IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #35

[Ros]

So it was the bridge near Trevlac that was out, not the one closer to Bean Blossom?

 

[Ros]

Was the Trevlac Bluffs area searched? Who owned in in 2011?

 

[IMH]

So it was the bridge near Trevlac that was out, not the one closer to Bean Blossom?

The bridge in Trevlac was out per the Facebook page of the Brown County Democrat (local newspaper)

 

[IMH]

yes that makes perfect sense. I thought maybe someone had inside info about the bridge.

The violence inside the car reminds me of Micky Shunick, who attacked BSL so hard he shot her inside the car but in the end, his injuries and trying to burn the truck tripped him up.

and, Hannah scratched him good so the evidence will all be there to convict him.

IMO DM told LE about JMW: or, someone besides
snitch in the course of the investigation verified snitch's info and implicated both of them.

So, IMH< what are we to do with the whole Needmore thing? Looked up the adjacent church, it's owned by just one person and takes in $73. per year.

hmmmm. Call me heathen, but is that a church or tax evasion? Does this sketchy microarea around HW's body have anything to do with the cases, or is this just another coincidence like the coords associated with Lauren also being in this vicinity?

It's definitely a sketchy area out there (see my prior post here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ngton-03-June-2011-35&p=12337427#post12337427). It used to be part of about 450 acres belonging to the "Needmore Community" commune in the 1970s, and into the early 1980s. When the commune disbanded in the early 1980s, the property was divided up and given away to members, and some of the property was given to the Kneadmore Church, which is out of Bedford. Over the years the eastern part of this property has hosted music festivals that could account for the bonfires and trash (for instance https://www.facebook.com/events/360887260644329/).

The property has an abandoned house that may have been the original commune home. I do plan to go out there again for a hike with my dogs to take pictures and will post them when I do that.

The big question: could the old commune property be where DM was heading with HW? I suppose it could be, but then why was HW found at corner of Plum Creek and S.R. 45, instead of in this far more secluded area just a few hundred feet north of Plum Creek? I originally thought that maybe he was heading east/northeast on S.R. 45 and was trying to get to the old commune property, but things got so bad inside the vehicle that he either accidentally or purposefully turned right onto Plum Creek. With the new information out regarding JMW and those properties, maybe he really was heading further out, but was stopped at the bridge repair and forced to turn back around.

 

[IMH]

Possibly, Hannah somehow heard a car and tried to scream or signal them. Right there by Southshore Dr
and maybe that panicked DM. Or maybe she was already deceased and he saw someone he knew drive by, etc.

I totally agree! I am wondering if maybe it was starting to get light out at that point...these roads are rural but there are houses and people driving to work and stuff. I am also not discounting the idea that he took her around 1:00am (remember there was evidence she made it into her apartment after her ride home that night, her purse and cell phone were found inside her home), so DM could have been anywhere with her between 1:00am when she made it inside her apartment, and 8:30am when she was found in Needmore. What if he first went north with her (say on S.R. 37 to the Martinsville area), then he may have been returning from Martinsville when he left her where he did. The coroner estimated she had been dead for 4-7 hours, so I guess either scenario is plausible...

 

[IMH]

Was the Trevlac Bluffs area searched? Who owned in in 2011?

Not sure if they were searched. They are owned by the Sycamore Land Trust (a nonprofit that people will deed property to in order to preserve the woodlands), and I've hiked that area. They are pretty well tended (meaning there is activity out there, trails, maple trees tapped for syrup, etc.).

 

[IMH]

Another thing: about the scream that was heard (how did I forget about that?!)....it fits in perfectly with the travel directions given by Dick Allgire in the RV session. I know we probably all have different feelings about RV, but I'm just sayin'..

Hey I've seen the RV session too back when it was up about a year ago. It was taken down, and now it's back up again (someone on here but I can't remember who asked Mr. Allgire to upload it again). My only issues with it now is that the intro says it was conducted in 2010, which is a year before LS disappeared. Is this a typo, because I thought I remember it being done in 2012?

 

[IMH]

About the RV session, I had never seen one before, but I stumbled upon it about a year ago (before HW's death) and thought it was interesting. I re-watched it after HW's death, and then looked at google maps, and I was intrigued at how the northeast path that the RV session describes for LS seems to be identical to the one that DM may have taken with HW (10th Street east which turns into S.R. 45), except that the did not turn right onto a gravel drive, but he could have just a few hundred feet further up the road. Also the RV's description of the area along the way to Needmore is very accurate. Huh....

 

[IMH]

Okay, I also remember this from a while ago (before HW) and re-watched it tonight: http://content-static.lohud.com/flash/spierer/. When you click on it, you can skip the intro, and then click on the link to the far left that says "video and graphic: new details..." In this video, a private detective (not the reporter telling the timeline, but a PI in Bo Deitle's office) describes what happened to LS that night. Interestingly, at one point when she is at JR's apartment and he is describing how he was trying to convince her to stay but she wanted to go, the detective says her reason for wanting to go was that "she wanted to get her cell phone." And that she made two calls from JR's cell phone before she left, one to DR to see if he had her phone (which makes sense since he was with her earlier) and a second one (we don't know who to), and when neither one picks up, she leaves, and JR last sees her at 11th & College. What if she actually continued walking on 11th towards Walnut, or headed south on College but then started cutting over through the alleys so that she could head back to Kilroy's to see if there was any chance someone was still around inside (they would have been closed) so she could see if her cellphone was there? Also I've always wondered if she really dropped her keys/ID at the time that's always been reported. What if she dropped them on her way to Smallwood with CR, and the reason they didn't stay in Smallwood was because she realized she didn't have her apartment key? It's always been reported that she dropped them on the way back to 5N from Smallwood after CR gets punched, but it would explain why they didn't actually enter her apartment, since that was their initial intention...

 

[Ros]

Not sure if they were searched. They are owned by the Sycamore Land Trust (a nonprofit that people will deed property to in order to preserve the woodlands), and I've hiked that area. They are pretty well tended (meaning there is activity out there, trails, maple trees tapped for syrup, etc.).

I think the Sycamore Land Trust acquired the property starting in 2011.

 

[Ixchel13]

So....

just for the sake of a working theory, total speculation, and this is just one theory among many better theories:

For this theory, at the start of it, let's leave 5N out, but in the background somewhere waiting to be connected if possible.

You have two, possibly three, men working as a team/sometimes alone to stalk and abduct women.

These men are not city boys and have above average wilderness skills.

As part of the thrill, they may stalk them for a length
of time. If they had stalked Lauren previously, they would know she would eventually leave JRs.

Regardless of what any link says, IMO the gun guy is involved somehow.

Someone in the bar(DM), someone in the shadows around the corner from the bar(JMW), and someone up in the parking garage watching the door and saying which way the victim goes(RR).

Then, the person in the parking garage picks them up after the abduction;
this way there's a cleaner getaway without being seen
trying to get someone back to a vehicle, instead, the van just pulls up quickly and they're gone.

anyway, just working a scenario where there's more than one person involved, at least two.

The stepdad of DM probs said much more to cops than just DM "mentioned" a Hannah.

According to the snitch, DM liked to talk about it, even include him in a future outing to move a body!

I could imagine a few drunk pervs sitting around a sleazy bar in Terre Haute shooting their mouths off.
When you look at YB's map, Terre Haute seems the same distance, almost, as Indy. Like, westward, Terre Haute is the next "big city."

People feared both DM and JMW. Was it because they had made it known they would kill someone, or HAD killed before? IMO, yes.

JMOO, they have the people who killed Hannah; and
most likely Lauren, too.

If LE led us to believe the 5N guys did it, and didn't
let them off the hook, it could be because the little
punks let their friend down and got her killed.

Maybe
it's a life lesson they deserved to learn, and everybody else who comes in contact with Lauren's story learns it with them whether we want to or not!

 

[IMH]

JMOO, they have the people who killed Hannah; and most likely Lauren, too.

I agree! Here's why:

1) DM's trial date keeps getting pushed back. The reason for this is that reportedly the prosecution continues to add discovery (information that may support their case) that the defense then has to review (see http://www.idsnews.com/article/2015/12/daniel-messels-trial-date-pushed-back).

2) DM's case would conceivably be pretty straightforward: the prosecution must establish "means, motive and opportunity." The "means" is a drunk girl who can't defend herself, the "motive" could be anger if she bested him in prior trivia night contests, and "opportunity" could be that he encountered her (randomly or not) that evening. I think we all know that based on his step-father's interviews, and reports that HW made it into her apartment that night (her phone, purse and ID were on her bed) DM knew who she was, where she lived, and he specifically targeted her. So why is this dragging on if it was straight-forward?

3) HW's murder and LS's disappearance, including the same "means" and "opportunity," in a small town like Bloomington, where this kind of crime is definitely not the norm, were reported as "eerily similar" by the Bloomington police.

 

[Ixchel13]

JMOO, they have the people who killed Hannah; and most likely Lauren, too.

I agree! Here's why:

1) DM's trial date keeps getting pushed back. The reason for this is that reportedly the prosecution continues to add discovery (information that may support their case) that the defense then has to review (see http://www.idsnews.com/article/2015/12/daniel-messels-trial-date-pushed-back).

2) DM's case would conceivably be pretty straightforward: the prosecution must establish "means, motive and opportunity." The "means" is a drunk girl who can't defend herself, the "motive" could be anger if she bested him in prior trivia night contests, and "opportunity" could be that he encountered her (randomly or not) that evening. I think we all know that based on his step-father's interviews, and reports that HW made it into her apartment that night (her phone, purse and ID were on her bed) DM knew who she was, where she lived, and he specifically targeted her. So why is this dragging on if it was straight-forward?

3) HW's murder and LS's disappearance, including the same "means" and "opportunity,"

in a small town like Bloomington, where this kind of crime is definitely not the norm, were reported as "eerily similar" by the Bloomington police.

I agree, not sure about beating him in trivia, more likely, she cheered for someone else, etc.

BBM I thought the wording of that was on purpose, IOW, they may have been sending a message to anyone who knew about these abductions but didn't participate.

I mean LE using "eerily similar"?

There was a case years ago, a young woman, maybe only 18-19, Kelly Summers was abducted by a man who followed her from the Wal Mart parking lot after she got off work and tazed her at a 4 way stop. He had been watching her for some time, he was one of those creepy rural criminals
who hang out in the Wal Mart parking lot as they are wont to do unfortunately for undiscerning people who shop there.

Now this horrible man had her in the back of his van, and actually called his wife and brother for help. They brought him rope and blankets and Kelly was still alive and moaning. The bro asked him WTH was going on and his reply, "I got me a girl." iirc, they exchanged vehicles with him!

What absolutely floored me was the help he got from wifey and bro, I mean, what kind of animals
are these people?!

The wife didn't rat him out for almost a year until LE was getting close and found Kelly's shoes at Camp Atterbury, BTW is near where JMW lives.

What also floored me is the wife got off whereas the bro served time. The wife, no matter how scared she was, aided and abetted her husband abducting, then raping and murdering another woman!

The wife said she was terrified of her husband. But the bro knew, too. These people could have saved Kelly's life, instead, he terrorized and killed her in Yellow Wood forest.

Once DM and JMW were arrested. IMO, people talked about both cases, hence the raid on JMWs.

Between the two, there's several step parents,
ex wives, ex girlfriends, and just wait, there will be an ex boyfriend, probs a drag queen, just a wild guess. Once they felt safe, they talked?

Or are there more people LE wants for this? IMO, LE leaked that info to MSM about the snitch in jail.
Back to Kelly Summers, IMO LE waited til they had just the right evidence, then probably told the wife that since they had this evidence, hubby was more likely to kill her at that time.

Lots of good country folk around here, but also some heinous doozies. Most of these rural burgs out there, you would never catch me in one after sundown! and that's purely from experience, no guessing there.

All this to say I agree with you IMH

Was rereading Hannah's thread, and iirc Ros posted about the gay men's sites DM had on his
computer. and the hinting by LE about the bad relatinship DM had with Mom. How could a 3 year old have a "troubled" relationship with his mom?

Sounds like he was a molested child. Who hated his mom for not saving him. Who might have hated his mom for fleeing a bad situation.. MSM says he went on to live with stepdad, maybe he didn't have a choice.

Now where did DM go after killing Hannah? He didn't have a phone, so he had to actually drive somewhere and talk to someone who was already on his phone, and a recent contact on his phone.

Maybe it was the neighbor who turned him in?
He would have used the neighbor's phone to contact whomever he was running to.

My guess would be--Terre Haute.

 

[Ixchel13]

sorry such a long post, but just wanted to add I'm not a hater on GBLT...far from it!

IMO, DM doesn't exhibit a healthy gay curiosity. IIRC, he had snuff sites, and other twisted sites on there, combined with Sugar Daddy.

what stands out is the snuffing.

Also, his being on Greek Chat for 3 years. Not telling everyone they gotta jump on Greek Chat,
but if you ever have, it's an amusing read, at best.

The girls go on and on about how hot they are, and this is represented in catty posts going back and forth about who's the hottest, smartest, and more marriable with guys chiming in now and then.

The guys, however, will blog about the best "slam piece" they had this month, etc, etc, very misogynistic. Lots of smart alecky blogs by the guys, btw JR and JW wrote a few together.

All in all, pretty immature reading for normal adults
and not easy to stay with it.

The disturbing part of DM being on this site is that these kids talk about events, especially pub crawls, and the order in which the pub crawls will go in.

Usually, pub crawls will start at Bear's Place for a Hairy Bear which LITERALLY has 5 shots of booze in it. Now, they're drunk, but go on up 3rd
to KOK, aka Kilroys on Kirkwood.

From there, it's mapped out according to plan, which they sometimes post! And most of the time,
they have some sort of costume which are often politically incorrect, such as cowboys and indians, homeless people, bros and ho's, etc.

he was using Greek Chat to stalk women (and men?). JW and Hannah both lived right around the corner from Yogis. Also, the way these kids post pictures of everything they do, where they are right now, what they are drinking, wearing,
I'm wondering if Hannah and her friends were doing this?

One of the things these kids love to do is to read and exchange drunken and blacked out posts and pics to each other from the night before. And they love telling each other what they did when they were blacked out. it's scary.

It is probably safe to say a good number of men and women returning home in that neighborhood late at night are wasted. A stalker would wait for a blacked out person, not just a drunk person.

 

[IMH]

Thanks for all of these Ixchel13!

Something you said earlier: "Regardless of what any link says, IMO the gun guy is involved somehow." got me thinking. I didn't really think that he could be involved, but I looked again at the court records at "mycase.in.gov", and interestingly back in 1996 there is a divorce that appears for an "RR," and at that time the address for this "RR" according to the case docket was "Woodridge Motel, Rm 103, 4425 Wabash Avenue, Terre Haute, IN 47803". It could be a different "RR" since a middle initial was used in the divorce case, but the very next docket entry for the same name, but also using the middle initial ("E") is a 1997 small claims case, also in Vigo County (Terre Haute). Interesting, right? The Monroe County case involving the seizure of the guns and the Appeals case also use the middle initial "E", so I think they could all be the same person. Guess who else may have been hanging out in Terre Haute in the late 1990s?

A few more interesting things about the gun seizure case. The Appeals court ruling had this tidbit in the final opinion: "[RR] told police officers and hospital employees that he &#8220;feels the &#8216;negative energy&#8217; of death all around him, believes bizarre &#8216;dreams&#8217; or premonitions that he has (often involving dead people) come true or really happened, and is obsessed with the [LS] disappearance.&#8221;

Also, RR petitioned to reopen his case in Monroe County on 6/29/15. I would need to look at the code and statutes, but just quickly thinking about what his argument could be, he may be trying to argue that two years have gone by, and since during that time he has not been in trouble, and has not been a danger to himself or others, and also that his mental illness is treated and under control, so now he should get them back. I wonder if LE has tested all of those guns, looked up the origins of their purchase, etc.?

 

[IMH]

It's also occurred to me that since the petition for return of the guns was filed last summer, and there is a telephonic pretrial conference next month, means that the police still have the guns. See: https://www.policeone.com/police-pr...estroy-guns-they-cant-return-to-their-owners/.

 

[IMH]

I'm sorry I meant "It could be a different "RR" since a middle initial was NOT used in the divorce case"...

 

[Ixchel13]

Thanks for all of these Ixchel13!

Something you said earlier: "Regardless of what any link says, IMO the gun guy is involved somehow." got me thinking. I didn't really think that he could be involved, but I looked again at the court records at "mycase.in.gov", and interestingly back in 1996 there is a divorce that appears for an "RR," and at that time the address for this "RR" according to the case docket was "Woodridge Motel, Rm 103, 4425 Wabash Avenue, Terre Haute, IN 47803". It could be a different "RR" since a middle initial was used in the divorce case, but the very next docket entry for the same name, but also using the middle initial ("E") is a 1997 small claims case, also in Vigo County (Terre Haute). Interesting, right? The Monroe County case involving the seizure of the guns and the Appeals case also use the middle initial "E", so I think they could all be the same person. Guess who else may have been hanging out in Terre Haute in the late 1990s?

A few more interesting things about the gun seizure case. The Appeals court ruling had this tidbit in the final opinion: "[RR] told police officers and hospital employees that he “feels the ‘negative energy’ of death all around him, believes bizarre ‘dreams’ or premonitions that he has (often involving dead people) come true or really happened, and is obsessed with the [LS] disappearance.”

Also, RR petitioned to reopen his case in Monroe County on 6/29/15. I would need to look at the code and statutes, but just quickly thinking about what his argument could be, he may be trying to argue that two years have gone by, and since during that time he has not been in trouble, and has not been a danger to himself or others, and also that his mental illness is treated and under control, so now he should get them back. I wonder if LE has tested all of those guns, looked up the origins of their purchase, etc.?

BBM yes the old crazy gambit. Thataway, if LE questions him, polygraphs him, etc, especially about Lauren, it was all dreams and premonitions, not actions.

More likely, this guy knows who did it. I've always thought this and never believed his crazy schtick.

He was watching someone through that scope.
Someone (IMO) he wanted to kill.

So that's two "crazy people" who have both been in custody and both have talked about Lauren, both associated with Terre Haute and one, with DM.

Good work on all you have done, IMH. Really amazing actual legwork as well as mapwork, tech work and deductive reasoning. You seriously blow my mind!

Also, you brought to light one of Life's Tragedies when you gave a report on the now Needmore.

When I was young, we would skip school, make our way down country roads through Trafalgar on down to Lake lemon and Needmore. We would drive all around there looking at the cool hippies gardening. We drove up to the house once, and there was a long clothesline filled with overall jeans and tie dyed shirts blowing in the wind. And stop off at the Needmore General Store for fruit and whatever else they had in the co-op usually some sort of squirrely snack . If you wanted sodas and sweet snacks you went to the Fruitdale IGA on 135.

So yeah, used to be cool but now seems a scary haven, sketchy at best. If there is a connection between these two, I can see a clear route from a to z and areas of interest in between.

So for Terre Haute we have RR, DM and Snitch (DH?). awesome IMH.

 

[Ixchel13]

went out last night to a bar that caters to locals, I mean every now and then college students wander in but this is what I would classify as upscale blue collar.

Guy told me that his daughter worked at Yogis when Hannah was killed. LE asked employees if Hannah and DM were ever at Yogis at the same time, and his daughter told them yes, several times, on trivia night.

We discussed. I asked him what he thought of DMs phone being left at the scene, if he thought there was someone else involved. Interestingly, he agreed. He thinks someone else left the phone there after DM blacked out.

So I'm guessing the local undercurrent feels that there was someone else involved.

Something that sticks out to me is the blood spray on the outside drivers side. If it was not Hannah's, maybe
JMW's DNA was on it?

If DM was injured more seriously, like had a clunk on his head, maybe LE left that out as a trap.

If Hannah escaped and DM killed her, I could see the other guy thinking how they would never get away with it now; according to Guy In Bar, accomplice then
somehow passes DM out, he thinks by doing drugs, then puts DMs phone next to her.

A little convoluted. Just wanted to relate what some people are sayin.

 

[Ixchel13]

Hold the bus! Maybe gun guy RER and Snitch DH were in the crazy clink together!
Have to go to work and it would take me an hour and half to do what other smarter, much more tech savvy posters here could do in five minutes to look that up....:loveyou: TIA