IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[althea33161]

Welcome and THAKK YOU muchly or your posts!

It wold take a lot of convincing to get me to believe they walked to that creek.

Are you saying Michael Clutter asked for his deposit back on the apartment a day or two after the bodies were found?

That was reported via discussion stream on WDRB, local news site by a person who claimed to work at the apartments on Friday 3.15. All of these streams have been deleted

 

[althea33161]

When do they baptize?
18 inches of water would be plenty for a 6 month old baby, if she was the only one who needed it.

Catholics baptize babies. Pentecostals do not. Must be " of the age of reason"

 

[althea33161]

It shouldn't be difficult to analyze the water in their lungs and compare it to the creek water. They were pretty specific saying that there was water in their lungs and they drowned in the creek. Another thing from the presser is he stated that it was confirmed and verified that they were last seen at 7-7:30 that morning. I believe verified was the word he used or something like that. He was adamant about it though and it made me wonder if they have them on video?

eta: I'm going to take back what I said about them drowning in the creek until I find the source of that information. It makes a difference where it came from.

FIRST reports said she had not been seen since Sunday, by several people in the complex, who saw them regularly due to Brandon loving to talk about church. No cameras at complex. There is no more public confirmation of her being seen that am than there is regarding any other "facts". I believe the person who "saw her", is probably Nichols, the preacher. He seems to be MC's mouth-piece. By all reports, none of her neighbors had seen her since after church that Sun.:banghead:

 

[althea33161]

Article, video and pictures on the link about the funeral, and finally a comment from someone in his family:

http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...oman-two-children-found-dead-New-Albany-creek

........Jerry Double, a family relative who lives south of Fort Wayne, said outside the service that it’s a tragedy that “makes no sense.”

“I can’t believe that somebody, somehow has not spoken up,” he said. If there were a large enough reward, he believes people would, he said.

Michael Clutter said he’s trying to remember all the happy times and that he wished he had even more photos and videos. “Everything was memorable, because we did absolutely everything together,” he said. “We even went to the post office to pay our bills together.”

In the video he also says something about 'trying to remember' his family...I can't believe he said that...

So a relative mentions someone coming forward with info, yet MC just says '" they aren't ever coming back". This was his first public statement. To this day, he has not once alluded to the fact that he wants to know who did this....this is NOT normal. Universally, when people loose a loved one to violence, they seek answers to place blame.

 

[althea33161]

Very bizarre case. I found another article with videos of the kids and interview with dad. I know everyone acts differently but IMO there is just no emotion in his voice.

http://www.whas11.com/news/indiana/Clutter-Family-198842321.html

He is void of all emotion in every interview....I say get an FBI profiler....this is text-book sociopathic behavior....also the rapid eye blinking, inability to look at interviewer, eyes cast down to the right/left....I will say, that even tho I believe he did it, I still have empathy for him, as I believe the religion played a major factor. Also, I find it very distasteful that almost every one is so quick to label Jaime a murderer, yet it is wrong for me to take a stand on her behalf.

 

[JustPeachy]

I was thinking about this case today driving to the market, I could barely contain my tears as I thought about my little babies. I can't imagine drowning them and not helping them as they are struggling for air, reaching for mommy as she holds them under. honestly I don't think that is what happened, I really don't. Maybe because I can't fathom doing it.

Also, is anyone else having problems reading the pink font? Maybe it's just my device but it is painful to read. I've honestly had to skip right over those posts and I'm curious as to what they say.

Yes, I do have a problem reading the pink font and like you I have to skip over them.

 

[Jade]

As far as the one baptism argument if she had a received a baptism by a non trinitarian church [or vise versa] or became disillusioned by a preacher or a church she may have felt they would come up out of the water cleaned by his Blood and resurrected to life not again but for the first time.

Going under water as a sinner and dying to ourselves then raised to a new life in Christ.

>>While virtually all Pentecostal denominations trace their origins to Azusa Street, the movement has experienced a variety of divisions and controversies. An early dispute centered around challenges to the doctrine of the Trinity. As a result, the Pentecostal Movement is divided between trinitarian and non-trinitarian branches. Comprising over 700 denominations and a large number of independent churches, there is no central authority governing Pentecostalism;>>>

bbm

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism"]Pentecostalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I feel that in the scenario as presented it should be assumed that this was not a rational action so applying rationality such as she wasn't qualified isn't relevant. It was what she thought that’s relevant.

In a possible manic and or deluded state the coat and the cold day aren't significant.

The reason that I am contributing to a discussion from the point of view of a murder suicide is that is all MSM has given us. WS TOS keeps us from speculation of anyone not named publicly.

On WS I have been so accustomed to the word murder that I am realizing how cold it sounds but IF that is the case I don’t think that murder in the usual sense was the objective with the taking of the lives.

I thought I read that the creek was running really high?

ALL IMO

 

[althea33161]

sbm for space

I am one of those advocates for natural birthing.
My first two kids I was young and had complications.
Even then, I wanted a natural birth and almost got it. :banghead:

With my next child hopefully next year, I fully intend on a natural, possibly water birth.

I've also been on the receiving end of a very close friend's phone call.
A friend who had a natural home birth, cloth diapers and breastfeeds.

There is nothing more chilling than hearing your friend say 3 weeks after giving birth:
"I am going to kill my baby. Please, help me."

The woman feels guilty killing a spider. She has no mental health issues.
She is one of a handful of people I would trust with my OWN baby. (That does not include any family members.)

When I got that phone call, there was no longer any doubt in my mind of the reality of PPD or PPP.
I took her 3 week old baby and she got help. If she hadn't called me? I won't go there.

She was fine up until that day. Much like Carbuff describes. She just suddenly had an urge to kill her child.
A child she tried for YEARS to conceive and wanted more than anything. "It was like a light switch."

I believe in many, many things... including advocating.

That includes advocating for mothers who don't dare admit they have PPP.

Recognizing that PPD/PPP can happen is not a step back from the battle for natural birth.
No, there is no medication to cure PPP.
Please, research it on your own if you'd like. Come to your own conclusions.

Just please, I ask you respectfully don't minimize it in the meantime.
As you can see from members here, it is very real... and to some very personal. :seeya:

PPD is real, but I have never looked at the 20th century prevalence in relation to the "patriarchal take-over of women's bodies". Perhaps PPD has evolved due to women viewing birth as a medical emergency vs an empowering experience. Hence, 100 years ago, during " the rise of American obstetrics"', women began to be held as " frail, week- minded, & inferior".... So now, a lot of women " believe" in this indoctrination, hence the pregnancy is viewed with fear rather than joy; a medical emergency to be handle by "GodDoctor vs her own intrinsic power as a vessel of life. PPD is a result of how the medical communities DEMAND that we birth, which is against nature. Since the dawn of time, women birthed with the assistance of other women, in an upright position. Then came Louie the Perv, who wanted to view the vagina's of the birthing women of his court & decreed law" all must birth in the litho tommy position. Not only does this slow down labor, but it greatly intensifies pain....working against gravity vs with it. The list of horrors perpetrated against women in the last 100 years is essential genocidal. Now we wonder why they are all turning homicidal? Take a closer look back to the 15th &16th centuries where all of the " wise-women healers" we're hunted, tortured & killed...some estimate the death toll to be as high as 3 million. The Inquisitions primary rationale was that anyone who aided a birthing woman to " offer comfort or help eliminate pain" WENT AGAINST GOD, who said, " all women shall bring forth their young in pain".:furious:

 

[althea33161]

As far as the one baptism argument if she had a received a baptism by a non trinitarian church [or vise versa] or became disillusioned by a preacher or a church she may have felt they would come up out of the water cleaned by his Blood and resurrected to life not again but for the first time.

Going under water as a sinner and dying to ourselves then raised to a new life in Christ.

bbm

Pentecostalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I feel that in the scenario as presented it should be assumed that this was not a rational action so applying rationality such as she wasn't qualified isn't relevant. It was what she thought that’s relevant.

In a possible manic and or deluded state the coat and the cold day aren't significant.

The reason that I am contributing to a discussion from the point of view of a murder suicide is that is all MSM has given us. WS TOS keeps us from speculation of anyone not named publicly.

On WS I have been so accustomed to the word murder that I am realizing how cold it sounds but IF that is the case I don’t think that murder in the usual sense was the objective with the taking of the lives.

I thought I read that the creek was running really high?

ALL IMO

The creek is & was too shallow..I live there & was raised Pentecostal, in this area & I can tell u, no matter what the web says, the Pentecostals around here ALL hold the same beliefs! They are a closed-minded, judgmental people's & do NOT tolerate outsiders who oppose their beliefs. They are universal in their baptismal beliefs, their speaking of tongues, supernatural healing, and the Rapture! There is NO WAY Jaime Clutter is a murdered based on her religion. Perhaps Mr. clutter felt no way out of his suffocating religious wife, daughter of a Pentecostal preacher. Wonder if he was born/raised or converted. I think this would be significant. I KNOW it would have been impossible for this woman to do this, given the frigidity of the shallow water, the distance to the park from her house, walking, in snow with a wind chill in the teens, and most significantly, yes, her religious beliefs. To assume she would expose her nakedness in a public park, with her upbringing & beliefs is ludicrous. But what I find MOST disturbing, is the proclivity of most people to even consider this as a possibility. Statistic show:1) parents who murder their ENTIRE family, and then themselves, have all been men.2) Women who commit suicide do so in a bathtub or ocean. No documentation of women drowning themselves in frigid, shallow creeks, ditches, or lakes. 3) sociopathic killers are void of emotion.4)ALL people who loose a loved one to violent death seek answers & blame.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

So.....the last time she was seen was approx. 7:30 am. Police have stated so far that her whereabouts are unknown from that time until they were found in the creek. Hopefully, they have more information by now.

If we take what the prosecutor has given us so far and consider the family was either murdered at the park or dumped in the park, either crime would be very bold to stage this scene in broad daylight with homes very near. It's not like this topic of killers being bold and doing things in broad daylight hasn't come up before and argued. It usually involves a child abduction which can be done in seconds. This killer would have to have put the bodies in the creek, either drugging them first or drowning them there. Then also staged the scene with the clothing and hanging the baby harness with bible from the tree limb.

I guess the trees, even bare of leaves would offer a little seclusion. It seems like you would still have a good view from the hospital windows. Although I doubt that the hospital has any cameras pointing in that direction, it would be wonderful if they can get any video surveillance from anywhere around that area.

When considering that the family was murdered, you always look at the closest to them first. I wonder if their were any life insurance policies and if MC whereabouts can be accounted for, is it possible someone else may have committed a crime in exchange for promises of some money?

I also think of a scenario where she may have known something and someone wanted to keep her quiet. But why kill the baby also? Or, maybe it was someone angry with MC.

The other possibility would be a crazy psychotic lunatic that she met through her religious endeavors.

I want to know where she was when it was confirmed and verified she was seen that day. Emphasis was placed on her never leaving the house without telling MC first. It was also mentioned that MC found her keys in the house when he came home.

It would seem more practical that if she went to the park, she would have just drove there, eliminating walking in the cold weather. But if she were having any psychological problems herself, then her actions wouldn't make sense. If she were having problems with the husband would she being a "good religous woman" said anything to anyone if he was being controlling and abusive? Did she have her car keys and phone that day? Maybe they were taken away from her. Maybe analyzing her phone will help produce some clues.

 

[Jade]

The creek is & was too shallow..I live there & was raised Pentecostal, in this area & I can tell u, no matter what the web says, the Pentecostals around here ALL hold the same beliefs! They are a closed-minded, judgmental people's & do NOT tolerate outsiders who oppose their beliefs. They are universal in their baptismal beliefs, their speaking of tongues, supernatural healing, and the Rapture! There is NO WAY Jaime Clutter is a murdered based on her religion. Perhaps Mr. clutter felt no way out of his suffocating religious wife, daughter of a Pentecostal preacher. Wonder if he was born/raised or converted. I think this would be significant. I KNOW it would have been impossible for this woman to do this, given the frigidity of the shallow water, the distance to the park from her house, walking, in snow with a wind chill in the teens, and most significantly, yes, her religious beliefs. To assume she would expose her nakedness in a public park, with her upbringing & beliefs is ludicrous. But what I find MOST disturbing, is the proclivity of most people to even consider this as a possibility. Statistic show:1) parents who murder their ENTIRE family, and then themselves, have all been men.2) Women who commit suicide do so in a bathtub or ocean. No documentation of women drowning themselves in frigid, shallow creeks, ditches, or lakes. 3) sociopathic killers are void of emotion.4)ALL people who loose a loved one to violent death seek answers & blame.

Provide links for your statistics, please.

I could prove your claims wrong just by cases on Websleuths but I am willing to see what your research has revealed.

I have backed up my assertions based on experience with links for those interested in further reading so they can form their own opinion.

Not factoring in possible mental illness, psychotic break, or other mental health impairment [temporary or long term] is a mistake, imo.

I lived most of my life outside of Cleveland TN so do not assume I am ignorant of the church and its doctrine and divisions.


ALL IMO

 

[cindysue]

Althea , I think everything you have said makes sense, and agree, on top of that i could never believe anyone in any state of mind would walk in frigid temps to baptize her children,then get naked, in a park, and then something happened and oopsie they all died? Also i dont see the mother going to a public park to murder her children then somehow manage to drown herself,it would take time, there might be screaming, people could come up on her etc. seriously nothing works. I think they didn't go willingly, and whoever took them knew they wouldn't complain about it being cold. The items were taken because they would help set the scene or might have been things the family had with them at the time they were accosted. All my opinion. I don't recall if anyone had been to that area of the park before the people who came across the bodies. Can LE rule out that they might have been placed there the night before?

 

[althea33161]

Provide links for your statistics, please.

I could prove your claims wrong just by cases on Websleuths but I am willing to see what your research has revealed.

I have backed up my assertions based on experience with links for those interested in further reading so they can form their own opinion.

Not factoring in possible mental illness, psychotic break, or other mental health impairment [temporary or long term] is a mistake, imo.

I lived most of my life outside of Cleveland TN so do not assume I am ignorant of the church and its doctrine and divisions.


ALL IMO

There are as many statistics on the web as stars in the sky. I did not presume u ignorant of the penticostal faith, merely stating from my 50 odd years experience with penticostals IN THIS AREA. Agree to disagree. Have also been women's health& psych RN. Please, it is just MY experience & my findings. I could quote God, but some would still disagree. It does not matter any way. We will probably never know. I'm signing out. thank.

 

[time]

FIRST reports said she had not been seen since Sunday, by several people in the complex, who saw them regularly due to Brandon loving to talk about church. No cameras at complex. There is no more public confirmation of her being seen that am than there is regarding any other "facts". I believe the person who "saw her", is probably Nichols, the preacher. He seems to be MC's mouth-piece. By all reports, none of her neighbors had seen her since after church that Sun.:banghead:

I was just wondering about this. If it is him as the witness, then I wouldn't buy it as credible since he has motive to protect MC (or, it may be stretching it, himself).

 

[Jade]

My theory was “baptism like” and not based on authenticity but symbolism however skewed.

Note that I always say IF.

I am open to other theories, of course, but we are limited in that so hopefully we will soon have more information.

It does matter to me and I will be checking back after the holiday.


ALL IMO

 

[cindysue]

I hope Althea comes back, she seems to be quite knowledgable about the case and says to be Local, and I would like to hear more of what she has to say and less about things that IMO make no logical sense.

 

[iamnotagolem]

There are as many statistics on the web as stars in the sky. I did not presume u ignorant of the penticostal faith, merely stating from my 50 odd years experience with penticostals IN THIS AREA. Agree to disagree. Have also been women's health& psych RN. Please, it is just MY experience & my findings. I could quote God, but some would still disagree. It does not matter any way. We will probably never know. I'm signing out. thank.

Please do not go, I find your contribution to the discussion very insightful.

Not everyone is going to agree on everything, but please do not leave, there are many of us that agree with what you are saying.

 

[time]

My theory was “baptism like” and not based on authenticity but symbolism however skewed.

Note that I always say IF.

I am open to other theories, of course, but we are limited in that so hopefully we will soon have more information.

It does matter to me and I will be checking back after the holiday.


ALL IMO

Jade, I respect your opinion, but I somehow don't think Jaime Clutter went towards some other idea of Baptism because she had PPP/PPD or something of the kind (unless someone strongly planted the idea in her head, she was told that was to be done, or she had a miraculous vision that some higher authority told her to do this going against all else - those are all stretching it in my mind though). The whole thing would have to be skewed in several different directions based on solid/set religious beliefs - non immersion, age of consent is not right, unclothed, previously baptized, and not conducted by the right religious authority.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Snipped from Althea post:

I live there & was raised Pentecostal, in this area & I can tell u, no matter what the web says, the Pentecostals around here ALL hold the same beliefs! They are a closed-minded, judgmental people's & do NOT tolerate outsiders who oppose their beliefs. They are universal in their baptismal beliefs, their speaking of tongues, supernatural healing, and the Rapture!

From my research of the church I found the above statement by Althea, IMO to be applicable in this case. I can't say the same for the church that Jaime grew up in and I wonder if there was a big difference between the two.

I believe it would be very hard for someone to convert to this religion. They do outreach in the community and IMO, people that are down, vulnerable and looking for answers would be ones that might enter the faith, had they not grown up with it. Earlier in the thread I told about my friends mother, who was schizophrenic getting caught up in a religion similar to this. There is always that chance that Jaime met up with the wrong person.

The prosecutor in the press conference said that the morning sighting of the family was confirmed and verified. He was adamant about this. I don't think he would just take someones word for it. He stated that all people were being looked at including those she would have been close to in her religion. I'm going to take the morning sighting as fact due to his statement.

 

[time]

<snip>
The prosecutor in the press conference said that the morning sighting of the family was confirmed and verified. He was adamant about this. I don't think he would just take someones word for it. He stated that all people were being looked at including those she would have been close to in her religion. I'm going to take the morning sighting as fact due to his statement.

Well, maybe there was more to it than one person saying they thought they saw them. I'd still like to hear what that was.

Since there is such a huge gap in time that also makes it difficult to verify alibis.