS & CR together earlier in the night and CR had made it clear he was interested in LS, so even seeing 2 unknown figures shouldn't have necessarily alarmed him.
Even if there was a disturbance, it doesn't necessarily have to be sinister - they were both intoxicated so they weren't going to be their most graceful. On the other hand, it might have been sinister, especially if the descriptions of LS are taken seriously and perhaps even more so when take you into account Abbey's post listing out the "red flags."
IMO, his statement is definitely worthy of questioning, although I agree, it might be totally innocent.
It's the kind of statement that we'd certainly like to hear his explanation for, but since that ability escapes us, and since it could easily have an innocent explanation, it's a point with little value as it stands now. IOW, nobody should draw any conlusions from it one way or the other. It doesn't confirm anything as it stands. It's way too open-ended for that. It's another area where 'what we don't know' could make all the difference in the world.
Another puzzle to the mystery, IMO, is the neighbor woman whom MB allegedly told something totally different to, per the "Indianapolis Monthly" article:
"Beth’s attorney, Ron Chapman (who also represents Rohn), tells IM that Beth, an IU student, stayed in all night to work on papers due that day. Chapman also confirms that Rossman was with Spierer when she came to the apartment, and that Beth helped Rossman into bed. Valerie Sokolova, a neighbor, tells IM that Beth has said he went upstairs and, when he returned, Spierer was gone. 'That was the last time Mike and Corey saw her,' says Sokolova."
What he told Sokolova really makes me wonder about his motivation—and if he got caught up in his own lie. It would be useful to know when he told her this, i.e., if it was after JR told LE that MB called and then brought LS over. I suppose he could also just be a pathological liar. What's one to think? Her leaving while he's upstairs and him walking her to JR's are definitely contradictory.
Unless ... she did leave and someone (CR? CR and MB? JR?) went after her and brought her back. Could she have been at 5N twice that morning? And that's where the mystery man/timing discrepancy comes in? I can't exactly see this, either, but why of why would MB tell that to VS, unless to create an alibi that fell apart when JR said something that differed.
My apologies if someone has addressed this recently ... I do feel it's been brought up. Time is starting to wear me down! PS: Just typing this reaffirms to me that MB is essential to the night's story, one way or the other.
Snipped by me.
I agree. In the beginning, I thought perhaps he was most likely to crack because he was the guy at home just doing his paper while everyone else was out partying. However, it appears his story has changed the most and each time it seems like he played a bigger role in the last known moments of LS, as told by the POIs. It's made me seriously reconsider whether MB is truly going to be the easiest one to crack, if they are involved.
I've wondered the same things... there are so many contradictions in MB's stories, almost every statement raises serious questions.
The PIs implied that the guys at 5 N didn't have their stories straight and that there were many discrepancies. I think it's possible there were contradictions in the accounts in the first hours/ days after Lauren went missing, particularly because of what seems like a conscientious effort to distance themselves from each other.
I hope that the Spierers can get some more information that will help them make sense of these stories and what happened to Lauren.
I can't believe it's been almost three years.
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