IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34

[imkeylime]

I only bring it up as Hayden brought up that his friend may have hit her. No other vehicles were seen or mentioned. That leads to the possibility Hayden is being truthful and explain her vanishing and not seen on other cameras. "Hitting her" may not have damaged the vehicle as she was already banged up, intoxicated and close to unconscienceness. She could have been in the alleyway, on the street or curb passed out. Maybe the friend only ran her over. Anyways, the police could have scoured the truck and questioned the owner weeks later and found nothing if the friend had wrapped her in a blanket or tarp in the back before disposing and left her wrapped in it leaving no forensic evidence. It's not unlikely, it could still be relevant considering this new information.

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FWIW, I don't think it's wrong to bring up the white truck or to consider DM even if they're extreme long shots. This thread was too quiet for too long, and the case is pretty darn cold, IMO. One little thing could lead to a bigger one! Also, whereas the white truck appears to be cleared by LE, things can change. I learned that the hard way in the other main case I follow. Over the years, a piece of evidence found at a suicide scene was misplaced … and that evidence (ligatures) could have had DNA on it.

Also, I find it kind of weird that JR mentioned someone lurking in the shadows right before this whole DM thing surfaced. I wonder if he mentioned it previously to LE and we never heard. Or that there possibly was someone who intercepted LS with JR's knowledge and he's trying to deflect. I still wonder about that second phone call that we know little about. Just saying.

 

[AbbeyR]

crazy theory: what if Hayden, when he says HE helped a friend who had hit someone with HER car, he means Messell, not himself? Or, that he and Messell both helped the woman move the body?
Another question: did they help the woman dump the body initially? Because otherwise the woman would have to go with them to find it and move it.

Where did you see "HER car"? The link I read said this:

Hayden claims that Messel disposed of a decomposing woman's body on a Memorial Day camping trip to Brown County in 2012 to "protect a friend who accidentally struck her with a vehicle."

http://www.wbiw.com/local/archive/2...essel-trolled-iu-campus-looking-for-women.php

 

[akh]

Where did you see "HER car"? The link I read said this:

http://www.wbiw.com/local/archive/2...essel-trolled-iu-campus-looking-for-women.php

I think there was a typo on one of the articles saying "her" instead of "he".

 

[AbbeyR]

I strongly believe Hayden's story for some odd reason.

I don't know. It doesn't make any sense to me. Why would someone relocate a body a year later, long after the searches are over? And if he was going to, why would he need help? Why would he get some random convict acquaintance to help him, and why would that person agree? Under what context would he have the opportunity to take photos, and why sit on them for so long? I can't think of reasonable answers to these questions. Plus, the guy is in a psych ward and it looks like he has a history of filing petitions:
https://dockets.justia.com/search?query=David+Hayden&noscat=6

JMO

 

[Ixchel13]

I think there was a typo on one of the articles saying "her" instead of "he".

yes because I re-read that sentence several times to
make sure it said "her" car and now I can't find it!

Something about Messeell's co-workers being "worried" about him not showing up for work the next day bothers me.

Was it the guy he dropped off--how far is this guy involved I wonder?

Were they more angry than worried, and what were they worried about?

How far back does his co-workers' "worry" go? Back to 2011?

Hayden and Messell are tied in with that group of people I have talked about that lurk in these bars
and prey on these students, it's an evil cottage industry. I can imagine them sitting in jail exchanging stories.

In such a small town, perennial neerdowells would
run into each other regularly.

Hayden's info is probably a hodgepodge of evil gossip
spread amongst these types, and Daniel Messell is someone he has associated with who has IMO told him he knows who killed Lauren.

He could also be talking about Jill Berman, there was so much gossip about her being in Salt Creek that they dammed and drained a huge part of it, and found evidence the witness talked about but no body, and then people were saying the suspect moved the body.

 

[stephsb]

Have to say I agree with Abbey on all points. I got the same impression w. Hayden- he has a history of doing this. TBH, his story was so absurd it was laughable to me. The moving the body, the pictures, Hayden's involvement, and why he's first mentioning it now- all issues I also have w. It.


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[imkeylime]

yes because I re-read that sentence several times to
make sure it said "her" car and now I can't find it!

Something about Messeell's co-workers being "worried" about him not showing up for work the next day bothers me.

Was it the guy he dropped off--how far is this guy involved I wonder?

Were they more angry than worried, and what were they worried about?

How far back does his co-workers' "worry" go? Back to 2011?

Hayden and Messell are tied in with that group of people I have talked about that lurk in these bars
and prey on these students, it's an evil cottage industry. I can imagine them sitting in jail exchanging stories.

In such a small town, perennial neerdowells would
run into each other regularly.

Hayden's info is probably a hodgepodge of evil gossip
spread amongst these types, and Daniel Messell is someone he has associated with who has IMO told him he knows who killed Lauren.

He could also be talking about Jill Berman, there was so much gossip about her being in Salt Creek that they dammed and drained a huge part of it, and found evidence the witness talked about but no body, and then people were saying the suspect moved the body.

I understand what you're saying here … the old birds of a feather thing. It's also possible that Hayden has mental health issues and seems confused because he really is confused. Worst yet, Messell himself may have misrepresented himself in order to look good, as sick as that sounds. Still, all leads must be followed up on. Maybe one thing will someday lead to another.

 

[akh]

Whether this guy's story is at all credible (or not) doesn't change DM's position. IOW, even if this Hayden guy turns out to totally be fabricating all of this nobody should then leap to the conclusion that means DM had nothing to do with LS' disappearance. It just means a crazy guy concocted a story about a potential POI. DM shouldn't be off the hook as a potential POI because a crazy guy happened to implicate him based on his imagination.

The photos seem to me to be the biggest stretch in his story. But with cellphones these days it wouldn't be that hard to snap a couple of photos without another person noticing. It's not the same as if he grabbed an actual camera and had it in his hand when DM turned around for a moment. And if a nutcase would be involved in helping someone else move a body then who is to say taking photos of it is too crazy to consider? And helping move a body is something that has happened before so why not consider it here? In fact, a majority of the theories involving 5N contain the idea of people helping to move a body.

Second point, what if this Hayden guy is the actual perpetrator and really took 'trophy' photos and now is using the opportunity to hang this on DM? Stranger things have happened.

At some point I hope LE comes up with something, whether a deal or whatever, that forces this guy's hand to provide these photos he claims to have. If he really has them and misrepresents them the deal should be off... and if he doesn't have them then the deal should be off as well. So are they willing to deal...have they tried... or are they so convinced it's all made up that they are totally ignoring him?

 

[AbbeyR]

And helping move a body is something that has happened before so why not consider it here? In fact, a majority of the theories involving 5N contain the idea of people helping to move a body.

There's a pretty big difference between hiding a body to get away with a crime, and digging up and relocating a decomposing body a year later, for no apparent reason.

Whether this guy's story is at all credible (or not) doesn't change DM's position. IOW, even if this Hayden guy turns out to totally be fabricating all of this nobody should then leap to the conclusion that means DM had nothing to do with LS' disappearance. It just means a crazy guy concocted a story about a potential POI. DM shouldn't be off the hook as a potential POI because a crazy guy happened to implicate him based on his imagination.

True. But his position right now is that he is not even a POI, as far as we know. The only statements from LE and the private investigators have indicated the opposite.

I agree with keylime that everything, no matter how far fetched, should be investigated though, because you never know. I'm just not holding my breath waiting for crazy-inmate's 'photos' to solve this case.

 

[bx2]

I think there was a typo on one of the articles saying "her" instead of "he".

Just because we know these reporter discrepancies tend to nag:

http://www.idsnews.com/article/2015/11/daniel-messel-case

Hayden also said he has information on the death of IU student Lauren Spierer. In a letter, he claimed that in 2012 a friend hit a woman he believes to be Spierer with her vehicle, killing her. The friend later disposed of the body along Highway 46.

http://www.wbiw.com/local/archive/2...essel-trolled-iu-campus-looking-for-women.php

Hayden claims that Messel disposed of a decomposing woman's body on a Memorial Day camping trip to Brown County in 2012 to "protect a friend who accidentally struck her with a vehicle."

Hayden says he helped Messel recover the woman's remains along Ind. 46 between Bloomington and Ellettsville and gave a detailed description of the area where the body was hidden.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...leged-killer-of-stalking-ius-campus-for-years

Hayden says in 2012 he helped Messel move a decomposing woman's body and rebury it near a Bloomington lake.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/ne...cle_267eba20-a3f0-5524-a8c2-f65230317968.html

In a startling claim, Hayden wrote that he disposed of a decomposing woman’s body on a Memorial Day camping trip to Brown County in 2012 to “protect a friend who accidentally struck her with a vehicle.”

Hayden said he helped recover the remains from along Ind. 46 between Bloomington and Ellettsville, and provided a detailed description of the area.

 

[akh]

True. But his position right now is that he is not even a POI, as far as we know. The only statements from LE and the private investigators have indicated the opposite.

And who has LE named as PsOI in the case?

The only comments from the private investigators were worthless because they happened at a time that there'd been no time to have investigated DM in connection with LS's disappearance because they'd barely even heard of him at that point.

Since LE isn't in the habit of clearing anyone or releasing a list of PsOI in this case I'm not expecting to hear anyone's name get that label at this point until they are about to bring charges. So I don't take the inclusion or exclusion (so far) of DM to mean much of anything. It just means they're not talking, not that he is or is not a POI.

 

[pappa rob]

And who has LE named as PsOI in the case?

The only comments from the private investigators were worthless because they happened at a time that there'd been no time to have investigated DM in connection with LS's disappearance because they'd barely even heard of him at that point.

Since LE isn't in the habit of clearing anyone or releasing a list of PsOI in this case I'm not expecting to hear anyone's name get that label at this point until they are about to bring charges. So I don't take the inclusion or exclusion (so far) of DM to mean much of anything. It just means they're not talking, not that he is or is not a POI.

I would say if he's been charged with one attack and LE's looking into other cases he might be involved in. In my mind he would be considered a POI.

 

[AbbeyR]

And who has LE named as PsOI in the case?

The only comments from the private investigators were worthless because they happened at a time that there'd been no time to have investigated DM in connection with LS's disappearance because they'd barely even heard of him at that point.

Since LE isn't in the habit of clearing anyone or releasing a list of PsOI in this case I'm not expecting to hear anyone's name get that label at this point until they are about to bring charges. So I don't take the inclusion or exclusion (so far) of DM to mean much of anything. It just means they're not talking, not that he is or is not a POI.

Well, as we all know, the people last with Lauren - JR, CR and MB plus JW are the only confirmed Persons of Interest.

And, I don't know if that's true about the timeline - Very quickly after DM was arrested, LE told the family of another missing person (Marina Boelter I think?) that DM was not involved. LE didn't make an official statement, but the family commented on the facebook page ) - This was discussed further back in this thread. So it's possible they know he is not involved and have dismissed it.

I still think it's possible that evidence could turn up that implicates DM, but there's so far no evidence at all and I can't bring myself to jump on this crazy story from an inmate in a psych ward.

ETA: the family of MB was told by a detective that DM was not involved before May 7, when it was posted about about here - so the investigation didn't take long.

 

[akh]

but there's so far no evidence at all

There's about as much 'evidence' for DM as there is anyone else in the case as far as the public is concerned. Saying "there is no evidence so far" is a bit disingenuous simply because LE is not talking at all about LS's case so we most likely wouldn't know if there has been any evidence large or small connecting him.
In fact, as far as official evidence goes, about the only thing 'real' we know at all is that someone has implicated DM (because it's in the files that the public has seen). That he has potential credibility issues is obviously a question mark. But as for other evidence and other PsOI, we really know nothing except speculation based on media reports, or allegations made by the parents in the civil case, with nothing to back them up for the most part. Because LE isn't talking or sharing.

 

[AbbeyR]

No, it's not disingenuous. It's based on the only statement from LE that there is so far no link between DM and Lauren's case. So, we have LE, a former FBI agent investigating the case and the Spierers private investigators who all seem to think that DM is not related to Lauren's case. Perhaps that will change... but that's where we are at so far.

 

[Jacobite]

I feel the most frustrating thing about this case is that we have no proof of anything after 3 AM on the 3rd of June, 2011. I've seen a lot of very strong opinions though. But, where's the proof? And, hasn't it been years since the police have shared any of their theories
with the public?

 

[akh]

No, it's not disingenuous. It's based on the only statement from LE that there is so far no link between DM and Lauren's case. So, we have LE, a former FBI agent investigating the case and the Spierers private investigators who all seem to think that DM is not related to Lauren's case. Perhaps that will change... but that's where we are at so far.

Within hours of DM's arrest, certainly within a day or so, they basically said they had nothing linking him to LS's disappearance (but left unsaid (if not forgotten) was "at this time"). He was arrested for a wholly different case, albeit one with some striking similarities. Of course they had nothing to connect him with LS's case at that point in time. The question is, has anything been developed in these past few months?
Obviously this Hayden thing has popped up. And LE didn't share that with us either. It was only from the work of a reporter (or reporters) following that case and looking at the case file that we learned that someone was implicating DM in connection to LS.
So since LE didn't tell us that, I think it's safe to say they wouldn't have told us anything else either.

Which IMHO leaves us (in the public) with another POI (DM). And one that is an actual killer (technically alleged). Who seems to have stalked the same general area from which LS disappeared. And killed a college girl after a night of drinking and dumped her body.
From the public's POV, and lack of info/updates from LE, how could he NOT be a POI (and high on the list)?

 

[pappa rob]

I feel the most frustrating thing about this case is that we have no proof of anything after 3 AM on the 3rd of June, 2011. I've seen a lot of very strong opinions though. But, where's the proof? And, hasn't it been years since the police have shared any of their theories
with the public?

LE around here doesn't share much of anything on any case. They'll ask for info but that's about it. Lets put it this way, I've heard about five bodies found in the area around here. Never found out who or even what sex they were. The only time you hear anything is when a case goes to trial.

 

[Ixchel13]

Just because we know these reporter discrepancies tend to nag:

http://www.idsnews.com/article/2015/11/daniel-messel-case



http://www.wbiw.com/local/archive/2...essel-trolled-iu-campus-looking-for-women.php


http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...leged-killer-of-stalking-ius-campus-for-years



http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/ne...cle_267eba20-a3f0-5524-a8c2-f65230317968.html

"Hayden claims that Messel disposed of a decomposing woman's body on a Memorial Day camping trip to Brown County in 2012 to "protect a friend who accidentally struck her with a vehicle."
Thanks BX2 !
the IDS article does say, "her" vehicle then
a few quotes down, the Herald Times article just says his friend struck her with "a" vehicle.
Both papers do make errors. But these articles are not in disagreement.
What I also wanted to ask is a bit paranoid, but look what these "campers" were doing on Memorial Day...it really doesn't seem safe these days to go remote hiking, camping, etc.
Does anyone have the stats on this?

 

[AbbeyR]

From the public's POV, and lack of info/updates from LE, how could he NOT be a POI (and high on the list)?

Well, thankfully, "the public" can believe whatever they want. So if Messel is #1 on your personal list of suspects, that's fine I'm waiting to hear if there is any evidence of a link between the cases before he makes my list!