So who was the boy she was 'out with'? There were several boys but was one, in particular, a romantic interest (the one she was flirting with)? I am going to assume it was CR??? So she is in her building with CR when he gets punched in the face by a friend of her boyfriend. Does that friend call or text the boyfriend and tell him that his girl is hanging with CR?
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34
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CR didn't get punched in the face because he was hanging out with someone's girlfriend. ZO (who punched him) and JW were not friends. He was punched because ZO (along with others) saw him dragging a girl around who was intoxicated to the point of being incapacitated, and told him he should bring her home. CR told them off, and ZO punched him.
She was out with CR. They had been flirting since the previous weekend, people in that group were aware of it, and CR had been open to people about how he wanted to get with LS. Maybe Lauren and JW broke up. Maybe they were having trouble in their relationship. Maybe she just couldn't control herself, or maybe JW cheated on her. It's not for anyone to judge, but it doesn't help matters at all to obfuscate the facts. LS and JW were supposedly in a relationship, but she was with another guy that night, highly highly likely another romantic interest.
That makes JW statistically much more likely to have been involved. It also makes the whole presentation of their relationship in the media ... fishy. Were people trying to protect LS's image? Perhaps her parents? JW and his family trying to cover up possible motive? In the days and weeks after Lauren disappeared, why was there some concerted effort to make it seem like the two of them were living happily ever after? Even someone with a low IQ could see what was going on.
I recall that some fishy posts were deleted from JW's Facebook page soon after LS went missing. One was a quote from the movie Major Payne about an "urge to kill." I think there was an earlier one about "back in the relationship" but I am not sure. I am not sure this source would be OK by Websleuths rules anyway.
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One more thing about JW, his actions right after Lauren disappeared were erratic and inconsistent. Looking for her practically from the crack of dawn and tracking down her phone and calling 911 ... to calling his family (did he call Lauren's?) ... to bringing his dad along to confront CR ... all of that comes across as a guy looking for his gf and still in love with her. But then he does a 180 and leaves town, changes his name on social media, and tries to disappear while doing nothing to help the search efforts directly or indirectly? Does not add up.
I've always thought that JW knows more than he's let on about LS' disappearance, whether he was directly involved or not. There was also reportedly edly a quote from his brother that suggested that he knew LS was gone forever pretty early on. That, too, struck me as strange … why wouldn't he hold out some hope? IMO, if he knows anything at all about what really went down that night, he needs to share asap (as in yesterday).
I don't think any of that has actually been established as a fact. Merely an interpretation. And it still leaves the question wide open: If they were so concerned about her to punch the guy she was with, then why did they let her leave with him? And part B: Do nothing else?
And there's a second question: If they were so concerned that he should take her home, how did they know that wasn't what he was doing? Afterall, they had just arrived in her apartment building after leaving Kilroy's according the the reports we've all read. Why insert themselves into the situation at all? Why assume, or with what knowledge, that he isn't seeing her home? Unless they actually do have some prior connections to one or both parties and that there's more to the story.
The reason there's not much to look at is because he seems to have cooperated the least of all and went much more silent than anyone else in the immediate circle. Some of that might be because he didn't receive the media scrutiny of 5N (or from the parents), but that doesn't mean he should've gotten (or get) that type of pass.
But it does point to why saying nothing at all is what lawyers tell their clients to do- The speculation gets attached to wherever the most noise comes from.
Most discussion about JW always gets quickly shifted back to 5N.
I think there are a few people who would disagree that JW has received much attention. And I'm also not sure his actions, texts, his parents, everything has been thoroughly examined. Seems like every time his name comes up, people want to redirect attention back to 5N.
Example:
Hmm...that thing JW did was strange. BUT OMG ... let's get back to 5N.
I don't mean just posters on here either. I mean LE, investigators, friends and family, a lot of people seem to have that mindset. I'd suggest it might help to examine JW's potential involvement without shading it because one thinks someone else is more likely to be guilty. Just take an objective view of everything as though there were no other POI's to consider.
THE CASE AGAINST JW
Point #1
First, he has no alibi for the night in question. This of course does not make him guilty, but it does not allow for him to be ruled out, either.
Point #2
Second, motive. He had posted something about "an urge to kill" in the days or weeks before Lauren disappeared. She started hanging out with and flirting with CR around that time. Are the two events related? Seems very possible. Jealous lover / ex-lover is the most common motive of them all.
Point #3
Third, we arrive at the night in question. JW says he was watching a basketball game and then stayed at home all night. His dad *clumsily* tries to corroborate his son's whereabouts, but mentions something about a Knick's game. The problem is that the Knick's season had been over for more than a month. Meanwhile, Lauren was out with another guy that night. What was the reason she suddenly became romantically interested in CR? Had her and JW broken up? Were they having problems, perhaps one of those long-term on-again-off-again relationships? Maybe she just couldn't help herself? Maybe the crowd they ran with were so hedonistic that basically, anything goes? Or maybe JW cheated on her, and she just wanted revenge? Again it's not for anyone to judge, but however sordid personal details are during an investigation is irrelevant, it's important to get the unfiltered facts. Nobody deserves to be killed or left to die no matter what was going on.
Point #4
Fourth, what did JW know about Lauren and CR being together? Did he not know at all, and only found out the day she disappeared? Did he know and didn't care? Did he know and he was fuming raging jealously mad? It seems very unlikely to me that he did not know. How can I be sure of this? Because an inattentive boyfriend would not call Lauren the next day, find out she left her phone at the bar, and then immediately run around town looking for her. Those are the actions of someone who is either legitimately concerned; or possessive and controlling; or acting.
But not inattentive ... no way. An inattentive boyfriend who had no clue what Lauren was up to sometimes would have usually waited for her to call him first, and only become concerned after an overly long time had passed without hearing from her. If an inattentive boyfriend did happen to call her first, he certainly would not have inconvenienced himself to go looking for her right away, again unless an overly long time had passed and he had no other choice.
Given his actions the next day, whether sincere or acted, there's absolutely no chance that JW didn't know what Lauren was up to all the time in my opinion. No chance. He knew exactly who she was with that night, exactly what their relationship to her was, etc. Any suggestion JW made otherwise would be immediately flagged as a lie in my book.
Point #5
Fifth, JW reported her missing. A lot of people have expressed the opinion that he was awfully quick to jump to that conclusion. It would be helpful if someone could post exactly everything he did searching for her before he called police. Were his actions reasonable and consistent with someone who was surprised or angry and concerned? Why do I underline those words? Well, as I mentioned there's no chance in my opinion that JW didn't know who Lauren was with the previous night. If he was fine with it, and didn't expect anything to be out of the ordinary, then his behavior the next day (and his actions) should have been very, very consistent with someone who was surprised, and then expressing growing concern (not immediate concern). On the other hand, if he had reason to not approve of Lauren and CR being together, then his behavior and actions should still have expressed some degree of initial surprise or disbelief, but anger and concern would have been much quicker to follow.
(Think of him saying "I knew it! I knew something bad would happen if she went with that guy!")
In summary, were his actions and demeanor on the following day consistent with his appraisal of the situation? If there are inconsistencies, JW would come further under the microscope.
Point #6
Sixth, he called his father and told him about Lauren being missing. Did he call the Spierers first? Did he call them ever? It would be REALLY weird in my opinion for him to call his own family before calling Lauren's. I remember a situation in college when my girlfriend had drank something or taken something before I picked her up one night, and she became very sick that night at my room. I was really close to taking her to the hospital and calling HER parents, not mine. The thought wouldn't have even crossed my mind. Maybe he did call Lauren's parents first, but if he didn't that would be really fishy to me.
Point #7
Seventh, JW's father immediately joined him in Bloomington. How soon did he arrive? Did he arrive before Lauren's parents, and how does that happen? Did JW only call his father and not call them (fishy), or did AW have his own plane and Lauren's parents had to make flight arrangements?
In any case, missing person's cases are often resolved in a day, without anything bad happening. Let's imagine AW receiving a phone call from his son, that Lauren was missing. It would be pretty normal for AW to express concern, ask his son to keep him informed, and within x amount of time, if Lauren still hadn't turned up, maybe fly out to Indiana. Any other reaction would be ridiculous, right? How stupid would it be for AW to drop work, fly out to Indiana, and upon landing get a call from his son that Lauren was over at a friend's with a hangover, or with another guy, or just out shopping?
How soon was too soon for AW to leave for Bloomington, and did he go there "too soon" or not?
Point #8
Eighth, JW and his father AW confronted CR at 5N, and some kind of altercation or near-altercation ensued. To me, this always seemed way too dramatic and over the top, but let's assume for a minute that it was all genuine, that JW believed CR was responsible, he was trying to get answers, etc. If that were the case, then here you have a young man trying desperately to find his girlfriend who has gone missing ... but then just a short time later he gives up and leaves town. What?
Those actions are inconsistent and to me, makes it seem much more likely that he was once again acting, directing his rage and jealously at CR, and trying to pin the blame on him.
Point #9
Ninth, as I mentioned JW left town and quickly gave up and made no further efforts to help find Lauren. I get it that he was told not to participate in the searches, but that's still not the actions of a concerned boyfriend. He then clammed up to investigators, changed his name on social media, and basically tried to disassociate himself from everything. Are those the actions of a concerned boyfriend? Or does it not make his "concerned" actions of that first day seem all the more an act?
Point #10
Finally, as Lauren's disappearance persisted, what has come from JW and his family? They claim he passed a privately administered lie detector test, but he refuses to take one from the actual investigators, because his mom thinks they're "not very adept at anything except giving kids drinking tickets...I don't trust them, period." Isn't that like offering to do a take-home test, but not willing to take one in class?
His parents also called the Spierers "liars". Their daughter is missing and presumed dead. What kind of people say such things? Even if you don't like someone, or think they are in the wrong, given the situation, you would think a more pc statement would have been in order.
Oh but that's right. JW and his family didn't want to make a pc statement, they wanted to slander Lauren and her family so that the public and media might lose interest in her story.
Seems pretty classy. Seems like JW has some great parents who undoubtedly raised him well and therefore he could never have done something awful like harm another person.
Ven,
I think you can add to your questions/concerns:
How did JW know LS hadn't actually been home to her apartment and left already? Particularly when he learned the phone was simply lost at a bar (a common place to lose cell phones). At that point he had a reason for her inability to return any texts, calls, or answer the phone. Yet, somehow, he knew this was serious and needed to be escalated to the point of contacting police?
I'd think finding out the phone had been lost at a bar would slow some of the concerns and turn them away from thinking her lost and in trouble to "been home and left" or "stayed somewhere other than home". I could see him becoming concerned she'd stayed with another guy, but that isn't something you involve the police in as a missing person case.
I think you can add to your questions/concerns:
How did JW know LS hadn't actually been home to her apartment and left already? Particularly when he learned the phone was simply lost at a bar (a common place to lose cell phones). At that point he had a reason for her inability to return any texts, calls, or answer the phone. Yet, somehow, he knew this was serious and needed to be escalated to the point of contacting police?
I'd think finding out the phone had been lost at a bar would slow some of the concerns and turn them away from thinking her lost and in trouble to "been home and left" or "stayed somewhere other than home". I could see him becoming concerned she'd stayed with another guy, but that isn't something you involve the police in as a missing person case.
VeryVeritas
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A full year and nothing has changed, same circular arguments. Sad.
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Yes akh, by no means was I suggesting that my list was exhaustive. And some of the details of this case I remember, and some I'm a little foggy on, as one might expect after 4 years.
For instance, I don't remember JW's actions after he called Lauren's phone at Kilroy's. Did he go to the bar to get the phone? Go to her room? It's just been too long and I don't pop in here often enough to remember. One thing I do remember, however, is that I had the same reservations as you just expressed back in 2011. Why was JW so eager to assume she was missing? Again, I'd need to see the timeline of his actions to really get a beat on that, but here are some hypotheticals...
1. Let's say JW calls LS and finds out she left her phone at the bar. Most people would just assume she's going to get the phone herself, right? There's no reason to assume anything bad happened, unless of course JW already knew what happened to Lauren.
2. Another innocent explanation is that JW could have been afraid for LS, or been very upset that she was with another guy the previous night, and so he felt the urgent need to touch base with her. Maybe he had some other reason for getting in touch with her right away. In these cases, he would not be deterred by her phone being lost. One would expect him to quickly explore other means for contacting her or otherwise locating her. If he called her room, called her roommate, called her friends ... eventually went down to her room, etc. That would still not be an exhaustive effort to lead one to give up and call the police.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, based on JW's own actions, he HAD to have known who Lauren was with the other night. An innocent man would have made every attempt to see if Lauren was still with that person. He would have contacted CR, or otherwise gone to 5N. Did he? I only remember him going with this father ... that's waaaaaaaay too late in the game. Only a guilty person would not attempt to see if she was still with the man she was with the night before.
I no longer recall where I read this, but I think JW was supposed to be the only one in Lauren's circle who knew about her heart condition. If true, this would explain why he wanted to check her apartment (to see if she was there and unconscious or dead) and to see if she had taken her heart medication. Of course there could be more sinister explanations too., such as removing anything incriminating before calling 911..
Does anyone have the sequence of dates for IU and Ivy Tech at that time? As I recall, IU's spring semester had ended, the summer session had just begun, and Ivy Tech's summer session was to start the following week. Who was enrolled where? LS was to start an Ivy Tech class the on Monday. MB and HT were taking IU classes. Why were the rest of them there?
Skigirl
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It's very sad that she hasn't been found. I don't know why anyone would object to any line of inquiry that could lead to an answer, with the exception of the individual or individual responsible. I could understand why he or they might want discussion to cease.
I don't have the answers to all these questions, but they do raise another question for me, if anyone can help (with Ros' questions and this one): Wasn't JW out early the morning LS disappeared, giving someone a ride to Ivy Tech? I seem to remember something like that. I'll also try to find answers to the questions you've raised here ...
doubtingthomas
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According to this articles timeline:
http://legalpublication.blogspot.com/2011/06/lauren-spierer-disappearance-puzzles.html
7:45 Jesse Wolff apparently gets up and takes a roommate to his8:00 a.m. class.
http://legalpublication.blogspot.com/2011/06/lauren-spierer-disappearance-puzzles.html
7:45 Jesse Wolff apparently gets up and takes a roommate to his8:00 a.m. class.
In my opinion, I don't think JW's knowledge of her heart condition has any impact on this case. It would be pretty unreasonable to believe that someone (like him) would call Lauren every single day and ask her if she took her medicine, or drop everything they are doing to go looking for her "just in case" something happened to her. After she's missing, sure her loved ones will immediately think of the heart condition and become even more worried about her, but does one really think "OMG her heart!" every time she was unavailable for a short time?
My sister had asthma growing up for instance, and sure if she had gone missing and we found her inhaler, it would have concerned everyone. But if I was on the other side of town and called her and couldn't get a hold of her, I would hardly drive over to her house every time she didn't answer just in case she had an asthma attack, if that makes sense.
biscuits222
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Looking at the NBA archives, there was a Dallas Mavericks v Miami Heat game on the evening of June 2nd in Florida:
http://www.nba.com/games/20110602/DALMIA/gameinfo.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_...2.29_Miami_Heat_vs._.28W3.29_Dallas_Mavericks
That is the only NBA game I can find at the relevant time. edit: searching knicks + spierer + mavericks within this site shows the point has been made before about possible mix-ups between Marvericks and Knicks:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...om+knicks+mavericks+spierer&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
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