IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34

[Ixchel13]

Well, thankfully, "the public" can believe whatever they want. So if Messel is #1 on your personal list of suspects, that's fine I'm waiting to hear if there is any evidence of a link between the cases before he makes my list!

BBM well we all agree he fits the bill, how could we not?

One question was put to rest though, "Is there a killer amongst us we should be worried about?"

Yes there was. Wonder when and if Messel was on their radar.

Wonder if Messel did any printing jobs for Hannah/sorority or if they were customers at his work.

 

[Simon Gotch]

Possibly OT/Possibly Not: but there have been more assaults lately on female students at IU.

November 13th Incident:
http://www.wthr.com/story/30507923/woman-assaulted-on-ius-bloomington-campus

BLOOMINGTON, Ind. -Indiana University Police are investigating a violent sexual assault on the Bloomington campus.
The two suspects got away. The young woman managed to escape with minor injuries. Over 12 hours after the attack, students are cautious, and some parents are scared for their children.

November 17th Incident:
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...ual-assault-reported-near-iu-campus/75914290/

BLOOMINGTON, Ind. — Police at Indiana University’s Bloomington campus are investigating a reported sexual assault near Brownstone Apartments, according to Fox59.
Police say a man armed with a handgun sexually assaulted a female near the apartments before fleeing the area.

 

[imkeylime]

Possibly OT/Possibly Not: but there have been more assaults lately on female students at IU.

November 13th Incident:
http://www.wthr.com/story/30507923/woman-assaulted-on-ius-bloomington-campus


November 17th Incident:
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...ual-assault-reported-near-iu-campus/75914290/

Thanks for sharing, not OT at all. What happened to these young women could have happened to LS, with even worst consequences. A couple of things to note: the tattoo described by the 11-17 victim seems pretty identifiable. And the height of the two men described in the 11-13 and 11-17 attacks seem similar, but the first two men were described as "stocky" and the one from the second attack described as having a "slim build." At least there are descriptions to go on.

There was some discussion way back of a man at Sports interacting with LS that night. I wish I could remember more (and will look into it) ...

 

[Ixchel13]

Ros, TIA for putting on your thinking cap...many years ago there was a Dunn Woods rapist that had everyone terrified. Those woods are creepy, every time I walk through there I remember the rapist, had to cut across there quite a bit, thing about them is, you know you shouldn't cut through but it' a time saver. What
makes the place creepy is that you are aware that it's really not out in the woods and lots of people could be lurking. When my son was little we would go to the observatory near the woods, and once he ran away from me and into Dunn Woods, at night, and for a minute
was running around those paths, talk about a near panic attack.

When you see how lit up our stadium is at all times, it's
time to spend money lighting up Dunn Woods.

 

[Ros]

Ros, TIA for putting on your thinking cap...many years ago there was a Dunn Woods rapist that had everyone terrified. Those woods are creepy, every time I walk through there I remember the rapist, had to cut across there quite a bit, thing about them is, you know you shouldn't cut through but it' a time saver. What
makes the place creepy is that you are aware that it's really not out in the woods and lots of people could be lurking. When my son was little we would go to the observatory near the woods, and once he ran away from me and into Dunn Woods, at night, and for a minute
was running around those paths, talk about a near panic attack.

When you see how lit up our stadium is at all times, it's
time to spend money lighting up Dunn Woods.

There is a story about Herman B Wells in which he would walk around campus at night, reading a book, accompanied by a guy from the IU physical plant. Whenever the light was so dim that he could not read, he'd say, "Install a light here." Maybe he never walked through Dunn woods....

 

[monkey222]

Test...

 

[imkeylime]

I'm here. I wish something or someone would break in terms of this case. It's way beyond time to bring Lauren home.

 

[stephsb]

I feel this case is not going to be solved by talking because all the people who need to be talking have attorneys. The only way I can see this gaining traction is if a body is found by chance, and it forces someone to start talking


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[newmember]

I feel this case is not going to be solved by talking because all the people who need to be talking have attorneys. The only way I can see this gaining traction is if a body is found by chance, and it forces someone to start talking


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great point - If a body were to be found at this point, does anyone have any have any scientific knowledge of what information would still be available to LE/Medical Examiners that would put the POIs under pressure?

 

[newmember]

Since there seems to be a lull, I'll present an idea; I don't even 100% agree with my thoughts but just some dialogue for all of us:

JR/MB/CR are often presented as a trio. What about a theory involving only 1 or 2 and the other 1-2 are not involved? I've mentioned this before but one of my biggest hangups on the trio of POIs is I don't think 3 young adults would 1) leave no evidence for this long and/or 2) not crack under pressure.

For example, if CR really did pass out/go to sleep shortly after they made it back to his apt, there are scenarios that could involve ONLY MB/JR. They could pitch their own version to CR in the morning of "what happened". As someone who somewhat partied on the same level in college and is their age, I can believe at least one blacked/passed out and has a legitimately shaky memory. Maybe CRs memory was/is corrupted by people he consider(ed) friends and maybe he is telling the truth to the best of his ability?

IMO, there are other theories to concoct from the idea some POIs are actually in the dark, including more than the main 3 POIs, so shoot out theories if you have them - just suggesting a new way to brainstorm! (IMO, Unless LS did walk home, I can't think of a version that involves JR being entirely misled because I can't understand why he inserted himself at all then).

In summary, I'm of the opinion this doesn't start and end with the 3 POIs. They contributed to a series of events that night, but I think at most 2 of them are involved PLUS ANOTHER STORYLINE ...

 

[Ros]

Great point - If a body were to be found at this point, does anyone have any have any scientific knowledge of what information would still be available to LE/Medical Examiners that would put the POIs under pressure?

I have some scientific education, but I am not a forensic scientist. However, it is my understanding that the remains of soldier who were MIA during World War II have been identified via DNA from bone fragments. It should be possible to identify more recent remains via dental records, DNA, remains of clothing and jewelry found with the body, etc. But it might or might not be possible to identify DNA from the person who hid the body. IMHO, it would be much less likely. A forensic pathologist might be able to ascertain cause of death if there was evidence left in the bones, remaining tissue, etc. Much depends on the conditions (outside, inside, wet, dry, cold, warm, ...) where they body was left. Forensic science does not work in real life as it does on TV shows, where the evidence is processed quickly and the results are clear-cut. It takes much longer to analyze the evidence, and evaluating the results is more challenging. See this article to see what I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect

 

[Ros]

Since there seems to be a lull, I'll present an idea; I don't even 100% agree with my thoughts but just some dialogue for all of us:

JR/MB/CR are often presented as a trio. What about a theory involving only 1 or 2 and the other 1-2 are not involved? I've mentioned this before but one of my biggest hangups on the trio of POIs is I don't think 3 young adults would 1) leave no evidence for this long and/or 2) not crack under pressure.

For example, if CR really did pass out/go to sleep shortly after they made it back to his apt, there are scenarios that could involve ONLY MB/JR. They could pitch their own version to CR in the morning of "what happened". As someone who somewhat partied on the same level in college and is their age, I can believe at least one blacked/passed out and has a legitimately shaky memory. Maybe CRs memory was/is corrupted by people he consider(ed) friends and maybe he is telling the truth to the best of his ability?

IMO, there are other theories to concoct from the idea some POIs are actually in the dark, including more than the main 3 POIs, so shoot out theories if you have them - just suggesting a new way to brainstorm! (IMO, Unless LS did walk home, I can't think of a version that involves JR being entirely misled because I can't understand why he inserted himself at all then).

In summary, I'm of the opinion this doesn't start and end with the 3 POIs. They contributed to a series of events that night, but I think at most 2 of them are involved PLUS ANOTHER STORYLINE ...

I think there has been a great deal of speculation about another story line involving JR's friend(s) from Michigan who were at his apartment that night.

 

[newmember]

I think there has been a great deal of speculation about another story line involving JR's friend(s) from Michigan who were at his apartment that night.

Very true, there has been that speculation - So, let's revisit that. What if, instead of the main 3 POIs + JRs friends are ALL involved, CR passes out and MB walks LS down to JRs but then leaves. That creates a possible scenario where both MB and CR know nothing more and the fatal encounter occurs ONLY between LS, JR and JRs friends.

I wish there was more evidence to pressure the "low profile" POIs.

 

[stephsb]

Glad someone got the conversation going again

Regarding 5N and the 3 POIs, I agree that unless she walked herself out of JR's by her own choice, he is most likely to be involved. I think there is definitely a scenario where JR/MB are involved and CR is telling the truth and uninvolved after his arrival back to 5N, but I think at the very least MB/JR know more than they are letting on. I've stated earlier in the thread that my feeling on JR's probable involvement is him willingly placing himself as the last person to see Lauren alive- a position he had to know was dangerous. It could have been MB/JR together placing themselves as the last people to see Lauren, (MB taking Lauren to JR's, Lauren refusing to stay, JR lets her and MB go at the same time, in different directions, or some version of that) so one has to conclude he's either telling the truth, or he willingly placed himself and only himself as the last person to see Lauren alive (for whatever reason). I doubt Lauren was able to walk anywhere in her condition, and I really doubt JR was administering field sobriety tests, which is why I believe he's involved in some fashion.

My problem w. 5N is how they successfully dumped her body. IIRC, CR's car was searched, so that is probably out. This could be where the guests at JR's apt come in, or possibly where MB comes in. MB seems to have been the most sober of the group, did he have a car, or did he use someone's car? Someone of the bunch had to have been thinking w. a clear head, and my guess is it definitely wasn't CR. JR had been drinking/doing drugs all night, so I'm questionable as to what his state of mind was as well.

I won't hold my breath, but a lot of questions would definitely be answered (IMO) if we could figure out why JR placed himself as the last person to see her, while CR, the last confirmed person to see her, gets to claim amnesia. That's a pretty nice favor to do for someone, no matter how close of a friend you are. The only people to confirm Lauren ever made it back to 5N are JR/MB, I'm not sure CR has even said that she did(someone correct me if I'm wrong on that). Personally, I think something happened prior to even reaching 5N and that's when CR realized Lauren was either dead or in a seriously bad state, and probably panicked. Either he brought her back to 5N and that's when MB/JR got involved, or he called them at some point, or something. Maybe he wanted to call for help and JR panicked because he was the one who gave her alcohol and drugs, so they decided to get rid of the body and just cut CR out completely- one less story to keep straight. That also could explain the 4AM phone call to DR, who was doing klonopin w. Lauren earlier- JR attempting to shove the drug blame on someone else.

One last thing about why I doubt JR's story about Lauren walking home. She had no cell phone (JR said they were calling DR to find it) and no keys to get into Smallwood. She also had no shoes. How exactly did JR expect her to get into her apt in the first place? It's not like she had a phone to call her roommates w. and she also didn't have keys. If he's telling the truth and Lauren walked to her apt by herself w.o a cellphone or her keys, then I think it's obvious JR misjudged her condition. I just have a hard time buying that story at all.

 

[Ros]

Finally found the article that said that JR reported that LS had her fake ID and Smallwood key card with her when she came to his apartment:
"They [LS and MB] came over together, and Rosenbaum said he put on sweatclothes and opened the door. Spierer came carrying her fake ID and Smallwood key card, he said."

http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/news02/306030045

According to the article I quoted in a previous post, JR said that LS had her Smallwood key card with her when she reached his apartment.

 

[stephsb]

Thanks for the clarification on the keycard Ros, I think I remember this discussion vaguely

Even w. The keycard, I still feel there is something off w. JR's story. First off, how she managed to hang onto her keycard and fake id but lose literally everything else (jmo, but if it was me, those would be the first things to go) is interesting. I suppose it's possible JR did "sobriety tests" on Lauren and decided she was good to go w.o her phone or shoes, who knows. This case drives me crazy because even though I'm really stuck on 5N's involvement (to varying degrees) there are countless possibilities that can't be ruled out...and no one talking. Ugh. Can't imagine how her poor family feels. What a nightmare.


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[imkeylime]

Since there seems to be a lull, I'll present an idea; I don't even 100% agree with my thoughts but just some dialogue for all of us:

JR/MB/CR are often presented as a trio. What about a theory involving only 1 or 2 and the other 1-2 are not involved? I've mentioned this before but one of my biggest hangups on the trio of POIs is I don't think 3 young adults would 1) leave no evidence for this long and/or 2) not crack under pressure.

For example, if CR really did pass out/go to sleep shortly after they made it back to his apt, there are scenarios that could involve ONLY MB/JR. They could pitch their own version to CR in the morning of "what happened". As someone who somewhat partied on the same level in college and is their age, I can believe at least one blacked/passed out and has a legitimately shaky memory. Maybe CRs memory was/is corrupted by people he consider(ed) friends and maybe he is telling the truth to the best of his ability?

IMO, there are other theories to concoct from the idea some POIs are actually in the dark, including more than the main 3 POIs, so shoot out theories if you have them - just suggesting a new way to brainstorm! (IMO, Unless LS did walk home, I can't think of a version that involves JR being entirely misled because I can't understand why he inserted himself at all then).

In summary, I'm of the opinion this doesn't start and end with the 3 POIs. They contributed to a series of events that night, but I think at most 2 of them are involved PLUS ANOTHER STORYLINE ...

Thanks for good points to discuss. In addition to "cracking under pressure," I used to think that someone would spill something while partying, unless they all gave up their partying ways after all this (which seems doubtful). I also agree somewhat about CR. While he was able to carry LS, he might have indeed crashed after arriving at 5N. There has to be some reason that he isn't included in the final scene. ??? Also, while I don't buy forever amnesia, he might have been groggy by the time he reached 5N. After a bit too much celebrating a significant birthday, I lowered the hatchback of a van on my head. I know that injuries don't compare, but I can believe that ZO's punch caused some immediate discomfort at least. But I do feel that CR should be able to remember some of what happened that night. I agree with the comment that lawyers have advised him not to talk or perhaps even remember.

It's JR letting LS leave without a phone that makes me question his story. He couldn't have given her shoes to wear, but he could have lent her his phone. He acknowledges that she had a bruised face and got an I-pod confused for a phone. I just don't see why he wouldn't have lent her a phone after making phone calls about her, as he claimed. But maybe I'm just expecting a bit more caring on his part.

In summary, it seems likely to me that either two or less people were involved and if two, that they are very close and able to keep a big secret.

 

[Ixchel13]

Thanks for good points to discuss. In addition to "cracking under pressure," I used to think that someone would spill something while partying, unless they all gave up their partying ways after all this (which seems doubtful). I also agree somewhat about CR. While he was able to carry LS, he might have indeed crashed after arriving at 5N. There has to be some reason that he isn't included in the final scene. ??? Also, while I don't buy forever amnesia, he might have been groggy by the time he reached 5N. After a bit too much celebrating a significant birthday, I lowered the hatchback of a van on my head. I know that injuries don't compare, but I can believe that ZO's punch caused some immediate discomfort at least. But I do feel that CR should be able to remember some of what happened that night. I agree with the comment that lawyers have advised him not to talk or perhaps even remember.

It's JR letting LS leave without a phone that makes me question his story. He couldn't have given her shoes to wear, but he could have lent her his phone. He acknowledges that she had a bruised face and got an I-pod confused for a phone. I just don't see why he wouldn't have lent her a phone after making phone calls about her, as he claimed. But maybe I'm just expecting a bit more caring on his part.

In summary, it seems likely to me that either two or less people were involved and if two, that they are very close and able to keep a big secret.

you might let Lauren leave in bad condition w. no shoes or phone if you knew that someone (JW?) was coming to get her, would be intercepting her at the corner,

 

[akh]

I don't think any of them considered the area they lived in to be some war zone or concrete jungle. I don't think they would've thought any more of LS walking back to her apartment late at night in Bloomington, IN than if she'd been going to a next door apartment or down the hall.
They lived there in those surroundings. Worked/school/played/partied in those surroundings. While we can talk about statistics, and the dark underbelly of society, it's still Bloomington, IN we're talking about. Not some bad part of Chicago, IL.. And an area of town that they'd more or less consider their backyard. Therefore, I think it's perfectly reasonable if she insisted on walking back to her apartment and refused an offer to stay, nobody would have thought any more about it than if she was walking down the hallway. As for the lack of shoes, she apparently arrived without shoes and it was summer/late spring. Not really all that unusual. Especially after a night of drinking.

There seems to be this notion that she was going out alone into some dark and foreboding decrepit city like on some horror movie where she didn't know anyone and was miles from her home, lost, and not on familiar turf with barely an idea of how to get home. And walking on some briar lined, rock and dirt path.

It's Bloomington. And it's their part of the town. These college kids are all extremely comfortable in those surroundings whether they should be or not. It's a very small town/college town vibe. And they are young and think they are invincible. Also, guys and girls and their relationships have changed over the years. While a guy might be protective of his GF in that situation, I don't think it's odd a young guy would treat LS much different than any of his other friends that decided they wanted to walk home in this situation.

So, for me, thinking the story falls apart because it's too heartless or not the way friends would act is really naive. I think it's exactly the way college kids would act in this type of circumstance. Granted it might be different in a large city or a place where everyone lives in fear and triple locks their doors and has bars on the windows and don't venture out to socialize in the immediate area. But that is not the case for most of the IU student body on or off campus.

 

[AbbeyR]

For me it falls apart because there are multiple witnesses and video surveillance that indicate that Lauren couldn't walk on her own after leaving Kilroy's. The POI at 5 N gave conflicting and misleading stories, if not flat out lies, to try to cover this up. For example, CR's lawyer first gave statements that indicated that Lauren was helping Corey home, which was shown to be false when reports of the video surveillance surfaced that showed Corey literally dragging and carrying Lauren back to his place. Then we have early reports that MB claimed Lauren left wanting to party, which he reportedly later changed when in an interview with private investigators, he revealed that they were worried about her condition and trying to find a way to get her home. Why would they need to find her a ride if she could walk?

JR also appears to have lied in early stories about Lauren making phone calls from his place. In that same interview with Private investigators, MB claimed that JR made those calls. The fact that there are multiple examples of the the POI giving misleading statements to friends, via lawyers, etc. of Lauren's condition to make it seem like she was in a better state than she was is telling, IMO, and casts serious doubt on JR's story that she was able to walk out of his apartment without stumbling. As does the fact that he appears to have changed the details of that part of the story as well (she turned the corner towards home/ She walked towards the corner/ she was intercepted walking to the corner... and so on).