I don't believe anyone would 'cover' for anyone else for any reason other than protecting themselves. In other words, if people are withholding information or covering for others, I believe it would only be because they are avoiding implicating themselves in a crime. Hypothetically, more than one person could fear being charged if they were involved in supplying someone with drugs in the event of an overdose, if there was a sexual assault, etc.
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34
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Ixchel13
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BBM ????? People do this all the time! For love, misguided loyalty or money. One example that immediately comes to mind is how George Zimmerman's wife lied, and helped cover assets--then later was charged with perjury; then later reported him to the police for violently threatening to kill her at gunpoint, then admitted he was a violent person with a volatile temper. If she had said these things initially, HE would be in jail for murdering Trayvon and she would never have been charged. yea, she did it for money--the same reasons these POIs may be lying.
Not only could they get in trouble for OD, etc, but they would lose their fledgling biz. And yes, doubtingthomas, let's do go to Birmingham!
We can prove JW was also in biz with them, if not in the exact biz, he invested in part of a building they all bought together 2 mos after Lauren went missing.
As it says in DT's above link, JW, LS, and JR went REPEATEDLY to the same summer camp! Make no mistake, people they knew each other, knew each other well, and were
FRIENDS, not casual acquaintances!
Ixchel13
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This is OD 101, but in most cases when friends
leave their friends' bodies after an OD they put it somewhere to be found. They don't WANT the person to be missing--then they will be suspected of murder.
If someone was specifically in town to bring a specific drug to distribute, that drug could be
exactly traced back to them by it's "drug DNA"
for lack of a better term.
That drug would have been dealt by 4 AM and
fanned out through different subgroups throughout the evening.
Chances are that LE already has a sample of that drug, has already traced it back to where it came from.
And that's how they'll nab the perps if Lauren shows up and why they didn't want that to happen ever.
leave their friends' bodies after an OD they put it somewhere to be found. They don't WANT the person to be missing--then they will be suspected of murder.
If someone was specifically in town to bring a specific drug to distribute, that drug could be
exactly traced back to them by it's "drug DNA"
for lack of a better term.
That drug would have been dealt by 4 AM and
fanned out through different subgroups throughout the evening.
Chances are that LE already has a sample of that drug, has already traced it back to where it came from.
And that's how they'll nab the perps if Lauren shows up and why they didn't want that to happen ever.
BBM: While this makes sense, I'm not sure it's necessarily true. There are a few cases like this on WS, including a recent one where a girl overdosed and was transported to and thrown into a lake by the people she was with. There was another one I can think of where a girl was rolled up in a carpet and thrown in a dumpster by her friends. People who are in a panic and possibly on drugs themselves can make really illogical and senseless decisions.
Also, how would police have a sample of a drug that was brought in/ consumed that night?
LongTallTexan
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I can't post often because the study of this case is so unpleasant and I have read every post and discussed ad nauseam. My theories have gone back and forth like many, yet I find myself lost in the facts, rumors and debates....and can't make sense of any of it, mostly I hurt for this girl, regardless of what she was herself responsible for, and of course her parents.
I've come to the realization that all that matters is finding her, even if she was my child, I would rather have her back without justice than to not have her back. So the discussion continues to try to uncover a clue or an idea of that happened. So we continue to reassess the night in question, the information we have and the theories.
Most of what we have that has been reported has been relatively true as far as we know. Then, every so often, additional info is leaked out or becomes available through the law suit documents or MSM. So if we have a fairly accurate account of what happened (with the understanding that the POIs testimony is still in question), and since that night we have added to that general timeline of events, but not really modified it, then that leads me to believe that we have a general idea of the facts, but we are missing what is in between....as opposed to what we know being completely false.
So under that premise, I too am interested in the 'lags' of time during the evening...what were CR and LS doing at his apt before Kilroys for an hour, who was there? What was LS doing at 5N from 3:00 to 4:30? An hour and a half is a long time to be that intoxicated and nothing happen. Did she leave and go back to 10th and Cottage where she was seen by the bartender at 3:38? Did she leave back down the alley and lose her ID/keys? Were other calls made? Under this premise, if I try to believe the story from the POIs at 5N, and think about all the information that we may NOT have that could've happened, including interactions with JW.
LE has more information and the answer I believe in finding Lauren, lies in the 'holes' of the general timeline of events/people of the evening.
Just maybe a different angle might help.
I've come to the realization that all that matters is finding her, even if she was my child, I would rather have her back without justice than to not have her back. So the discussion continues to try to uncover a clue or an idea of that happened. So we continue to reassess the night in question, the information we have and the theories.
Most of what we have that has been reported has been relatively true as far as we know. Then, every so often, additional info is leaked out or becomes available through the law suit documents or MSM. So if we have a fairly accurate account of what happened (with the understanding that the POIs testimony is still in question), and since that night we have added to that general timeline of events, but not really modified it, then that leads me to believe that we have a general idea of the facts, but we are missing what is in between....as opposed to what we know being completely false.
So under that premise, I too am interested in the 'lags' of time during the evening...what were CR and LS doing at his apt before Kilroys for an hour, who was there? What was LS doing at 5N from 3:00 to 4:30? An hour and a half is a long time to be that intoxicated and nothing happen. Did she leave and go back to 10th and Cottage where she was seen by the bartender at 3:38? Did she leave back down the alley and lose her ID/keys? Were other calls made? Under this premise, if I try to believe the story from the POIs at 5N, and think about all the information that we may NOT have that could've happened, including interactions with JW.
LE has more information and the answer I believe in finding Lauren, lies in the 'holes' of the general timeline of events/people of the evening.
Just maybe a different angle might help.
Ixchel13
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ABBEYR:Yes people panic and do crazy things.
They could have a sample(s) this way: We know tiers, or layers of people around the main players were interviewed.
We don't know how hard LE came at these people, or what LE
"had" on these people. If there was a drug brought to town and purchased by any number of these people, LE could ask them for a sample and they could be on their way.
There was something taken out of Lauren's room, I believe it was a packet of white powder. IIRC, her room was cordoned off as a crime scene even though she supposedly never made it back in there.
For all we know, POIs could have given up a sample.
IMO, they probs have it, sample(s).
Of courseu it's specu lation, how could I possibly know for sure or have a link saying they do?
They could have a sample(s) this way: We know tiers, or layers of people around the main players were interviewed.
We don't know how hard LE came at these people, or what LE
"had" on these people. If there was a drug brought to town and purchased by any number of these people, LE could ask them for a sample and they could be on their way.
There was something taken out of Lauren's room, I believe it was a packet of white powder. IIRC, her room was cordoned off as a crime scene even though she supposedly never made it back in there.
For all we know, POIs could have given up a sample.
IMO, they probs have it, sample(s).
Of courseu it's specu lation, how could I possibly know for sure or have a link saying they do?
Yeah, somehow I doubt that if police went around asking for a sample of illegal drugs they'd have much luck. JMO If they knew that Lauren had died of an overdose, there would be reason to investigate who had directly supplied her with drugs, but beyond that I'm not sure what relevance the 'drug dna' would have.
[Edited to add:]
Good post, LTT. I would just note that LE have stated that the 3:38 time reported by Gatto that the witness saw Lauren was not accurate. They stated (or implied, depending on how you interpret it) that this encounter happened almost an hour earlier, which matches the timeline described by the private investigators (who interviewed the same witness) and published in MSM. The timing of the people seeing the keys in the alley also suggests that Lauren must have dropped them on the way to 5 N not on the way home.
Anyway, I agree with you about the 'holes' in what we know. I wish we could fill them in. I especially think that the 3am -4 am hole is key here, as this is the time when the stories start having contradictions and the statements from the POI at 5 N just don't ring true (IMO), raising serious questions about what happened in the final hour that Lauren was last seen.
I too suspect that LE has more information, particularly about the people/ cars on the road that night*. My feeling is that this would be a major piece of the puzzle, but one that may not lead anywhere until Lauren is found as it wouldn't be enough for an arrest. It's too bad this isn't known. Imagine how significant it would be to our understanding of this case if we knew that a car belonging to one of the POI was seen on the road at 4 am (and I'm including here, the POI at 5 N, JW and people like DM) -- Conversely, knowing definitively that their cars were never driven that night would basically clear them, IMO.
*I waver between thinking that LE must have this information because of all of the cameras in the area, and thinking that we might have too much confidence in technology and possibly the investigation. Does the fact that the white truck was caught on camera twice give hope that other vehicles must have been captured on video too? Does the fact that LE only asked for public assistance on this one vehicle suggest that others were identified? Or does it mean that LE had such limited info that the white truck was the only vehicle they could follow up on? If other cars were captured by the same cameras, why didn't they figure out right away that the truck didn't circle the block? All these questions have been asked, of course... just rambling thoughts for the day.
[Edited to add:]
Good post, LTT. I would just note that LE have stated that the 3:38 time reported by Gatto that the witness saw Lauren was not accurate. They stated (or implied, depending on how you interpret it) that this encounter happened almost an hour earlier, which matches the timeline described by the private investigators (who interviewed the same witness) and published in MSM. The timing of the people seeing the keys in the alley also suggests that Lauren must have dropped them on the way to 5 N not on the way home.
Anyway, I agree with you about the 'holes' in what we know. I wish we could fill them in. I especially think that the 3am -4 am hole is key here, as this is the time when the stories start having contradictions and the statements from the POI at 5 N just don't ring true (IMO), raising serious questions about what happened in the final hour that Lauren was last seen.
I too suspect that LE has more information, particularly about the people/ cars on the road that night*. My feeling is that this would be a major piece of the puzzle, but one that may not lead anywhere until Lauren is found as it wouldn't be enough for an arrest. It's too bad this isn't known. Imagine how significant it would be to our understanding of this case if we knew that a car belonging to one of the POI was seen on the road at 4 am (and I'm including here, the POI at 5 N, JW and people like DM) -- Conversely, knowing definitively that their cars were never driven that night would basically clear them, IMO.
*I waver between thinking that LE must have this information because of all of the cameras in the area, and thinking that we might have too much confidence in technology and possibly the investigation. Does the fact that the white truck was caught on camera twice give hope that other vehicles must have been captured on video too? Does the fact that LE only asked for public assistance on this one vehicle suggest that others were identified? Or does it mean that LE had such limited info that the white truck was the only vehicle they could follow up on? If other cars were captured by the same cameras, why didn't they figure out right away that the truck didn't circle the block? All these questions have been asked, of course... just rambling thoughts for the day.
carlarae341
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What if there is only ONE guilty of doing away with Lauren? None of the others know what happened to her. Aside from the obvious partying that went on that night, who would you bet on to have witnessed her actual death and to have done away with her body all alone?
I tend to lean toward Bleznak....I always have.
I tend to lean toward Bleznak....I always have.
Why? Because he is the one we know the least about?
If he had done something to Lauren, why would JR claim to be the last to see her and totally cover for him? Why would JR be the one to immediately hire a high profile team of defence lawyers and leave town? Why, in their numerous public statements, would the Spierers and the private investigators never mention DB at all, never include him in the narrative of her disappearance and never put any kind of public pressure on him (like asking him to take an LE polygraph, etc.) the way they have for JR, CR and MB?
Ixchel13
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all three are $20,000 questions. Why indeed?
Gotta be a reason. It's like, why did they not arrest Mark Sievers the second the accomplices confessed?
If DB is the big fish, they need to pressure the other fish into talking?
Guy's dad owns half of downtown Ann Arbor
and they wouldn't be able to schlep him into a corner.
IMO. DB is a POI. and the 700 pound gorilla in the room.
I have wondered if JR might have implied that LS was alone when she left when he actually knew the identity of her escort.
It does not make sense that he would call people in the middle of the night to see if one of them would take her home, then decide against walking her home himself, unless one of his guests (and I think DB was not necessarily the only one) offered to walk her home.
Ixchel13
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yes and if he called that person, maybe that's who he saw
"intercepting" Lauren at the corner.
We can't just glide by the fact that there were 10 persons of interest. We can't gloss that over and continue on our way.
We can't invent reasons why they aren't mentioned. We can assume there's a reason they were named, and a reason they're still there.
The old chestnut that LE just decided to let the other unnamed POIs fade a way and they're not suspects anymore
is either wishful thinking, or not thinking at all.
Someone(s) else is on the radar, and in tandem, with the other POIs. IMO JMO MOO IMHO
Maybe JR doesn't know where he was or that he left the apartment?
So he's not covering for him intentionally in that case. Or how do we know he didn't implicate him in some way and LE is staying silent on it? Why can we assume we know everything that is in statements to the police?
Because as the last one to see a missing person, and with the actions of the night, he'd know he'd be a prime suspect?
Why indeed?
In fact, it's actually odd that they don't. How does DB get a pass like that? They can't possibly know more about his whereabouts and actions as the others from that night can they?
The parents made up their minds about what happened and steered the initial narrative and much of the media to begin with. Perhaps that was to a fault and has actually hurt getting to the bottom of the case. It doesn't seem to have helped.
I have always wondered if DB slipped under the radar at the onset because he was covered for somehow. Then again, there was that weird Runcible Spoon tweet. But if we are to assume that all the 5N POIs were involved somehow, in either causing LS' disappearance or at least knowing about it, I can only think that roles were informally assigned and played to some degree. I don't necessarily believe it went down this way, just that you have a guy who was home doing homework (or not), a guy who can't remember what went down all night (or not), and a guy who saw LS last and let her walk (or not). And then you have DB, who was allegedly there when LS arrived at JR's (or not) and later had breakfast at the RS (according to his tweet). I don't remember exactly when we learned of DB, but I don't believe it was at the early onset of LS' disappearance.
Also, I do believe that JR's family might have had something to do with getting him such early representation. I'm pretty sure that there are counselors of law in his family tree, which might be one factor. Or maybe he requested it, being the last one to see LS that night (or not).
I've always been interested in DB and do think that he's one of the ten (correct?) people LE has/had on their radar. But then again, we really don't know as LE hasn't shared. I also think that he and JR are kind of like MB and CR, i.e., some form of loyalty might exist that could have influenced who said or didn't say what. This might not even just be about LE's disappearance but whatever else happened earlier in the night that lead up to it (drugs, etc.). Sometimes I think that these kids (at the time) had no idea that this case would snowball the way it did. Other times I think they deliberately tried to cover their tracks, for whatever reason. JMO.
Also, I do believe that JR's family might have had something to do with getting him such early representation. I'm pretty sure that there are counselors of law in his family tree, which might be one factor. Or maybe he requested it, being the last one to see LS that night (or not).
I've always been interested in DB and do think that he's one of the ten (correct?) people LE has/had on their radar. But then again, we really don't know as LE hasn't shared. I also think that he and JR are kind of like MB and CR, i.e., some form of loyalty might exist that could have influenced who said or didn't say what. This might not even just be about LE's disappearance but whatever else happened earlier in the night that lead up to it (drugs, etc.). Sometimes I think that these kids (at the time) had no idea that this case would snowball the way it did. Other times I think they deliberately tried to cover their tracks, for whatever reason. JMO.
As I recall, the PIs said that neither call was answered. One was to DR and the other was to an unnamed male friend. If I am wrong, please let me know.
Ixchel13
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I get censored all the time for saying someone called or I was going to call them when it was really texting. Young people just don't call that much, they text and at all hours of the night and morning, will wake up, read a text and go back to sleep, etc...I've seen this in action and constantly.
LE says calls were made. And not answered. They said nothing about texts either way. What isn't said could still be true.
CR must have had a phone! What was on it? Has anyone asked?
CR must have been calling ZCs apt. I believe we determined that she lived at 10th and V. To get in there, you need a key, and then there aren't buzzers, you can just walk to your apt.
And each section of small rows of townhouses are sectioned off from the inside, so people can't just roam around all the way through.
Ma Houston posted pictures of the top of those stairs iirc. You can go up to the second floor, but you need a key to get into the hall.
All this to say, if Lauren didn't have her phone, someone had to call up to someone, ZC, to let them in.
IMO, they first went up to 10th and College apts and tried to buzz someone, who wouldn't answer so they came out from there and sat on the steps, got back up and went up the alley a bit and turned into the 10th and V courtyard and tried to get into ZCs apt there.
IMO, the parties had moved from the altercation over to 10th and C AND V, and possibly still a flow of people between them,
ZO lived at 10th and C; ZC and 10th and V. ZC had 3 roomies; and ZO at least 2. JR had a guest in town.. Can we speculate
HT was around there somewhere. 6 girls counting Lauren. If you add the bar witness, because I think she was around there somehow, that's 7 women that we know of.
HT talks to all the media and she never says where she was, like, "I drank wine and then went to bed, etc, and didn't hear
if Lauren came home," etc yet she goes on and on about Jesse Wolff.
ZC says it's really regretful that she didn't answer Laurens "call" but goes on and on about how wonderful JR and CR are.
And how innocent they are. And she does say she witnessed Lauren drinking shots and iirc doesn't say anyone else was?
Someone tell me where I'm going with this.
We don't assume we know anything about his statements to police, but we do know quite a bit of what was told to others and to the private investigators. He claims to be the last to see Lauren.
I don't think they 'steered the narrative'. I think they went public with what was known and what was happening with the POI. I would say that most of the 'narrative', if there is one, came from the actions and statements from the POI themselves. The only person who I would accuse of steering public opinion with speculation and unsupported facts would be Tony Gatto.
I agree about Tony Gatto, but I also think JW's parents contributed by making statements about LS that were intended to make JW look better and LS look worse. I personally think that backfired. I myself actually questioned JW involvement more after that one article. While his behavior did seem strange in some aspects (leaving Bloomington so quickly, etc.), his parents' behavior seemed even stranger to me. JMO.
No, it's still assumptions. Assumptions that memories and reporting were correct and accurate, and repeated truthfully and without bias (either direction). We're really talking about hearsay and there's a reason that, with narrow exceptions, hearsay is not used in court.
Where we haven't heard from the person(s) directly, we're really just left with assumptions about accuracy. And it's two levels deep- The accuracy of the person in retelling what they were told and what they thought they heard, and the accuracy in the reporter in understanding it and properly relaying that information.
We already know that JR and CR's names and roles were confused in early reporting, among other issues, so there's no reason to assume that was the end of reporting mistakes.
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