IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34

[Ixchel13]

It seems to me that there are very vague circumstances concerning: 1) What transpired after LS went to 5N with CR and MB contacted JR about LS and 2) What transpired when JR contacted DR and whomever at 4:15. Re: 1): a neighbor woman (VS) claimed that MB told her that LS was gone after he went upstairs with CR that night (versus that he walked her to JR's) and 2): there isn't any proof other than JR and MB's word that LS was even at 5N at 4:15 am … she wouldn't have had to be there for JR to make the calls for whatever reason. I think you may be on to something but also wonder if she even made it back to 5N after that. That would account for no credible evidence being found there had she passed away, etc.

yes, yes. Lauren had been at JR;s earlier in the evening, so any trace of her, especially on the IPOD, could be explained away, even traces of blood or DNA, because somewhere in the 5N POIs narratives, I think JR's, he notices that Lauren is hurt.
So for whatever reason, JR's apt is going to be "clean" of any actual death scents or DNA. Forensic evidence will prove she was there, and that she was alive when there. Or that she was not dead there..
Here's a huge supposition, theory, conjecture: Lauren was at JRs earlier in the evening.According to ZC, Lauren was doing shots so let's assume that ZC was at the the party at JRs earlier doing shots with Lauren, and saw Lauren mistake an IPod for a phone but at that party, not at JRs later that evening a 4 am with only MB for a witness.
Discrepancies like this could catch them out eventually. Lauren's fingerprints on the IPod would indeed help his story, but lying about when she put them there would not.
conjecture
ok editing to say, this is just an example of how these people involved could contradict each other and why they then become POIs. I'm sure there could be other examples.

 

[Ixchel13]

ok my post didn't make sense. What I'm saying is, JRs apt would be the perfect staging area for Lauren disappearing into the night, if they are guilty of anything concerning her disappearance.

Since she had been to JRs earlier, there would have been evidence of that. Fingerprints all over the place, maybe a blond hair, etc. A glass she drank from, who knows what, and the aforementioned IPOD would have her fingerprints at least.

We can assume there were cadaver dogs that came up nil for his apt. So, Lauren may have died somewhere else nearby .

Then we have people like Daniel Messell and right where Lauren was. First Lauren feels she needs to leave her own apt
bldg and on her floor, too. Then, tries to get in her(new) friend's apt (ZC) then goes up to CRs. At this point, conflicting stories.

Was she gone when MB came back downstairs, or did he come downstairs and then walk her over to JRs? In the latter version, they go over and make several phone calls according to MB.

In some version, JR only makes 2 calls, one to DR and the other to the unknown guy. I think that is LE being nonspecific.

They really never have said there were only two calls, but that JR made two calls. IIRC MB said he made a call(s)?

Anyway these guys are sketchy, could be that the bf and friends made her feel like she had to leave somehow and then she actually did get suddenly snatched.

They are hiding a secret that will eventually come out, IMO.

 

[Mahouston69]

Is there a possibility of two calls but both attempts to DR and no unknown other person?

 

[Ixchel13]

I think the Spierers were well informed of their chances of getting any legal recourse on these guys. They are intelligent people and had access to excellent lawyers. What they were likely doing was trying to get something, anything if only to keep the case rolling and the pressure on these cads that let their daughter who was blitzed out of her mind out into the early morning, shoeless, phoneless instead of calling a cab, the cops, escorting her, calling someone to help her out. Other than a lawyer composed apology, little contrition for these guys and their families. I

BBM at the very least that's what they did

 

[AbbeyR]

It also makes me think about MB's story about mistaking Lauren and CR for burglars. Were they in the living room with the lights out? If they were upstairs in a bedroom, it seems he wouldn't have had the burglar impression.

It also makes me suspect that Mystery Man was a roommate of CR and MB, or else was subletting. Just speculating.

I always wonder about the burglary story too - obviously MB saw or heard something out of the ordinary. I want to know what that was.

The 'mystery man' is CR. This has been confirmed by the private investigators and reported in MSM, as well as indirectly confirmed by the police. There is no mystery about this small part of this case, IMO.

I wish we had something new in this case. Lauren, where are you??

Abbey your private box is full.

Thanks, should work now!

 

[Ixchel13]

I always wonder about the burglary story too - obviously MB saw or heard something out of the ordinary. I want to know what that was.

The 'mystery man' is CR. This has been confirmed by the private investigators and reported in MSM, as well as indirectly confirmed by the police. There is no mystery about this small part of this case, IMO.

I wish we had something new in this case. Lauren, where are you??





Thanks, should work now!

BBM totally think there's a mystery here. While LE claims to have Lauren sitting on the steps, and video of her going up the alley with CR, for some reason they claim there is no video of her smacking her head at that time and being picked up by the mystery man.
The eyewitness described her as comatose after hitting her head, and picked up and slung over a shoulder still unconscious and carried.
The PIs describe Lauren and CRs journey up the alley as a haphazard journey of pulling, carrying and pushing and that Lauren was very much alive, falling down, being pulled up, carried piggyback etc.
IMO, the eyewitness is describing a later event. LE has said they have video of her emerging from the alley and that she was alive and moving. This doesn't sound like they saw her being carried in a slung over the shoulder manner and that she was unconscious.

 

[monkey222]

My memory is starting to get foggy re: what we know of the POIs timeline and actions after LS was last seen by JR rounding the corner in the pre-dawn hours on Fri am. When again (thanks WSers) did one of the 5N boys ask person at store if they saw a little blonde girl? . Where was store in relation to the "rounding the corner" from JRs balcony? Was store on LS supposed path if she were headed back to SWood? Thanks.

 

[Ros]

As I recall it was CR at a CVS, probably June 5, but because the news report was not completely unambiguous, many thought it was on June 4.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AbbeyR]

There were two separate reports.

In one, a friend from Smallwood ran into CR and MB at CVS on the afternoon of June 3rd. He said that MB told him that Lauren left his apartment and that he watched her walk away early that morning.

There was another article that described a different encounter with a neighbor. It stated that CR asked him if he had "seen a little blonde girl". IIRC, the article describes this as taking place "the next day, June 4" (or possibly the next morning). The article originally had the month wrong too, and it's unclear whether the neighbor said "the next day" as in, the morning after CR was punched (which he had just commented on) - this would be June 3, or the following day, June 4. I've always wanted to know this, as it seems strange either way.

Edited to add: Both articles are quoted in this post: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...mington-03-June-2011-26&p=7444401#post7444401

And an old post from Ros that has links to the original articles of all the witness statements: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...mington-03-June-2011-31&p=9945324#post9945324

 

[AbbeyR]

BBM totally think there's a mystery here. While LE claims to have Lauren sitting on the steps, and video of her going up the alley with CR, for some reason they claim there is no video of her smacking her head at that time and being picked up by the mystery man.
The eyewitness described her as comatose after hitting her head, and picked up and slung over a shoulder still unconscious and carried.
The PIs describe Lauren and CRs journey up the alley as a haphazard journey of pulling, carrying and pushing and that Lauren was very much alive, falling down, being pulled up, carried piggyback etc.
IMO, the eyewitness is describing a later event. LE has said they have video of her emerging from the alley and that she was alive and moving. This doesn't sound like they saw her being carried in a slung over the shoulder manner and that she was unconscious.

I believe what LE said was that they didn't have video of her at the time reported by Gatto, but that they did have video an hour earlier. We know there is video of CR carrying Lauren back to his apt. They never specifically said whether or not they have video of her smacking her head, but the only thing they specifically contradict about the witness report is the time reported by Gatto.

Also I don't believe any witness described Lauren as comotose. She was described by witnesses at Smallwood as being incapacitated and non-responsive. That fits with the witness and PI description of Lauren staggering and being carried by CR. No one has claimed she was unconscious, but by all accounts, she couldn't walk on her own (or speak coherently) any time after leaving Kilroy's. At the point she is picked up by Corey, she is described as falling face first without putting her hands up to break her fall.

 

[AbbeyR]

From the "Official Lauren Spierer Updates from her family" Facebook page:

“ It’s now October. I never expected to see October without Lauren. I never expected to feel the change of seasons. When the initial searches began, someone said searches for Lauren would be easier once the leaves fell and the fields of summer crops had been cleared. Once hunting season begins, virtually another source of searchers would come into play. I guess you’ve known all along, we would still be searching for Lauren on this fall day. While statistics are against us after almost five months, our family continues to hold that shred of hope for Lauren’s safe return. How could we not. You have the ability to end this nightmare. With every beat of my heart and every fiber of my body, I wish for Lauren’s return. You alone, have the knowledge which can return Lauren to us. While it took cowardice to take Lauren off the streets of Bloomington, June 3, 2011, I offer a coward’s alternative to providing the truth. An anonymous post office box. The price of a stamp stands between you and me. I am waiting to hear from you. Maybe today will be the day your letter makes its way to the post office box. We will never stop looking for Lauren. We will never give up. We are as determined today as we were on June 3rd. “

Directed to those responsible, the above is a portion of a note I wrote, which was posted by @NewsOnLaurenS on Twitter that first October after Lauren’s disappearance in 2011. I couldn’t believe it then and now, this, the fifth October without Lauren, I still can’t believe your secrets have been kept and our daughter is still missing. I again address you, the ones responsible, this October 1, 2015. Your actions are unconscionable. I still believe someone will do the right thing, tell the truth and allow us to bring Lauren home, finally, to where she belongs. I no longer have any hope for Lauren’s safe return, but I can promise you that we will never give up our search. I have faith justice will be served and you will be held accountable. Hoping today is the day.
Charlene Spierer

If you have any information about Lauren's disappearance please contact us.

Bloomington Police Department 812.339.4477
helpfindlauren@gmail.com
Find Lauren PO Box 1226 Bloomington, IN 47402
Beau Dietl & Associates 800.777.9366

I wonder what the Spierers would have to say about the outcome of the civil case. Aside from the obvious "Where is Lauren?!", I also wonder what their main questions are about the POI and what happened the night Lauren went missing.

 

[Ixchel13]

I believe what LE said was that they didn't have video of her at the time reported by Gatto, but that they did have video an hour earlier. We know there is video of CR carrying Lauren back to his apt. They never specifically said whether or not they have video of her smacking her head, but the only thing they specifically contradict about the witness report is the time reported by Gatto.

Also I don't believe any witness described Lauren as comotose. She was described by witnesses at Smallwood as being incapacitated and non-responsive. That fits with the witness and PI description of Lauren staggering and being carried by CR. No one has claimed she was unconscious, but by all accounts, she couldn't walk on her own (or speak coherently) any time after leaving Kilroy's. At the point she is picked up by Corey, she is described as falling face first without putting her hands up to break her fall.

2 things:
1) the PIs do not say Lauren was unresponsive, in fact they stated that she looked "very much alive and well, " and then corrected themselves to say they didn't know how well, but that she was very much alive.

) the bar witness stated that she saw the woman (Lauren)
fall backwards and smack her head so hard that she could hear the thud--not fall forward without blocking herself. This, the falling forward, the PIs do describe as seeing on video.

3) oops I guess there's 3--there are many accounts of Lauren speaking after Kilroys. Using the very people who caused the altercation as reliable witnesses is not kosher. Afterall, LE doesn't intimate that anyone else gave statements but them.

But we sorta know that can't be true. There must be 15-20 people at least who were going back and forth to these 3-4
blocks separated parties and know all of the people involved very well.

Let's just put to rest the idea that ZO was trying to help Lauren. He broke the law by committing assault and battery,
and drove her out of her safe haven and she died. If he had cared one iota about Lauren, her apt was a couple of feet away.

The idea that Lauren was just stopping by her own apt., or that CR was trying to get her away from her apt, is pure rubbish.

IMO, ZO knocked CR down and then told Lauren he was calling JW.

JMO MOO IMO SPECULATION ETC

Let's don't give CR a medal.
But, I don't think he was out to get Lauren away from SW; but when for whatever reason they fled, then yes, he was pulling her and carrying her.

IMO, from about the time she and CR left CR's to go Kilroys, they were being followed both online via phones and on foot by JW's friends.

One interesting thing is that CR's amnesia STARTS 15 minutes before they left Kilroy's. IMO, the altercation started at Kilroys and then escalated to SW where Lauren and CR got all the way off the elevator and close by her apt when CR was attacked.

The altercation was the catalyst for what happened to Lauren, IMO.

 

[Ros]

Ixchel13 makes a good point in that CR and LS were on their way to her apt, but the altercation caused them to change direction. However it may or may not have been JW ZO and or his companions threatened to call. They might also have said they would call 911. CR might have replied that if they did so, he would file charges against ZO. So no, potentially life-saving, call was made. But CR would have decided against hanging around Smallwood, just in case. It is interesting that CR never did file charges against ZO. One can only speculate about his reasons.

Also, a minor point perhaps, but the charges against ZO would be battery, not assault and battery since Indiana does not have a statute forbidding assault.

 

[AbbeyR]

@Ixchel

Right, the PIs were responding to a question about whether or not she was unconscious (or worse) at that moment. She wasn't. She also wasn't in good shape.

The lawsuit docs say that she was "observed by multiple individuals in a distressed, incoherent, and non-responsive state".

What are the 'many accounts of Lauren speaking after kilroy's'? As far as I can remember, there is only MB's account (Lauren either asked him if he wanted to party, or she told him she wanted to go home) - he has contradicted himself so many times that what he says is basically meaningless, IMO. Was there any account from anyone other than the POIs at 5 N that claim Lauren said anything at all in their encounters with her after Kilroy's?

 

[Ros]

JR also alleged that she talked, perhaps into an iPod, or by saying that she wanted to go home. I am not aware of any accounts that she talked between Kilroy's and CR's.

 

[Mahouston69]

Wasn't it her father that reported seeing the video of the encounter at Smallwood and her arguing (speaking) with ZO and company?

 

[Ros]

There was a news report that said that RS said that LS was actually involved I t the altercation and implied that RS had seen the video. http://www.wave3.com/story/14871996/father-video-shows-iu-student-in-altercation-with-men. Soon after that came out, BPD said that LS was not involved in the altercation http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/0...ompanion-has-no-memory-last-moments-together/
and RS said he had not actually seen the video. Not sure if the links for the latter are still there. Here is a link stating that that CS did not see the video but an anonymous source and Stacia Matthews (a reporter for Channel 6 News) described what was on the video: http://www.examiner.com/article/video-disputes-claim-lauren-spierer-helped-a-friend-home.

 

[Mahouston69]

Interesting..

 

[monkey222]

Ros, Thanks for refreshing us with those early reports. I can't get the image of her walking without purse and shoes out of my head. I just wonder if a perp in car took her?

 

[Ixchel13]

again, if ZO and friends were saying she was unresponsive at Smallwood altercation, I wouldn't beieve that. There's no evidence that she was unresponsive and IMO she was probably talking there.
Yes, all of the 5N POIs said she talked. ZC says Lauren tried to get into her apt, how would she know that unless she heard Lauren's voice. Otherwise, her roomies would have to tell her...CR had his amnesia at that time. But, ZC does not say CR tried to get in, she says Lauren did.

<modsnip>

The lawsuit docs say that she was "observed by multiple individuals in a distressed, incoherent, and non-responsive state".


BBM your quote, and I definitely believe that. I think some of her girlfriends might even have been present at the altercation, witness HT statement about going too far, who knows, Lauren might even have been ANGRY and non-responsive, and they left angry out. Yes I can see her incoherent (but still speaking), angry, distressed and non responsive to people who were telling her to stay. IMO, always in this case, speculation.