My theory, I think, but regardless, I don't find it that huge a stretch. It might have not been LS' intention but CR's. I think it's very possible that he wanted to get her totally out of it so he could score. Or maybe he just didn't want to stop getting high. Some people don't know when or how to stop. Quite honestly, he could have been leading LS from place to place based on his own misguided intentions!
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34
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My theory, I think, but regardless, I don't find it that huge a stretch. It might have not been LS' intention but CR's. I think it's very possible that he wanted to get her totally out of it so he could score. Or maybe he just didn't want to stop getting high. Some people don't know when or how to stop. Quite honestly, he could have been leading LS from place to place based on his own misguided intentions!
Ixchel13
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obviously respecting your opinion. however if CRs intentions
were just to get Lauren out of it to score, he had his chance right there before they left to go back to Kilroys. ZC has conveniently witnessed that Lauren had already done shots
and DR stated that he did crushed up xxanax with her. So,
he already had Lauren at his apt., and she was intoxicated. But it was CR who wanted to go get "3 or 4 more drinks"
at Kilroys.
What man out to score with a woman disrupts his perfect chance for a few more drinks? By leaving, and going back out, he leaves them open for exactly what did happen--interference with his so-called plan to score.
No, IMO, a man will always go for the sure thing when it comes to that. No offense guys.
CR was willfully being a break-up guy in a tightly knit circle
that he did not belong to, and was getting wasted with Lauren
in front of them. She did not ask anyone for help getting away from him and had several opportunities. Was he taking advantage of her? IMO, yes, but it does not seem like he was
being criminal. oops have to go more later. But yeak akh not arguing
Just wanted to mention something regarding JW's alibi or lack thereof- most people don't have alibis for 2-4am, and it may be more suspicious if he had an elaborate documented alibi for that time period.
I'll try to use myself as an example: last night at 2am I was in bed. I was the last one in my house to go to sleep, so everyone may assume I went to bed, but can't actually verify I was sleeping during that time period, as they themselves were asleep. This scenario would put me in a position where I'd be unable to be cleared by alibi, but it also doesn't make me guilty of the crime. This is a the situation I see JW in, and why he can't be cleared.
I tend to believe JW wasn't involved because if he was, or even if there was the slightest suspicion he was, 5N and lawyers would have pointed fingers ASAP. I'm open to other outcomes, but I feel 5N is involved in this at the very core. I do admit, JW's actions are somewhat suspect to me, and his mother's comments were appalling. I don't find his actions, however, anymore suspect that JR and MB's stories/actions. The difference is JW placed himself in bed, while JR and MB placed themselves with Lauren.
Like I said, I believe that 5N has the blame here, but the one thing that stops me from putting the blame 100 percent on them is the altercation with ZO and CR. I can't wrap my mind around the chances of that altercation happening and JW not finding out about it. I also don't believe JW didn't know Lauren was out with CR. Based on those assumptions, the likelihood of him going to sleep aren't great IMO.
That being said, JW being involved in Lauren's demise doesn't explain MB and JR's stories, UNLESS Lauren was sober enough to walk from JR's, and JW somehow intercepted her along the way or at her apartment. I can't see another way JW fits in directly, but would be happy to hear other opinions on how he does. As for whether he knows more than he's letting on, I think he has a good idea of what happened to Lauren, but I'm doubtful he has anything directly incriminating- otherwise why cover for the person- why not clear yourself?
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I'll try to use myself as an example: last night at 2am I was in bed. I was the last one in my house to go to sleep, so everyone may assume I went to bed, but can't actually verify I was sleeping during that time period, as they themselves were asleep. This scenario would put me in a position where I'd be unable to be cleared by alibi, but it also doesn't make me guilty of the crime. This is a the situation I see JW in, and why he can't be cleared.
I tend to believe JW wasn't involved because if he was, or even if there was the slightest suspicion he was, 5N and lawyers would have pointed fingers ASAP. I'm open to other outcomes, but I feel 5N is involved in this at the very core. I do admit, JW's actions are somewhat suspect to me, and his mother's comments were appalling. I don't find his actions, however, anymore suspect that JR and MB's stories/actions. The difference is JW placed himself in bed, while JR and MB placed themselves with Lauren.
Like I said, I believe that 5N has the blame here, but the one thing that stops me from putting the blame 100 percent on them is the altercation with ZO and CR. I can't wrap my mind around the chances of that altercation happening and JW not finding out about it. I also don't believe JW didn't know Lauren was out with CR. Based on those assumptions, the likelihood of him going to sleep aren't great IMO.
That being said, JW being involved in Lauren's demise doesn't explain MB and JR's stories, UNLESS Lauren was sober enough to walk from JR's, and JW somehow intercepted her along the way or at her apartment. I can't see another way JW fits in directly, but would be happy to hear other opinions on how he does. As for whether he knows more than he's letting on, I think he has a good idea of what happened to Lauren, but I'm doubtful he has anything directly incriminating- otherwise why cover for the person- why not clear yourself?
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And there was also JW's Facebook post with the quote from the movie Major Payne about an "urge to kill."
Ixchel13
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When I was posting about CR having his perfect chance to score I wasn't being disrespectful to Lauren, just the opposite.
If we dust off our timeline, to Lauren being at SW partying with HT, who describes it as "having some wine and watching the game."
Now we've seen the photo of HT with a Xanax on her tongue and the vodka bottle next to her, she's either taking a selfie or sticking out her tongue so the xanax can be seen.
So I'm going to be a meanie and say she's lying about the mellow wine party! And say they were probably partying HT style, and this is when Lauren and DR did some crushed up Xanax.
Now, wonder if this is the party ZC says she saw Lauren doing shots?
So, Lauren and DR leave this party and go up to JRs around 12:30. But JR is out of booze.
THEN, Lauren and CR go next door to CRs and MB apt with someone else...can't remember who... for almost an hour before leaving for Kilroys.
THIS is what I'm talking about. If CR wanted to make a move on Lauren, and she wanted him to, this was the time, this was the place.
Maybe he did, and she refused, for whatever reason, but it wasn't an angry refusal, they still went back out, and CR says it was because HE wanted a few more drinks. Yes, Akh, you're right, some people don't know when to stop.
And I'm thinking that Lauren must have had every intention of going home after those drinks, because that is exactly what she did. But why the hurry, even when intoxicated these girls are glued to their phones--why did she leave so quickly w/o her shoes and phone--was someone on their way, did someone threaten LS and CR right there at Kilroys?
Hope no one thinks I'm lionizing this jerk, he knew Lauren was in a sticky situation and was pushing the envelope and maybe even hoping to still score.
But if he were absolutely dedicated to scoring, he never would have suggested going back out. More like he was just going to keep on letting this evening ride.
For some reason, and there has to be a good one, this group is not framing him. They definitely could except for MB is adamantly insisting that he was passed out in bed during the whole end of the evening, i.e. during all of Lauren's demise.
But not just for then, but for 15 minutes before they left Kilroys, the altercation, and the arduous trip back up to 5N, the stopping off at 10th and C, all of it.
So he doesn't remember who was at Kilroys, who was at the altyercation, even who punched him, who they were trying to reach at ZCs apt, if anyone was following them up to 5N, and
he doesn't remember passing out.
So that means during this time, he can't remember being threatened, who did the threatening, etc.
Because it was most likely happening.
Steph, it's not just that when you go to bed you don't have an alibi. The PIs have said that JW was not where he said he was.
He's not just a POI because of that. Obviously, bf is always a suspect, but LE has an invisible list of things the bf says and things he does that they use to determine if he's a suspect, and, JW did not pass.
And his mama didn't help. Nor did his dad by inserting himself into the investigation and allowing us to talk about him.
IMO, it could have been an organized hounding of lauren until she managed to stagger out of JRs and meet her fate.
And the guilt and lying could be that they know that if not for them, she would still be alive. They know they caused her death.
speculation.
If we dust off our timeline, to Lauren being at SW partying with HT, who describes it as "having some wine and watching the game."
Now we've seen the photo of HT with a Xanax on her tongue and the vodka bottle next to her, she's either taking a selfie or sticking out her tongue so the xanax can be seen.
So I'm going to be a meanie and say she's lying about the mellow wine party! And say they were probably partying HT style, and this is when Lauren and DR did some crushed up Xanax.
Now, wonder if this is the party ZC says she saw Lauren doing shots?
So, Lauren and DR leave this party and go up to JRs around 12:30. But JR is out of booze.
THEN, Lauren and CR go next door to CRs and MB apt with someone else...can't remember who... for almost an hour before leaving for Kilroys.
THIS is what I'm talking about. If CR wanted to make a move on Lauren, and she wanted him to, this was the time, this was the place.
Maybe he did, and she refused, for whatever reason, but it wasn't an angry refusal, they still went back out, and CR says it was because HE wanted a few more drinks. Yes, Akh, you're right, some people don't know when to stop.
And I'm thinking that Lauren must have had every intention of going home after those drinks, because that is exactly what she did. But why the hurry, even when intoxicated these girls are glued to their phones--why did she leave so quickly w/o her shoes and phone--was someone on their way, did someone threaten LS and CR right there at Kilroys?
Hope no one thinks I'm lionizing this jerk, he knew Lauren was in a sticky situation and was pushing the envelope and maybe even hoping to still score.
But if he were absolutely dedicated to scoring, he never would have suggested going back out. More like he was just going to keep on letting this evening ride.
For some reason, and there has to be a good one, this group is not framing him. They definitely could except for MB is adamantly insisting that he was passed out in bed during the whole end of the evening, i.e. during all of Lauren's demise.
But not just for then, but for 15 minutes before they left Kilroys, the altercation, and the arduous trip back up to 5N, the stopping off at 10th and C, all of it.
So he doesn't remember who was at Kilroys, who was at the altyercation, even who punched him, who they were trying to reach at ZCs apt, if anyone was following them up to 5N, and
he doesn't remember passing out.
So that means during this time, he can't remember being threatened, who did the threatening, etc.
Because it was most likely happening.
Steph, it's not just that when you go to bed you don't have an alibi. The PIs have said that JW was not where he said he was.
He's not just a POI because of that. Obviously, bf is always a suspect, but LE has an invisible list of things the bf says and things he does that they use to determine if he's a suspect, and, JW did not pass.
And his mama didn't help. Nor did his dad by inserting himself into the investigation and allowing us to talk about him.
IMO, it could have been an organized hounding of lauren until she managed to stagger out of JRs and meet her fate.
And the guilt and lying could be that they know that if not for them, she would still be alive. They know they caused her death.
speculation.
Maybe one who is unsuccessful and needs to get his target more intoxicated? After all, the reports say that at the bar, he wasn't just having a few drinks for himself, he was seen buying drinks for Lauren and 'helping her' drink them, until she was so wasted she couldn't walk.
He was also described as acting aggressively and innapropriately towards Lauren.
Alcohol is the #1 date rape drug.
Ibiz
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I didn't see those reports. Do you have a link?
But you could probably ask this same question of JR. How did he factor into the equation such that he not only inserts himself as last to see her, but alibis the others and puts himself deeper into the crosshairs? She was with CR afterall, and the theories tend to implicate CR and disbelieve his going to bed and amnesia.
But to your point about JW's alibi isn't much different than anyone's would be at that time of night so shouldn't arouse suspicion, that is true. But I think the point is that his alibi isn't solid (at least how it has been reported publicly) and so it doesn't clear him. Then it's the rest of the puzzle that makes him suspicious. Not the alibi itself. It's just that it does nothing to help him.
I think if the boyfriend was involved it would simply be a scenario like this: Either he suspects LS is out with someone, possibly with CR (based on knowledge of their meeting at the Indy 500 and possibly other signs), or else he knows she's out with CR based on someone telling him. So, she doesn't answer her phone or call. Doesn't text. He thinks she's ignoring him. So he decides to stalk her. Either to confront her or else to gather evidence against and maybe try and catch her in a lie ("What did you do last night?" fully knowing exactly where she was and when she left because he was spying but wanting to see if she'd lie). Or maybe he simply went looking for her with some idea of the area he'd find her. So whether the plan was merely to watch for her or to confront her, it all could've changed when he saw her. And so he snaps. Same as has happened many other times in these jealous BF or husband stories that don't end well.
No conspiracy necessary. Just him and her.
If he's involved, that's how I think it probably played out.
Ixchel13
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Yes I agree, as I said it above that he could have been still hoping but had Lauren truly been ready to take it a step further, he had the perfect time and place.
In the way way distant past, when I was young and had met someone I was attracted to, and we had already socialized and were out again another time, and we found ourselves alone, finally, I didn't think, hey, let's go back out, the bars
are almost closed but if we hurry we can get a few more drinks!
At least, there doesn't seem to be a huge attraction there.
Lauren was not hiding an affair. If CR was attracted to her, that in itself is not a crime, even if he was flirting with her,
trying to kiss her. etc.
To ZO and ****s, seeing BMOC JW's girlfriend kissing another man might have seemed inappropriate. So they assaulted him and knocked him down.
Did Lauren have the right to be inappropriate? She was over 18, in her own place of residence on her floor near her door.
If she were going to invite him in, again, to these violent ****s, that may have seemed "inappropriate," is it because in their addled little brains and culture, she "belonged" to their buddy?
So in their twisted way of looking at things, they were "helping" Lauren by knocking her date out and leaving her distraught, confused, and why if they were "helping" didn't they call one of her roomies?
Or was it that a roomie had already enlisted him to make sure CR didn't get in the apt?
Did Lauren feel betrayed by her friends?
People talk about how out of it she seemed at the altercation.
But she must have been upset, and she must have known what was happening, but she was ambushed and intoxicated.
She was a victim at SW before she was in a more dangerous situation . IMO, the people pursuing her didn't think she would, or even could, leave SW.
IMO, she didn't leave the "safety" of her apt because she wanted to be with CR, but that she didn't feel safe at SW.
Like she left Kilroys and forgot her phone, she fled her apt
building not to get away to, but to get away from.
If JW is involved, it's not a planned conspiracy as much as info coming in on his phone, a spontaneous, copious amount
of info sent by "well meaning" friends to let him know he was
being cuckholded when it probably wasn't even the case.
The situation, fuelled by alcohol and drugs, took shape.
Hundreds of posts ago I asked, did they get caught up in a terrible game only to have Lauren get away at the end and get hurt by someone else?
Hundreds of posts ago we exchanged stories we have heard from LE about the unbelievable ways people who should have been dead, have been left for dead, all kinds of
catastrophic ways and they somehow leave the scene and
are found elsewhere.
We see that simple story. We say she couldn't leave. What if the only true thing is that she left? What happened before and after she left is made up.
CRs crime is that he is lying about the amnesia and protecting
the people who were IMO following them and took over when he passed out. The burglars? IMO
agree akh that if JW is involved, it is in a scenario like you laid out. my problem w. it is that it means we would have to presume that she left JR's on her own accord, to be confronted by JW, who was stalking her. The problem I have w. that scenario is not that I don't believe he'd be angry enough to stalk her, but that I don't see her being in a condition to leave JR's on her own. I don't see someone going from falling onto the pavement and hitting their head, w.o even attempting to break their fall to passing a sobriety test in less than two hours. CR was seen having to carry Lauren, who was falling repeatedly and unable to walk...I just can't see her "wanting to party" like MB originally suggested, and then leaving JR's on her own, passing sobriety tests. It just doesn't make sense. JR's own stories don't make sense- he says she had a black eye but didn't know how she got it, and that she thought his iPod was a phone, yet she's sober enough to leave on her own? I don't know, their stories are just way too unbelievable, IMO.
As for why JR inserted himself into the scenario as the last person to see Lauren, and essentially gave CR a pass by allowing him to claim amnesia and pass out, IMO it is because he had to, for whatever reason. JR talking is essential to solving this case, IMO. CR was bound to be a POI as the last person to see her as was JW because he was her boyfriend, and to a lesser extent MB, as he was CR's roommate. Yet none of these people have placed themselves as the last person to see Lauren alive, but JR has. I just can't see a reason why he would put himself in that position unless something forced him to...CR is the last person we can verify Lauren was with, and that should have made him the #1 POI, why would JR even need to involve himself in the first place? If he and MB are telling the truth, why have their stories changed? I don't know, I just can't see a scenario where JR isn't in some way involved.
Also, I don't buy that the reason Lauren left her shoes and phone at the bar were because she was being chased out. IMO, it's way more likely she left them because she was so intoxicated. Also, CR was punched in the face and knocked to the ground, as well as being intoxicated, so it's possible he isn't faking his amnesia at all. I tend to think he knows more than he is letting on, but if he's lying about it to protect anyone, it's to protect MB and JR, and probably to some extent himself, IMO. Why would CR protect people who were following him and Lauren?
As for why JR inserted himself into the scenario as the last person to see Lauren, and essentially gave CR a pass by allowing him to claim amnesia and pass out, IMO it is because he had to, for whatever reason. JR talking is essential to solving this case, IMO. CR was bound to be a POI as the last person to see her as was JW because he was her boyfriend, and to a lesser extent MB, as he was CR's roommate. Yet none of these people have placed themselves as the last person to see Lauren alive, but JR has. I just can't see a reason why he would put himself in that position unless something forced him to...CR is the last person we can verify Lauren was with, and that should have made him the #1 POI, why would JR even need to involve himself in the first place? If he and MB are telling the truth, why have their stories changed? I don't know, I just can't see a scenario where JR isn't in some way involved.
Also, I don't buy that the reason Lauren left her shoes and phone at the bar were because she was being chased out. IMO, it's way more likely she left them because she was so intoxicated. Also, CR was punched in the face and knocked to the ground, as well as being intoxicated, so it's possible he isn't faking his amnesia at all. I tend to think he knows more than he is letting on, but if he's lying about it to protect anyone, it's to protect MB and JR, and probably to some extent himself, IMO. Why would CR protect people who were following him and Lauren?
I agree about the shoes and phone at the bar. At least I think that's easily possible they were all left due to intoxication and not necessarily due to being chased off or kicked out of the bar.
The question mark there is, we really don't have anything to solidly say those interpretations we've read are actually the facts in evidence, or even if that's really what was said or seen in the first place and that we aren't getting embellishments on 2nd and 3rd hand information.
We've not heard directly from those witnesses. And really, the closest to the case that we have heard from in any depth, the PI's, didn't actually "go there" in their telling of the narrative. IIRC they had her being carried but didn't necessarily attribute it to being incoherent or being totally 'out of it'. They had the infamous comment about being carried that she was "...alive and well".... then backed it up a bit and said she "was alive (but didn't know how well)".
To say that she was alive at that point, regardless of what he meant by the added caveat of not knowing how well, must mean that it was clear she was moving and/or an active participant in being carried. If she was limp then I don't see how he could say she was alive at that point.
The other issue is the bad reporting we've seen. And the lack of any knowledge of truly what was told to the police or PI's from moment 1 or hearing from 5N directly much at all. So I can't say that what we've seen reported and rumored is 100% accurate and not some version of the 'phone game' to say that their stories have changed in the first place. Nothing is so obviously contradictory to say it couldn't have been misreported or misunderstood down the line.
So that is why I don't immediately think they HAVE to be guilty. Not that any of those possibilities means they aren't guilty either. We're just operating on some extremely limited information with even less being actually confirmed.
Maybe he's just telling the truth?
I don't get hung up on the sobriety test because, if true, I doubt it was a full-fledged set of Field Sobriety Tests looking to make sure she could fool police that she'd not been drinking.. Nor seeing if she could do cartwheels and recite the alphabet backwards. It was probably just making sure she could at least stagger and stay upright without something to hold onto. And it may be embellished or assumed what he meant by mentioning testing of her sobriety anyway, considering we haven't heard his own words about it. Heck, he might not even have said it like that at all.
There's just so little factual and confirmed information about what really was said on the record.
And one thing in the favor of 5N is if something happened there as the theories suggest, then LE had a "ground zero" to look for forensic evidence and be able to use it as leverage. If they found any forensic evidence it's apparently nothing they could use for leverage. Of course this isn't CSI.....
This is more playing devil's advocate.
I still consider JW, 5N, and now DM to all be about equal in suspicion based on what we know publicly. I might even give the nudge to DM simply because, from the outside looking in, he fits the profile and seems to fit the bill as someone that would seek out and kill a college student in Bloomington, IN (since it's all but certain he's already done just that) -and- apparently operate in that same area. And if he wasn't involved, LE will need to prove it definitively, because any good defense attorney in any future arrests will be sure to try and point the jury that direction.
The question mark there is, we really don't have anything to solidly say those interpretations we've read are actually the facts in evidence, or even if that's really what was said or seen in the first place and that we aren't getting embellishments on 2nd and 3rd hand information.
We've not heard directly from those witnesses. And really, the closest to the case that we have heard from in any depth, the PI's, didn't actually "go there" in their telling of the narrative. IIRC they had her being carried but didn't necessarily attribute it to being incoherent or being totally 'out of it'. They had the infamous comment about being carried that she was "...alive and well".... then backed it up a bit and said she "was alive (but didn't know how well)".
To say that she was alive at that point, regardless of what he meant by the added caveat of not knowing how well, must mean that it was clear she was moving and/or an active participant in being carried. If she was limp then I don't see how he could say she was alive at that point.
The other issue is the bad reporting we've seen. And the lack of any knowledge of truly what was told to the police or PI's from moment 1 or hearing from 5N directly much at all. So I can't say that what we've seen reported and rumored is 100% accurate and not some version of the 'phone game' to say that their stories have changed in the first place. Nothing is so obviously contradictory to say it couldn't have been misreported or misunderstood down the line.
So that is why I don't immediately think they HAVE to be guilty. Not that any of those possibilities means they aren't guilty either. We're just operating on some extremely limited information with even less being actually confirmed.
Maybe he's just telling the truth?
I don't get hung up on the sobriety test because, if true, I doubt it was a full-fledged set of Field Sobriety Tests looking to make sure she could fool police that she'd not been drinking.. Nor seeing if she could do cartwheels and recite the alphabet backwards. It was probably just making sure she could at least stagger and stay upright without something to hold onto. And it may be embellished or assumed what he meant by mentioning testing of her sobriety anyway, considering we haven't heard his own words about it. Heck, he might not even have said it like that at all.
There's just so little factual and confirmed information about what really was said on the record.
And one thing in the favor of 5N is if something happened there as the theories suggest, then LE had a "ground zero" to look for forensic evidence and be able to use it as leverage. If they found any forensic evidence it's apparently nothing they could use for leverage. Of course this isn't CSI.....
This is more playing devil's advocate.
I still consider JW, 5N, and now DM to all be about equal in suspicion based on what we know publicly. I might even give the nudge to DM simply because, from the outside looking in, he fits the profile and seems to fit the bill as someone that would seek out and kill a college student in Bloomington, IN (since it's all but certain he's already done just that) -and- apparently operate in that same area. And if he wasn't involved, LE will need to prove it definitively, because any good defense attorney in any future arrests will be sure to try and point the jury that direction.
The part about Corey buying Lauren drinks and helping her drink them and her not being able to walk on her own when leaving the bar is described in the lawsuit docs, which state that there are multiple witnesses. The document is posted in the media/articles thread.
There were two articles early on that had quotes from witnesses saying that Corey was acting inappropriately and aggressively and bothering Lauren. They were quoted a bunch of times here, probably in thread 1.
I don't believe, as Ix does, that ZO and friends confronted Corey because of anything to do with JW. ZO and JW weren't even friends. I believe what they said: they saw a very intoxicated girl who needed to be brought home, and thought the situation with Corey was concerning. After all, a random person on the street also stopped them out of concern for Lauren.
Think of how many drunk people are walking home from bars every night. The situation must have been pretty bad to be immediately concerning to several unrelated people. I believe this is also why she was reported missing so quickly and why the overdose rumours started almost immediately. Every witness we know of who saw her at kilroys on describes her being somewhere between intoxicated to incapacitated, and the report of the surveillance video reinforces these accounts.
It should go without saying that a person who can't walk or speak coherently cannot consent to anything, so framing the situation as Lauren getting together with Corey, when he was literally dragging her home at 3 am, is inappropriate, IMO Who knows what Lauren would have done if she was sober, but that's not relevant.
ETA
With the exception of the kind of crime that leaves a bloody crime scene, what possible forensic evidence could they find that would give them leverage, in the absence of a body? Even in cases where cadaver dogs have picked up a scent in a suspect's home, this is not enough evidence for police to do anything. Not to mention that the search of 5N (at least the one with dogs) happened a month after Lauren went missing.
Ixchel13
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New York Post, 06/09/2011
Students who encountered Spierer, 20, and her pal -- identified by friends as Corey Rossman -- leaving the building told The Post that she was drunk, he was bothering her and that he got angry when they asked him to stop.
"He was being overly aggressive . . . being so belligerent," one said.
http://nypost.com/2011/06/09/male-pa...#ixzz1glXIIUqB
^^^this link is not valid^^^^^as so many aren't
Yes Abbey, on this point we totally disagree: I do not feel that ZO was trying to help Lauren whatsoever.
Both ZO and the person he violently assaulted (CR) were on the banned list from SW. Read, neither one of them was even supposed to be there.
How hard did he hit CR? This wasn't just a punch, he hit him so hard it knocked him down and out. Makes one wonder....was it a punch from behind? At any rate, CR was intoxicated enough that he didn't see a punch like that coming. You have to ask yourself,
Did Lauren feel like she was being helped? Are people actually going to say that at this point Lauren had no idea what was going on?
Seeing that happen could affect Lauren in ways that we cannot know--panic, fear, anger--and being intoxicated,
could make her unable to speak or a number of other manifestations.
Let's talk about ZO--convicted drug dealer and wannabe gangstah. On his facebook, he portrays himself as a womanizer, posing with his arms around multiple women,
lots and lots of women.
He was known as a person with a volatile temper, prone to fighting, and friends at the time of Laurens disappearance said he was "going through a rough period" whatever that means.
With him were at least 2 accomplices, Vidocq traced at least 1 of them as living on the 3rd floor of SW.
Something tells me that LE got their reports of Lauren's condition from these guys. On camera, they would appear to be the aggressors they in fact were.
Obviously, to keep from getting arrested for criminal trespassing and assault, let alone the fact that they caused a woman to go out from the safety of her apt. to her death, they are going to have to REALLY exaggerate everything.
Yes, Lauren was drunk. Wasn't everybody that night?
Between the shots of booze, the crushed Xanax, the wine,
etc, these people were lit up. They were running back and forth imbibing whatever they got their hands on from the sound of it. Let's not give anyone concerned an exemption
from being drunk. Or high.
But I gotta ask, who gains the most from protraying Lauren
as nearly comatose, unable to think for herself, unable to talk?
Why, to my mind, it's the people who started it all at SW!
Again, I gotta ask, why didn't these people let Lauren enter her apt.? Gotta ask, was HT behind that? Why did she feel the need to jump in the fray as spokesperson for the POI right away? From a wealthy family, I am certain she was also advised by family's counsel. Perhaps she is one of the other 5 POI that have not been named. IMO, that's the case. IMO JMO MOO
It's not that they actually said, "you aren't coming in" but an intoxicated woman was bullied, ambushed and attacked
and regardless of what some people think, she KNEW, she FELT, she DECIDED not to go in. She was not so out of it that she didn't feel panic and confusion!
A roommate might think, hey, it's my apt too, and since I am (overly!) loyal to JW, I'm not going to allow CR in.
In the nuts and bolts of the SW altercation, we will find the
machinery of Lauren's demise--what and who propelled it
and really why.
Lauren was an adult, of age, and it really was NO ONE's biz,
including her erstwhile long termed bf's,WHO she was bringing home.
To say that these little muggers had any right to break up
whatever LS and CR were doing is to put our country back in the time when such violence was ok because a woman was a man's property.
IF, big IF, this drug dealing, persona non grata ZO really wanted to help Lauren, he would have addressed Lauren:
"Are you OK Lauren? Do you need to go to your room?
Is this guy bothering you? because we'll help you get there."
Or even, "Lauren, do you want us to get this guy away from you, and help you to your apt?"
If any of these things were said to LAUREN, I might be able to believe that this little criminal was helping her.
He wasn't helping her, and I can't believe anyone would think he is telling the truth!
Lauren would be alive today if this guy hadn't prevented her from going into her apt. And ANY type of heroism attributed to him is a huge mistake. He is point zero of everything that happened afterwards. Too bad he can't be put in jail for it.
Students who encountered Spierer, 20, and her pal -- identified by friends as Corey Rossman -- leaving the building told The Post that she was drunk, he was bothering her and that he got angry when they asked him to stop.
"He was being overly aggressive . . . being so belligerent," one said.
http://nypost.com/2011/06/09/male-pa...#ixzz1glXIIUqB
^^^this link is not valid^^^^^as so many aren't
Yes Abbey, on this point we totally disagree: I do not feel that ZO was trying to help Lauren whatsoever.
Both ZO and the person he violently assaulted (CR) were on the banned list from SW. Read, neither one of them was even supposed to be there.
How hard did he hit CR? This wasn't just a punch, he hit him so hard it knocked him down and out. Makes one wonder....was it a punch from behind? At any rate, CR was intoxicated enough that he didn't see a punch like that coming. You have to ask yourself,
Did Lauren feel like she was being helped? Are people actually going to say that at this point Lauren had no idea what was going on?
Seeing that happen could affect Lauren in ways that we cannot know--panic, fear, anger--and being intoxicated,
could make her unable to speak or a number of other manifestations.
Let's talk about ZO--convicted drug dealer and wannabe gangstah. On his facebook, he portrays himself as a womanizer, posing with his arms around multiple women,
lots and lots of women.
He was known as a person with a volatile temper, prone to fighting, and friends at the time of Laurens disappearance said he was "going through a rough period" whatever that means.
With him were at least 2 accomplices, Vidocq traced at least 1 of them as living on the 3rd floor of SW.
Something tells me that LE got their reports of Lauren's condition from these guys. On camera, they would appear to be the aggressors they in fact were.
Obviously, to keep from getting arrested for criminal trespassing and assault, let alone the fact that they caused a woman to go out from the safety of her apt. to her death, they are going to have to REALLY exaggerate everything.
Yes, Lauren was drunk. Wasn't everybody that night?
Between the shots of booze, the crushed Xanax, the wine,
etc, these people were lit up. They were running back and forth imbibing whatever they got their hands on from the sound of it. Let's not give anyone concerned an exemption
from being drunk. Or high.
But I gotta ask, who gains the most from protraying Lauren
as nearly comatose, unable to think for herself, unable to talk?
Why, to my mind, it's the people who started it all at SW!
Again, I gotta ask, why didn't these people let Lauren enter her apt.? Gotta ask, was HT behind that? Why did she feel the need to jump in the fray as spokesperson for the POI right away? From a wealthy family, I am certain she was also advised by family's counsel. Perhaps she is one of the other 5 POI that have not been named. IMO, that's the case. IMO JMO MOO
It's not that they actually said, "you aren't coming in" but an intoxicated woman was bullied, ambushed and attacked
and regardless of what some people think, she KNEW, she FELT, she DECIDED not to go in. She was not so out of it that she didn't feel panic and confusion!
A roommate might think, hey, it's my apt too, and since I am (overly!) loyal to JW, I'm not going to allow CR in.
In the nuts and bolts of the SW altercation, we will find the
machinery of Lauren's demise--what and who propelled it
and really why.
Lauren was an adult, of age, and it really was NO ONE's biz,
including her erstwhile long termed bf's,WHO she was bringing home.
To say that these little muggers had any right to break up
whatever LS and CR were doing is to put our country back in the time when such violence was ok because a woman was a man's property.
IF, big IF, this drug dealing, persona non grata ZO really wanted to help Lauren, he would have addressed Lauren:
"Are you OK Lauren? Do you need to go to your room?
Is this guy bothering you? because we'll help you get there."
Or even, "Lauren, do you want us to get this guy away from you, and help you to your apt?"
If any of these things were said to LAUREN, I might be able to believe that this little criminal was helping her.
He wasn't helping her, and I can't believe anyone would think he is telling the truth!
Lauren would be alive today if this guy hadn't prevented her from going into her apt. And ANY type of heroism attributed to him is a huge mistake. He is point zero of everything that happened afterwards. Too bad he can't be put in jail for it.
Ixchel,
Do you have any links to support that information or are you just repeating anonymous rumors posted on the Internet? IIRC, the only person with a drug related charge was Corey Rossman.
It is ridiculous to me to suggest that intervening when someone is intoxicated and 'in distress' (quoted from lawsuit docs) and being dragged around by someone who appears to be 'bothering her', is somehow sexist. Again, a person who is intoxicated cannot consent to anything, so it is not a question of 'choice'. People should, IMO, be encouraged to recognize situations where people are at risk, speak up and get help.
I don't think ZO and friends went about it the right way, but it's not their fault that Lauren went missing, and there's no reason that they would be accountable for anything so have nothing to gain by describing her as intoxicated. She did not flee Smallwood. Corey picked her up off the floor and carried her out of the building and home.
Do you have any links to support that information or are you just repeating anonymous rumors posted on the Internet? IIRC, the only person with a drug related charge was Corey Rossman.
It is ridiculous to me to suggest that intervening when someone is intoxicated and 'in distress' (quoted from lawsuit docs) and being dragged around by someone who appears to be 'bothering her', is somehow sexist. Again, a person who is intoxicated cannot consent to anything, so it is not a question of 'choice'. People should, IMO, be encouraged to recognize situations where people are at risk, speak up and get help.
I don't think ZO and friends went about it the right way, but it's not their fault that Lauren went missing, and there's no reason that they would be accountable for anything so have nothing to gain by describing her as intoxicated. She did not flee Smallwood. Corey picked her up off the floor and carried her out of the building and home.
Ixchel13
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Seriously Abbey, Corey isn't the only one, off the top of my head DR has drug charges. Many, many posts were everywhere about ZO and dealing. Let me dig some up.
Let's hold the bus for a minute on CR. I don't want you to get the impression that I think he's ok in any of this.
Especially the part of him not remember anything from 15 minutes before he left Kilroys with Lauren until waking up.
This is where it all went south, IMO: During the 15 minutes before they left Kilroys something happened to make them
want to hurry up and go, leaving behind Lauren's shoes and phone.
CR is saying he doesn't remember the time at Kilroys, yeah I know experts will say blah blah blah but you'd think he would remember going back to SW, ya know he's not allowed there,
so you'd think he would remember the thrill of trespassing and with Lauren, with a jealous bf, but he doesn't remember any of that.
So yeah he's a big fibber who took advantage of Lauren
when she was drunk. He pushed and pulled her out the door,
iirc, not carried her and the PIs and LE have stated she was not comatose!
IMO, he is for some reason lying about all of this.
IMO, someone needs to feel that the means justifies the end
but it doesn't and could never.
Regardless, it is simply true that when ZO knocked CR out he caused a tragic event to unfold that ended with Lauren disappearing.
We could debate about why he did it, but you're right AbbeyR, "maybe" he didn't handle it the right way.
Trespassing. Violence. Threats.
"maybe" this time, his usual mode of behavior caused something he could never expect or take back.
He "bothered" her so much she followed him away from her own apartment....
I think there is a pretty simple explanation for why Lauren left her shoes and phone behind at Kilroy's- she was extremely intoxicated.
Someone mentioned the lawsuit docs and I have been going crazy trying to find the answers to the complaint filed by the Spierer's, I swear I saw somewhere at some point CR, JR, and MB's responses to the allegations. Just because it is in the lawsuit doesn't mean it's fact, as least as far as the law is concerned. If CR's answer didn't dispute that allegation, then we could accept it as true, at least as far as the law is concerned, since both parties agree to it. Just wanted to mention that because I was trying to find those documents a few weeks ago for the purpose of seeing what allegations 5N wasn't disputing.
I agree that ZO didn't do anything to help Lauren, but I disagree that she was leaving in a panic. If she was afraid for herself, why not go into her own apartment and lock the door? CR didn't carry her out, she walked out w. him. I doubt we'll ever know the real reason she left w. him, since she can't answer and he supposedly has amnesia. Other than battery or criminal trespass, I can't see what ZO would be liable for. Does anyone know why no one ever pressed charges for that? If he did in fact punch CR in the face and knocked him to the floor, that's a criminal offense. I'm not familiar w. Indiana law, but in WI, that's substantial battery and it's a felony. I just think this whole idea that HT and ZO and JW and crew were somehow involved in some sort of threatening conspiracy is a bit far-fetched. HT came out in defense of JR, which makes sense, as they were friends. IMO, HT has just been in this for the attention from the start. Someone who takes a picture of themselves w. a xanax bar on their tongue is not only incredibly stupid, they are screaming for attention. I think her statements and interviews and pictures in the media early on were more self-serving than for any concern for Lauren. Doesn't make her a criminal, just vain. From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) CR and JR weren't friends w. JW or ZO. Why would CR claim amnesia to protect people he didn't know, at his own expense? Same for JR. That being said, however, can someone answer for me if JR and JW knew each other? From what I understand, JR and Lauren weren't new friends, like CR and Lauren. Lauren had been dating JW for years, how close of friends were her and JR? Seems like he would have at least been acquainted with him.
Someone mentioned the lawsuit docs and I have been going crazy trying to find the answers to the complaint filed by the Spierer's, I swear I saw somewhere at some point CR, JR, and MB's responses to the allegations. Just because it is in the lawsuit doesn't mean it's fact, as least as far as the law is concerned. If CR's answer didn't dispute that allegation, then we could accept it as true, at least as far as the law is concerned, since both parties agree to it. Just wanted to mention that because I was trying to find those documents a few weeks ago for the purpose of seeing what allegations 5N wasn't disputing.
I agree that ZO didn't do anything to help Lauren, but I disagree that she was leaving in a panic. If she was afraid for herself, why not go into her own apartment and lock the door? CR didn't carry her out, she walked out w. him. I doubt we'll ever know the real reason she left w. him, since she can't answer and he supposedly has amnesia. Other than battery or criminal trespass, I can't see what ZO would be liable for. Does anyone know why no one ever pressed charges for that? If he did in fact punch CR in the face and knocked him to the floor, that's a criminal offense. I'm not familiar w. Indiana law, but in WI, that's substantial battery and it's a felony. I just think this whole idea that HT and ZO and JW and crew were somehow involved in some sort of threatening conspiracy is a bit far-fetched. HT came out in defense of JR, which makes sense, as they were friends. IMO, HT has just been in this for the attention from the start. Someone who takes a picture of themselves w. a xanax bar on their tongue is not only incredibly stupid, they are screaming for attention. I think her statements and interviews and pictures in the media early on were more self-serving than for any concern for Lauren. Doesn't make her a criminal, just vain. From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) CR and JR weren't friends w. JW or ZO. Why would CR claim amnesia to protect people he didn't know, at his own expense? Same for JR. That being said, however, can someone answer for me if JR and JW knew each other? From what I understand, JR and Lauren weren't new friends, like CR and Lauren. Lauren had been dating JW for years, how close of friends were her and JR? Seems like he would have at least been acquainted with him.
It doesn't sound to me like she followed him anywhere. She couldn't even walk on her own!
http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...lding-video-no-condition-help-friend-get-home
Wouldn't these be the same group that punched CR and thus sent LS away from her apartment building into the night? And if they were confronting CR to the point of physically assaulting him, then why did LS leave with him? Or, if he was physically dragging her against her will, why didn't they actually stop him from taking her?
There's a big, big, BIG hole in that part of the story. When we hear about unbelievable parts of the night's narrative, I'd put this one rather high. It's also rather self-serving to try and explain the altercation away as something noble. Which is all well and good, but then why did she leave with CR? And/or why did they allow it? And why were they confronting him about getting her home? She was home!
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