IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34

[akh]

and really, their own, since they will continue to live in the shadow of the "person of interest" label until this crime is solved.

But do they really? Obviously, someplace like here they do, where the case is dwelled upon and discussed. But when you read the comments to the case when it comes up on other news sites these days, I get the feeling the public mostly has moved on. The prevailing comments seem to either be that LE looked at these guys and found nothing (or even cleared them) or else they would be in trouble, or else those that blame LS for whatever happened.

Whatever their involvement, I'm sure it probably weighs on them (assuming they are normal human beings mentally) whether they are directly responsible or just feel they could've done something differently and nothing happened to her, but I don't get the feeling there is a great pressure coming from the public at large around them. I don't think they are living with the pressures that an OJ Simpson felt if that is what you believe.

 

[Ixchel13]

But do they really? Obviously, someplace like here they do, where the case is dwelled upon and discussed. But when you read the comments to the case when it comes up on other news sites these days, I get the feeling the public mostly has moved on. The prevailing comments seem to either be that LE looked at these guys and found nothing (or even cleared them) or else they would be in trouble, or else those that blame LS for whatever happened.

Whatever their involvement, I'm sure it probably weighs on them (assuming they are normal human beings mentally) whether they are directly responsible or just feel they could've done something differently and nothing happened to her, but I don't get the feeling there is a great pressure coming from the public at large around them. I don't think they are living with the pressures that an OJ Simpson felt if that is what you believe.

They have alot of money, or else every time they looked for a job, tried to rent or even buy in an area where they do check references such as a condo in a nice building, etc, they would possibly be turned down as soon as someone googles their name.

Wherever they settle, eventually, the gossip will follow them, be it much later when they have kids, etc.

And then someday, what happened to Michael Skakel might happen to them. The Martha Moxley case was ice cold, practically buried in a glacier, when finally, someone he went to school with talked.

And yet, if DM is found guilty, it wouldn't surprise me.

Has anybody seen Broadchurch? Although it involved 2 murdered girls, the plot , and the mechanics of the murders
reminds me of the 5N POIs incl. JW though.

***SPOILER WARNING****
Plot:

The dad in his blind anger at catching his niece he fancied having sex with a man accidentally kills her in a rage. But the dad is also guilty of drugging women he meets so he's creepy as well.
He tells the man he will blame him for the murder, and the police will believe him because his DNA is inside his dead niece.
He gives the man rufies to sedate his daughter who was upstairs during all of this while he disposes of the dead girl's body. While he's gone, the other guy gives the daughter the drug but then smothers her after she tells him she saw her dad kill her cousin, and that she saw him having sex with her cousin before the dad got home and caught them.
Another woman gets involved during all this, the guy's girlfriend, who arrives right after the dad has killed his niece and she helps them cover it up. She was completely innocent, but then gets involved, even helping to administer the knockout drug to the remaining girl, and to clean up the mess; even after she knows her boyfriend has been unfaithful she encourages him to smother the other girl.

So now they've each killed one of the girls and cannot turn each other in. In applying it to
Lauren's case, it would involve JR, DB, and JW and only one girl..
Detective realizes the weak link and arrests the girlfriend;
playing dirty by telling the man about the girlfriend's abortion and starting a big fight between them'

And as we know, DB and JR are super dooper tight since boyhood.
IMO, if the 5N are involved, DB is involved. THAT's the reason JR takes the blame alone as the last person to see her, and says his friend was asleep.

JR: friend who helps cover up
JW: jealous uncle
DB: Guy who seduces niece and is caught
Lauren: niece
CR: rufied, but not killed, daughter
idle speculation

 

[Ros]

I agree with everyone who has said what the students think, that it's safe, it's their turf. BUT it isn't safe, yes, it's Bloomington, but not the same Bloomington as even, 10 years ago.

As we have seen here, the college towns are a playground for killers. They may not be NYC or the like, but a specific
victim is there--the drunk, blacked out young woman/man.

As in most of these college towns, morning, noon, afternoon and early evening, no problems. IMO, after 9:30-10 pm,
it's not safe for a woman alone. MOST of the time, nothing is gonna happen.

10 years ago, Bloomington didn't have a raging meth problem. These people are mostly unemployable, and they prey on people in various and evil ways.

Because someone isn't aware of the problem, doesn't change the fact that they are the target. And because some of these students are from bigger cities, they think they are in
Mayberry RFD and don't worry. Sadly, their parents might have this idea too.

When people are drinking and drugging and mixing with a few thousand strangers, the only safety is in numbers. My adice would be, DO NOT GO OUT DRINKING ALONE OR GET SEPARATED FROM YOUR FRIENDS.

This advice should be posted prominently in every bar in town, by decree.

Bloomington wasn't all that safe even in 1977 when Margaret Ann Hayes disappeared after buying cigarettes late at night four blocks from her home.

 

[Ixchel13]

Bloomington wasn't all that safe even in 1977 when Margaret Ann Hayes disappeared after buying cigarettes late at night four blocks from her home.

that's correct.

When I say college towns are playgrounds for killers, I didn't mean there's a bunch of killers partying in every town at any given moment.

I'm saying that if someone wanted to abduct and kill; or date
rape or drug and rape a woman or man--that's an expedient place to find victims.

And this is whether you are a serial killer/first time offender/friend of victim/acquaintance/etc.

And this is whether you are from that college town, or just decide to drive to a college town for your crime. No matter which town you drive to, the same type of victim will be there, under the same condition, under the same circumstances.

Very unlikely, but, if someone like that were out there that early morning, Lauren would be that perfect victim. And that is the time they would strike, not at midnight but in the wee hours, when any woman out alone would be most vulnerable and everyone else passed out.

If I seem like a bundle of contradictions, it's because I've always felt it could have been either 5N et al or an abductor.
I hope we have finally reached a point on Lauren's thread where we can discuss either theory without a lot of
snarky rebuttals.

 

[Ixchel13]

Well, on top of the multiple / contradictory accounts from friends, lawyers, etc., the Spierers and their private investigators have flat out said that their stories don't add up and are that they are almost certainly withholding information. When the last people to be seen with a missing person can't tell a coherent story of the last hours they were with her and refuse to fully cooperate with an investigation, this is, at minimum, the most valid place to begin asking questions.

DM sounds like a monster - so that's a place to ask questions too! I do think there is a possibility that he could be involved in Lauren's case if there happened to be the right set of extremely unlikely circumstances. But, I'm certain that if he was involved, LE would have or will be able to find evidence to link him to the case through video surveillance footage or other evidence. It seems it would be likely that they could identify him or his vehicle if it was in the area, and in Hannah's case, it seems he did practically nothing to conceal evidence. I do wonder why the private investigators were quick to dismiss a connection though since they obviously know more about this case than we do.

If Lauren was the victim of a random abduction, and the POI's changing stories are simply the result of them wanting to avoid all responsibility for getting her wasted and then sending her out into the night barefoot and without a cell phone, then it's unfortunate that they have done so at Lauren's expense -- and really, their own, since they will continue to live in the shadow of the "person of interest" label until this crime is solved.

BBM good question! Were they dismissing the connection, or were they effectively dismissing US from the investigation?

 

[Ibiz]

I guess I'm still stuck on the part where she had to be carried to the apartment.

 

[imkeylime]

I guess I'm still stuck on the part where she had to be carried to the apartment.

Let's add that she was carried by a guy who was allegedly also intoxicated and had just been punched in the face. We know that she fell, but he could have also dropped her. Just saying.

 

[Ibiz]

Let's add that she was carried by a guy who was allegedly also intoxicated and had just been punched in the face. We know that she fell, but he could have also dropped her. Just saying.

That's a good point I didn't think about. I've only been reading about this case for a few days, so I feel I have a fresh prospective.

Lauren would have had to have been carried or dragged up one or two flights of steps to get to the second floor apartment . Once inside, she would of had to have been set down somewhere. Maybe on the floor or a couch/chair. After which, Roseman became sick and stumbled upstairs to bed with the help of Beth.

I'm Just speculating here, but I would think by the time Beth came back down stairs, little 95 pound Lauren who couldn't walk to the apartment in the first place would have been ether passed out or probably have been very sick herself.

This is where my brain freezes in the story and gets stuck. I know it's possible (although not likely) that if she laid down for a half hour or 45 minutes, thrown up a couple times, she could have got up and started moving around again.

So let's say she stumbled from the appartment to the corner of 11th and College, where she fell into the arms of Daniel Messel.

I would think she would have let out a scream or something, but that's besides the point. My problem with this is the fact that LE combed every piece of video footage in the city, and the only thing found on video that morning was a white truck that we know was a contractor on his way to work.

So if DM was trolling the streets for drunk little girls that night/morning, then wouldn't there be at least some video evidence of that???

 

[Ros]

There was a rumor that a homeless man heard a scream about 4:30 that morning. He pointed out the approximate location to a reporter. Then the homeless man died or disappeared. This homeless man was mixed up with another homeless man who also died. Not sure how much of all of that is factual.
The FBI examined the video footage. The white truck was singled out because there it appeared to have been driven around the block. Later that observation was explained as being due to a timestamp discrepancy. A week later, BPD stopped scores of vehicles that drove down College early in the morning. It seem that there would have been scores of vehicles on the street the night she disappeared. Not sure why none of them were investigated further or if any also had the timestamp discrepancy.


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[Ibiz]

So are we facing the possibility that DM could have spied Lauren at Kilroy's Bar, and may have stalked/tailed Roseman and Lauren all the way back to the appartment where he laid and waited outside?

 

[akh]

I've said this before but it probably bears repeating...
While it might seem incredulous not to say for this theory or that theory it would've have been picked up on camera so it can't be true. But then we need to remember, whatever happened must've escaped the camera's eye or else this case would be solved.

So I don't think any theory should be discredited due to a (apparent) lack of video evidence.

 

[Ixchel13]

There was a rumor that a homeless man heard a scream about 4:30 that morning. He pointed out the approximate location to a reporter. Then the homeless man died or disappeared. This homeless man was mixed up with another homeless man who also died. Not sure how much of all of that is factual.
The FBI examined the video footage. The white truck was singled out because there it appeared to have been driven around the block. Later that observation was explained as being due to a timestamp discrepancy. A week later, BPD stopped scores of vehicles that drove down College early in the morning. It seem that there would have been scores of vehicles on the street the night she disappeared. Not sure why none of them were investigated further or if any also had the timestamp discrepancy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Also, in the beginning when the bar mgr. witness was talking to TG iirc, and she said she went around the block or something like that does anyone else remember that?

 

[Ixchel13]

So are we facing the possibility that DM could have spied Lauren at Kilroy's Bar, and may have stalked/tailed Roseman and Lauren all the way back to the appartment where he laid and waited outside?

Wow, you just gave me that idea.. DM seemed to have stalked Hannah and her cab possibly from Kilroys.

Yogis, where DM was every Thursday, is right around the corner from the group of houses JW and the other AEPIs lived in.

Yeah this guy def looks good for this. And if she fell into his hands, for some reason, these other guys are lying about
how she would have gotten there.

From Kilroys to Yogis, only five blocks away. approx. it's not like DM had to go too far. Thursday is the night the students call "Thirsty Thursday" and at bars is always busier than Fri or Sat.

from links posted above DM has told someone that he had
picked up a drunk woman and gave her a ride. Not the crazy guy, it was someone else, at work? iirc.

Now the crazy guy says DM told him he picked up a blacked out woman, raped her, and left her in a random yard.

It could be the same story told differently.

And yes stalking them would not be out of the question. As I said hundreds of posts ago, there had to be other women circulating back and forth I have never believed Lauren was the only woman around.

So, to be stalking that group at the end of their partying;
watching ZC and roomies, HT and friends, the bar mgr.,
Some of the girls lived at SW, some lived at 10th and C;
and some at 10th and V. So originally, they would be at their apts, then pre game there and down the hall;

Then, they went up the street to JRs. Lauren, HT and roomies lived at SW; ZC and roomies at 10th and C and V. So, they are going back and forth down the same 3 blocks, with Kilroys right there.

 

[Ibiz]

I've said this before but it probably bears repeating...
While it might seem incredulous not to say for this theory or that theory it would've have been picked up on camera so it can't be true. But then we need to remember, whatever happened must've escaped the camera's eye or else this case would be solved.

So I don't think any theory should be discredited due to a (apparent) lack of video evidence.

Point well taken. I thought about this earlier and came to the conclusion that if DM had been doing his stalking/trolling routine for a while then there is a chance that he could of mapped out the locations of cameras in the area.

So we have three fellows that won't speak to police or media, and one monster that was caught red handed murding a 22-year-old girl.

I hope we learn more at the trial for DM in February.

 

[Ibiz]

Wow, you just gave me that idea.. DM seemed to have stalked Hannah and her cab possibly from Kilroys.

Yogis, where DM was every Thursday, is right around the corner from the group of houses JW and the other AEPIs lived in.

Yeah this guy def looks good for this. And if she fell into his hands, for some reason, these other guys are lying about
how she would have gotten there.

From Kilroys to Yogis, only five blocks away. approx. it's not like DM had to go too far. Thursday is the night the students call "Thirsty Thursday" and at bars is always busier than Fri or Sat.

from links posted above DM has told someone that he had
picked up a drunk woman and gave her a ride. Not the crazy guy, it was someone else, at work? iirc.

Now the crazy guy says DM told him he picked up a blacked out woman, raped her, and left her in a random yard.

It could be the same story told differently.

And yes stalking them would not be out of the question. As I said hundreds of posts ago, there had to be other women circulating back and forth I have never believed Lauren was the only woman around.

So, to be stalking that group at the end of their partying;
watching ZC and roomies, HT and friends, the bar mgr.,
Some of the girls lived at SW, some lived at 10th and C;
and some at 10th and V. So originally, they would be at their apts, then pre game there and down the hall;

Then, they went up the street to JRs. Lauren, HT and roomies lived at SW; ZC and roomies at 10th and C and V. So, they are going back and forth down the same 3 blocks, with Kilroys right there.

Absolutely, he could have been watching these girls for days, weeks, or months just waiting for the right time to make his move. Trivia night at Yogies could have been his cover. Maybe Hannah wasn't as drunk as he thought, and she fought back.

 

[Ibiz]

There was a rumor that a homeless man heard a scream about 4:30 that morning. He pointed out the approximate location to a reporter. Then the homeless man died or disappeared.

If this is true the I have chills.

 

[Ros]

If this is true the I have chills.

Here is a link to the original report about the homeless man and the scream. http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/09/news.qp-6103048.sto

 

[Ros]

The articles about the deaths of homeless men/man in Bloomington in 2011 are on the H-T website, but I do not have a subscription. One was found behind an old Ponderosa restaurant.

The information linking the homeless man who died or the one who disappeared (still not sure if these were the same person) with the one who heard the scream may have come from the person who was the first to make DB's name public by finding the "corned beef" tweet. However, some people have questioned that person's credibility.

 

[Ibiz]

"We’re still checking on a report that a homeless man heard a woman scream about 4:35 a.m. Friday at a location just west of where Spierer was last seen. One of our reporters Thursday walked, with the man, along the route he said he took early Friday morning. He also has told police what he heard."

I guess that could be Pertty significant due to the fact that not many screams are heard at 4:35 in the morning.

 

[Ibiz]

"We’re still checking on a report that a homeless man heard a woman scream about 4:35 a.m. Friday at a location just west of where Spierer was last seen. One of our reporters Thursday walked, with the man, along the route he said he took early Friday morning. He also has told police what he heard."

I guess that could be Pertty significant due to the fact that not many screams are heard at 4:35 in the morning.