IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34

[monkey222]

I see that Neal Falls, the monster who was just killed by an escort in W. VA, is being investigated for many many murders. He had a gun permit from IN and lived in Butler. Just saw this on the Jessica Herrienga case (and she was abducted in MI)...Butler is a heck of a lot closer to Bloomington. Can his time in Butler/permit info be sleuthed. Loser, monster.

 

[Ixchel13]

Ven,
I'm just chiming in to say I agree with you that JW doesn't get the scrutiny he deserves IMHO. I've always seen him just as likely as 5N. Especially after nothing seemingly panned out with LE scrutinizing 5N and having that as a 'ground zero' for where anything in the popular narrative of theories involving 5N guys had to have played out. Meanwhile, the BF is the statistically likely candidate in these type of cases. And I've always questioned how quickly he decided she was missing and police involvement was necessary.

Although DM has now inserted himself squarely into the mix as well. From the outside looking in, he cannot be cleared.

BBM: please elaborate.....:thinking:

 

[Ixchel13]

This is often brought up, but no one seems to have anything to add. JW has gotten a lot of attention here, there's just not much to look at. His actions the day Lauren went missing, the texts, his parents etc. have been dissected here a million times.

and probably should continue to be

 

[Ixchel13]

So who was the boy she was 'out with'? There were several boys but was one, in particular, a romantic interest (the one she was flirting with)? I am going to assume it was CR??? So she is in her building with CR when he gets punched in the face by a friend of her boyfriend. Does that friend call or text the boyfriend and tell him that his girl is hanging with CR?

BBM that's what I'm thinking.

 

[Ixchel13]

CR didn't get punched in the face because he was hanging out with someone's girlfriend. ZO (who punched him) and JW were not friends. He was punched because ZO (along with others) saw him dragging a girl around who was intoxicated to the point of being incapacitated, and told him he should bring her home. CR told them off, and ZO punched him.

respectfully, I don't believe that. There's no evidence that ZO was really acting on Lauren's behalf, CR was on tha ground, at that point ZO had every chance to help Lauren, text or walk down the hall and knock on her door for roommates help, get a security guard, etc. So many things he coulda done if he was really concerned for Lauren. There is also no proof that ZO and JW weren't friends!
She was home, and on her floor. Date was knocked out on the floor.
The altercation was the reason Lauren went back out to her death. ZO caused it!
Can we all repeat after me? she was home, she was home, she was home! not in very good shape, but safe until ZO attacked her date..

 

[Ixchel13]

I think there are a few people who would disagree that JW has received much attention. And I'm also not sure his actions, texts, his parents, everything has been thoroughly examined. Seems like every time his name comes up, people want to redirect attention back to 5N.

Example:
Hmm...that thing JW did was strange. BUT OMG ... let's get back to 5N.

I don't mean just posters on here either. I mean LE, investigators, friends and family, a lot of people seem to have that mindset. I'd suggest it might help to examine JW's potential involvement without shading it because one thinks someone else is more likely to be guilty. Just take an objective view of everything as though there were no other POI's to consider.

THE CASE AGAINST JW

Point #1
First, he has no alibi for the night in question. This of course does not make him guilty, but it does not allow for him to be ruled out, either.

Point #2
Second, motive. He had posted something about "an urge to kill" in the days or weeks before Lauren disappeared. She started hanging out with and flirting with CR around that time. Are the two events related? Seems very possible. Jealous lover / ex-lover is the most common motive of them all.

Point #3
Third, we arrive at the night in question. JW says he was watching a basketball game and then stayed at home all night. His dad *clumsily* tries to corroborate his son's whereabouts, but mentions something about a Knick's game. The problem is that the Knick's season had been over for more than a month. Meanwhile, Lauren was out with another guy that night. What was the reason she suddenly became romantically interested in CR? Had her and JW broken up? Were they having problems, perhaps one of those long-term on-again-off-again relationships? Maybe she just couldn't help herself? Maybe the crowd they ran with were so hedonistic that basically, anything goes? Or maybe JW cheated on her, and she just wanted revenge? Again it's not for anyone to judge, but however sordid personal details are during an investigation is irrelevant, it's important to get the unfiltered facts. Nobody deserves to be killed or left to die no matter what was going on.

Point #4
Fourth, what did JW know about Lauren and CR being together? Did he not know at all, and only found out the day she disappeared? Did he know and didn't care? Did he know and he was fuming raging jealously mad? It seems very unlikely to me that he did not know. How can I be sure of this? Because an inattentive boyfriend would not call Lauren the next day, find out she left her phone at the bar, and then immediately run around town looking for her. Those are the actions of someone who is either legitimately concerned; or possessive and controlling; or acting.

But not inattentive ... no way. An inattentive boyfriend who had no clue what Lauren was up to sometimes would have usually waited for her to call him first, and only become concerned after an overly long time had passed without hearing from her. If an inattentive boyfriend did happen to call her first, he certainly would not have inconvenienced himself to go looking for her right away, again unless an overly long time had passed and he had no other choice.

Given his actions the next day, whether sincere or acted, there's absolutely no chance that JW didn't know what Lauren was up to all the time in my opinion. No chance. He knew exactly who she was with that night, exactly what their relationship to her was, etc. Any suggestion JW made otherwise would be immediately flagged as a lie in my book.

Point #5
Fifth, JW reported her missing. A lot of people have expressed the opinion that he was awfully quick to jump to that conclusion. It would be helpful if someone could post exactly everything he did searching for her before he called police. Were his actions reasonable and consistent with someone who was surprised or angry and concerned? Why do I underline those words? Well, as I mentioned there's no chance in my opinion that JW didn't know who Lauren was with the previous night. If he was fine with it, and didn't expect anything to be out of the ordinary, then his behavior the next day (and his actions) should have been very, very consistent with someone who was surprised, and then expressing growing concern (not immediate concern). On the other hand, if he had reason to not approve of Lauren and CR being together, then his behavior and actions should still have expressed some degree of initial surprise or disbelief, but anger and concern would have been much quicker to follow.

(Think of him saying "I knew it! I knew something bad would happen if she went with that guy!")

In summary, were his actions and demeanor on the following day consistent with his appraisal of the situation? If there are inconsistencies, JW would come further under the microscope.

Point #6
Sixth, he called his father and told him about Lauren being missing. Did he call the Spierers first? Did he call them ever? It would be REALLY weird in my opinion for him to call his own family before calling Lauren's. I remember a situation in college when my girlfriend had drank something or taken something before I picked her up one night, and she became very sick that night at my room. I was really close to taking her to the hospital and calling HER parents, not mine. The thought wouldn't have even crossed my mind. Maybe he did call Lauren's parents first, but if he didn't that would be really fishy to me.

Point #7
Seventh, JW's father immediately joined him in Bloomington. How soon did he arrive? Did he arrive before Lauren's parents, and how does that happen? Did JW only call his father and not call them (fishy), or did AW have his own plane and Lauren's parents had to make flight arrangements?

In any case, missing person's cases are often resolved in a day, without anything bad happening. Let's imagine AW receiving a phone call from his son, that Lauren was missing. It would be pretty normal for AW to express concern, ask his son to keep him informed, and within x amount of time, if Lauren still hadn't turned up, maybe fly out to Indiana. Any other reaction would be ridiculous, right? How stupid would it be for AW to drop work, fly out to Indiana, and upon landing get a call from his son that Lauren was over at a friend's with a hangover, or with another guy, or just out shopping?

How soon was too soon for AW to leave for Bloomington, and did he go there "too soon" or not?

Point #8
Eighth, JW and his father AW confronted CR at 5N, and some kind of altercation or near-altercation ensued. To me, this always seemed way too dramatic and over the top, but let's assume for a minute that it was all genuine, that JW believed CR was responsible, he was trying to get answers, etc. If that were the case, then here you have a young man trying desperately to find his girlfriend who has gone missing ... but then just a short time later he gives up and leaves town. What?

Those actions are inconsistent and to me, makes it seem much more likely that he was once again acting, directing his rage and jealously at CR, and trying to pin the blame on him.

Point #9
Ninth, as I mentioned JW left town and quickly gave up and made no further efforts to help find Lauren. I get it that he was told not to participate in the searches, but that's still not the actions of a concerned boyfriend. He then clammed up to investigators, changed his name on social media, and basically tried to disassociate himself from everything. Are those the actions of a concerned boyfriend? Or does it not make his "concerned" actions of that first day seem all the more an act?

Point #10
Finally, as Lauren's disappearance persisted, what has come from JW and his family? They claim he passed a privately administered lie detector test, but he refuses to take one from the actual investigators, because his mom thinks they're "not very adept at anything except giving kids drinking tickets...I don't trust them, period." Isn't that like offering to do a take-home test, but not willing to take one in class?

His parents also called the Spierers "liars". Their daughter is missing and presumed dead. What kind of people say such things? Even if you don't like someone, or think they are in the wrong, given the situation, you would think a more pc statement would have been in order.

Oh but that's right. JW and his family didn't want to make a pc statement, they wanted to slander Lauren and her family so that the public and media might lose interest in her story.

Seems pretty classy. Seems like JW has some great parents who undoubtedly raised him well and therefore he could never have done something awful like harm another person.

Awesome post!!:drumroll:

 

[akh]

BBM: please elaborate.....:thinking:

Until more is known, we now have someone who would fit the profile of a random abductor of college girls acting in that general area. Even one that ties back to Kilroy's.
On the scales of possible to plausible, it now stands (in the public view (who knows what the police now know?)) a little more plausible that there was a random abductor out there.

 

[akh]

Looking at the NBA archives, there was a Dallas Mavericks v Miami Heat game on the evening of June 2nd in Florida:

http://www.nba.com/games/20110602/DALMIA/gameinfo.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_...2.29_Miami_Heat_vs._.28W3.29_Dallas_Mavericks

That is the only NBA game I can find at the relevant time. edit: searching knicks + spierer + mavericks within this site shows the point has been made before about possible mix-ups between Marvericks and Knicks:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...om+knicks+mavericks+spierer&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Yes, it was the playoffs and the Knicks were already eliminated (in fact they probably didn't even make the playoffs that year). But I've always given a little benefit of the doubt on the dad saying "Knicks" just thinking that maybe he didn't follow the NBA and knew his son possibly followed the Knicks and just made a leap to think it was a Knicks game if his son had said he was watching an NBA game.

IOW, it's really the dad's slip, not necessarily the son's slip up with saying "Knicks". If there hadn't been any NBA game on at all, it might be more telling.

 

[Ixchel13]

Until more is known, we now have someone who would fit the profile of a random abductor of college girls acting in that general area. Even one that ties back to Kilroy's.
On the scales of possible to plausible, it now stands (in the public view (who knows what the police now know?)) a little more plausible that there was a random abductor out there.

true. very, very small window of time, 2 or 3
minutes for her to get home, so it would have had to happen just like that
but I can see him acting like a cabbie, and maybe even she had seen him before, like Hannah supposedly had.
and such a local yokel (sorry nice yokels) that he would know how to hide her...except he is super-dumb.
What if DM's stepdad knows ALOT more than he's saying?
Anyway, of course it's possible. if he confessed to killing Lauren, I would believe it.
feel sorry for the POIs? Naw....they chased her back onto the street.

 

[Ixchel13]

Yes, it was the playoffs and the Knicks were already eliminated (in fact they probably didn't even make the playoffs that year). But I've always given a little benefit of the doubt on the dad saying "Knicks" just thinking that maybe he didn't follow the NBA and knew his son possibly followed the Knicks and just made a leap to think it was a Knicks game if his son had said he was watching an NBA game.

IOW, it's really the dad's slip, not necessarily the son's slip up with saying "Knicks". If there hadn't been any NBA game on at all, it might be more telling.

But they're from NY, not really that easy to slip up. New York Knicks. hey that's our team sort of thing. But if someone had just told him to say it, yeah, i could see him botching his lines. Knicks and 'Ricks, sounds similar if you get nervous.

They had the private poly to satisfy themselves, that's telling in itself. But after the poly, they went after the victim with a vengeance. Why? If he's innocent, then, wouldn't they show some compassion for the victim, someone, whether they approved or not, their son supposedly loved? And her grieving parents? Not a single kind word does not sound like parents who think their son is blameless. Maybe they are aware that he was stalking her that night which led to her going out into the street, even if he didn't actually
do anything directly he might be an accessory.

 

[Ven]

respectfully, I don't believe that. There's no evidence that ZO was really acting on Lauren's behalf, CR was on tha ground, at that point ZO had every chance to help Lauren, text or walk down the hall and knock on her door for roommates help, get a security guard, etc. So many things he coulda done if he was really concerned for Lauren. There is also no proof that ZO and JW weren't friends!
She was home, and on her floor. Date was knocked out on the floor.
The altercation was the reason Lauren went back out to her death. ZO caused it!
Can we all repeat after me? she was home, she was home, she was home! not in very good shape, but safe until ZO attacked her date..

Great post. I remember my initial reaction to the ZO confrontation was that he was a friend of JW and attacked CR for his buddy, since Lauren was out with another guy.

My confidence on that wavered after some posters repeatedly suggested that ZO and JW were not friends. Over the years though, I've come under the impression that those posters are more JW supporters than anything, and those same people repeatedly try to turn any discussion about JW back to 5N.

I'd just like to applaud you for your insight as well. If ZO had been trying to help Lauren, and his concern for her was limited to her intoxication and CR's mistreating of her ... then after he floored CR, him and his buddies could have easily led Lauren to her room or otherwise helped her out in some way. Instead, they punched CR and did nothing else. To me that shows that Lauren was with CR of her own volition, and ZO did not approve of them being together and acted out of aggression -- probably because he was friends with JW.

 

[Ven]

Here's an article where ZC, a friend of CR's, states that CR got in a fight with "some of JW's friends at Smallwood":

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/02/missing-student-boyfriend-family-fume/2382909/

It couldn't be any more clear, in my opinion, that JW and Lauren were on the outs, and that Lauren was with a potential new romantic interest (CR). They spent the evening together, and Lauren attempted to bring him back to her residence, but they encountered ZO and crew, who took it upon themselves to deliver a blow (literally) for their friend JW.

That altercation then caused Lauren and CR to head elsewhere -- CR's residence.

The final point is that if ZO were a friend of JW's ... and was acting aggressively enough to physically punch CR for the sake of his friend ... there should be little or no doubt that JW would have been made aware of those developments that very same night. JW even mentioned to Lauren "we'll talk" when their last texting conversation ended. The explanation that JW gave that he "just went to sleep" seems entirely implausible to me. It's much more likely that he would have been in a bad emotional state that night, considering he knew what Lauren was up to.

In short, nothing JW has ever said or claimed stands up to scrutiny. All of his actions and words, when carefully examined under the microscope, reveal inconsistency after inconsistency.

 

[Ixchel13]

Here's an article where ZC, a friend of CR's, states that CR got in a fight with "some of JW's friends at Smallwood":

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/02/missing-student-boyfriend-family-fume/2382909/

It couldn't be any more clear, in my opinion, that JW and Lauren were on the outs, and that Lauren was with a potential new romantic interest (CR). They spent the evening together, and Lauren attempted to bring him back to her residence, but they encountered ZO and crew, who took it upon themselves to deliver a blow (literally) for their friend JW.

That altercation then caused Lauren and CR to head elsewhere -- CR's residence.

The final point is that if ZO were a friend of JW's ... and was acting aggressively enough to physically punch CR for the sake of his friend ... there should be little or no doubt that JW would have been made aware of those developments that very same night. JW even mentioned to Lauren "we'll talk" when their last texting conversation ended. The explanation that JW gave that he "just went to sleep" seems entirely implausible to me. It's much more likely that he would have been in a bad emotional state that night, considering he knew what Lauren was up to.

In short, nothing JW has ever said or claimed stands up to scrutiny. All of his actions and words, when carefully examined under the microscope, reveal inconsistency after inconsistency.

in your link above, snipped:
Nadine Wolff said she and her husband had their son take a polygraph just two weeks after the disappearance, and that it was administered by a retired FBI polygrapher with "irrefutable credentials."

uh, oh. Could this be the retired FBI guy who is reinvestigating the Lauren
Spierer case? who has the "new evidence"?

Also, IMO, ZC could be one of the unnamed POIs. Now that's just speculation, but she does figure into the story, and actually, she has alot to say about the evening. She admits being present at a party and she and underaged Lauren were doing shots. I think, just guessing, she must have been at the party at SW that lauren "left abruptly" w. DR to go to JR's. I am guessing she also probably went up to JRs after Lauren did, then when Lauren and CR left to go to Kilroy's, she probably went home to 10th and College. Because on her way up to CR's after the altercation, Lauren and CR try to contact ZC, who claims she was asleep. But she had 3 other roommates, who would have tried to wake her. And we are to believe none of these people went outside while Lauren was frantically trying to get in? And why was she trying to get in ZC's building and apt?
People say lauren was trying to get in so ZC could help her. The PIs say that on video, after Lauren tries to get in, she and CR make a haphazard trail back up the alley and emerge alive from that alley.
But eyewitness says, Lauren sat on the steps, and then fell backwards and smacked her head, and never regained consciousness. And was picked up and walked up the street with.
What happened outside of 10th and College? Was she there on the way up, and somehow there later? Or, was the witness seeing them remove an unconcious Lauren from 10th and College when she saw her hit her head? Was the witness at the same apt?
yes, ZC knows something, I'm guessing.

 

[akh]

But they're from NY, not really that easy to slip up. New York Knicks. hey that's our team sort of thing. But if someone had just told him to say it, yeah, i could see him botching his lines. Knicks and 'Ricks, sounds similar if you get nervous.

They had the private poly to satisfy themselves, that's telling in itself. But after the poly, they went after the victim with a vengeance. Why? If he's innocent, then, wouldn't they show some compassion for the victim, someone, whether they approved or not, their son supposedly loved? And her grieving parents? Not a single kind word does not sound like parents who think their son is blameless. Maybe they are aware that he was stalking her that night which led to her going out into the street, even if he didn't actually
do anything directly he might be an accessory.

Nobody calls the Mavericks the Ricks. They are Dallas or Mavs but never the Ricks. So it's almost impossible the mistake could come from that scenario.

That said, the NBA isn't as popular as say the NFL. So it's possible his dad only has a passing knowledge of the NBA through the Knicks and he doesn't follow them at all. So if his son said he was watching an NBA game his did could assume it was the Knicks, never knowing their season had already ended or anything else.

The problem here is we're chasing down what his dad said based on memory, and then how a reporter interpreted it (or was it what someone else said the dad said to them and then that was then told to a reporter?) and not what the son for sure said. It's hard to make too much of that when it's pretty easy to understand how his dad mixed it up himself and not the son.

 

[Ixchel13]

Nobody calls the Mavericks the Ricks. They are Dallas or Mavs but never the Ricks. So it's almost impossible the mistake could come from that scenario.

That said, the NBA isn't as popular as say the NFL. So it's possible his dad only has a passing knowledge of the NBA through the Knicks and he doesn't follow them at all. So if his son said he was watching an NBA game his did could assume it was the Knicks, never knowing their season had already ended or anything else.

The problem here is we're chasing down what his dad said based on memory, and then how a reporter interpreted it (or was it what someone else said the dad said to them and then that was then told to a reporter?) and not what the son for sure said. It's hard to make too much of that when it's pretty easy to understand how his dad mixed it up himself and not the son.

as i know nada about football, I was just pointing out that Knicks rhymes with Ricks, not a nickname for the team, lol. I see what you're saying, and don't get me wrong if I point out it's almost an example of how people will
entertain excuses for the Wolffs but not for any other POIs.

Saying the wrong team on either of their parts could also be an example of how upset JW could have been when talking to his father, how upset his father got while talking to him, so upset he felt the need to immediately fly to BTown. But then, he wasn't upset about Lauren being missing, just how it was hurting his son. Makes me wonder if JW told his dad anything that CR might have been saying about what he might have heard about Lauren's disappearance from other parties. And then after that, amnesia sets in.
I wonder just how threatening a multi-millionaire media mogul can be
when someone is calling his son a killer? In AW's words, CR was scared after he talked to him.

Then, they go back to Westchester and have their son polyied. If. as they say (I doubt it!), he passed with flying colors (JW's words), then
after a huge sigh of relief, innocent people might think, "whew! my son is innocent. Now who has hidden poor Lauren?" at that point, they could have at least contacted her parents with a sympathy call, or even a meeting. Let's face it, they all knew all their kids did drugs. All of those
families, of everyone involved, had to know all of their kids did drugs!
I think that is the barbarity of the entire situation--the lack of sympathy calls from the people who could very well be in the Spierers' position, easily.

 

[monkey222]

I know we researched and rehashed on here, but did we figure out when dad arrived in Bloom....was it early Sat am...and when did the 2 go to 5N to inquire re: LS? Thx

 

[Ixchel13]

I know we researched and rehashed on here, but did we figure out when dad arrived in Bloom....was it early Sat am...and when did the 2 go to 5N to inquire re: LS? Thx

I know we researched and rehashed on here, but did we figure out when dad arrived in Bloom....was it early Sat am...and when did the 2 go to 5N to inquire re: LS? Thx

monkey, rehash all you want. we need to. If the dad flew out there not even waiting to hear back, it is gravely important!
We (myself and another WSer) are doing a more private research, research that is not allowed here for good reason, and have found that many of these people involved, some on the sidelines, and some directly, who implied or said directly that they weren't friends with, or said others weren't friends with, are INDEED friends
on SM with POIs and people on witness lists.
I hope that makes sense. You know my ramblings. The fact is, these
people are lying through their teeth about not being friends!
we have suspects that are not on the official radar, and we have them friended on SM by POIs.
So, with this in mind, the idea that any of the POIs were not friends, or at least good friends with friends of friends involved is malarkey.
Especially MB. he is protrayed as a studious outsider when in fact he is linked with both the POIs and Lauren's roommates as a friend. They all knew him, and he ran with their circle. Partied with their circle.
weirdly enough, I was googling one of Lauren's camp photos, and lo and behold, the article ZC was in, or should I say one of the many press releases she gave about Lauren, popped up. Why? Somehow, the search engine connects them, and I don;t think it's just because of her last name.
ZC defends JR, says he couldn't have done it. Does not mention JW.
She was there when all this sprouted up that evening, knew about Lauren going to be with CR, this girl knew what was going on, and then Lauren was trying to get into her apt.
I just feel like they should start at the altercation, why it happened,
why it REALLY happened, and the aftermath is where we will find either Lauren's killer, or the people who drove her back out onto the street to her demise. If she felt it was unsafe to stay in her own apt then those people are to blame, and that means all and everyone involved.

 

[akh]

as i know nada about football, I was just pointing out that Knicks rhymes with Ricks, not a nickname for the team, lol.

We're talking about basketball teams

 

[Ixchel13]

We're talking about basketball teams

lololololol I think somewhere in my brain i knew that, but again,sports:laughing:

 

[biscuits222]

Just learned that another woman, Jennifer Rogers, disappeared. She was last seen at the Shalom Center in Bloomington, Jan 15, 2015. There has been little if any publicity in this case.

I think she may have been located - the NamUs page for Jennifer Rogers has been removed, as well as a Facebook page that talked about her disappearence. This is the thread I started about the case:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...er-Lynn-Rogers-31-Bloomington-15-January-2015