IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[time]

I guess it would be hard to see anything if you are brainwashed by a doomsday Christian church to see mental illness as "demons".

If it does turn out to be the way they're saying here, everyone failed these children and their mother.

Her husband refused to see and failed to get help for her.
Her pastor refused to see and failed to get help for her.
Her parents heard "incoherent" comments and delusions, there is no indication they attempted to find out what was wrong.
The "witness" sees a mother, children in pajamas, no coats or hats and fails to even call for a welfare check (and yes, if people appeared at my door in the middle of winter inappropriately dressed for weather I would call the police to check on them).

There is no indication anyone sought out any help for her. How utterly sad and tragic.

I would like to hear from the parents.

BBM - I agree, how could they not warn the father or call for help or something. This would not be normal nor safe if this is what occurred. I would still like to know who this witness is and I'm finding it a little strange they said they saw them at 7:13 am. Not only saw them but

"Clutter and her children visited her home at 7:13 a.m."

http://www.whas11.com/news/local/New-Albany-police-say-mom-drowned-children-then-self-207869661.html

 

[oceanblue]

I feel like maybe LE didn't want to throw the whole demons issue out there until the experts weighed in on it. If they had revealed this to the public several weeks ago, maybe the investigation would not have proceeded without serious bias. There is a very fine line between mental illness and religious fanaticism, and that is especially sensitive in this particular case. If LE broached this with MC (and the pastor to some extent), they were obviously met with denial.

Now that the experts have weighed in, I no longer have any doubts that this was murder-suicide. My personal opinion is that there are at least a few people with blood on their hands, so to speak. MC and the pastor both seriously failed Jamie and the children. A few peripheral people do too, the "witness" for example, as well as her parents.

All moo, of course.

 

[Reader]

BBM. I agree, and I'm glad that's not what they did. Rather, they interviewed multiple people who knew Jaime, including her parents, who reported that Jaime displayed symptoms of mental illness, and they also hired independent mental health professionals to assess the case.

Quotes, links, and video of press conference posted above.

That wasn't exactly what I meant....how can you diagnose mental illness definitively without the individual having been examined by a medical professional prior to death? This is all after the fact, even the consultations with the doctors.

I have read all the articles and seen the videos now, and it seems the LE's sole basis for mental illness is the witness who saw her that morning and statements from her parents/friends in WA, but these are not detailed and are described in vague statements of 'grandiose' and 'delusional'. How do we know she wasn't just quoting scripture to this witness and it was misinterpreted? If this witness was so concerned with her statements/behavior and how the family was dressed, I also want to know why this was not reported, at least to the husband if not authorities?

And I have to take into account the fact the same WA people denied she had any mental problems or problems after the birth in statements made to newspapers before. How or why did they change their minds? As far as I can see this is all based on hearsay and an attempt to protect the LE department.

For me, I'll hold off to see what the grand jury concludes after examining all the witnesses and LE investigation.

 

[The Cheese]

Looking back neighbor Larry Wheeler says he does remember some strange behavior. "The oddest thing was watching her go in and out of her door, just kept going in and out, in and out, like she was looking for someone," said Wheeler.

http://www.14news.com/story/22281165/police-new-albany-mother-drowned-children-then-herself

 

[mysteriew]

I feel like maybe LE didn't want to throw the whole demons issue out there until the experts weighed in on it. If they had revealed this to the public several weeks ago, maybe the investigation would not have proceeded without serious bias. There is a very fine line between mental illness and religious fanaticism, and that is especially sensitive in this particular case. If LE broached this with MC (and the pastor to some extent), they were obviously met with denial.

Now that the experts have weighed in, I no longer have any doubts that this was murder-suicide. My personal opinion is that there are at least a few people with blood on their hands, so to speak. MC and the pastor both seriously failed Jamie and the children. A few peripheral people do too, the "witness" for example, as well as her parents.

All moo, of course.

BBM

Actually there are many psych's who would say that religious fanaticism is a type of mental illness.



Ok, I have been thinking of how to word this.

Picture a sermon at a fairly strict church. Think the pastor might talk about demons? Think he might talk about how each of us has to guard ourselves to keep from falling prey to the evil in this world? Do you think a truly devoted person might talk to someone she thought of as a friend about the sermons, and about how she measures up? How she is trying not to succumb to the devil? Do you think she might talk about what she sees in her apt. bldg.? If she saw something bad or illegal happening, would she maybe express it as evil? It wouldn't even have to be illegal. It could be about drinking or women with different men. In her eyes, that might seem like evil because it is against the church teachings.

Fairly normal for a person attending a fairly strict church.

Now picture the police report turned into the mental health professionals. (And remember they spoke to the witness after the deaths. The time when the witness would be trying to think of things that may have pointed to what happened.)

Subject spoke to witness for a period of time. Subject talked to witness about demons. Spoke about trying to keep from falling prey to evil. Spoke about evil in her apt. building.

That would be what the mental health professionals saw.

Hmmm, doesn't it sound like delusions of grandeur and paranoia? It is all a matter of who is interpreting and how it is worded. Normal, devotion, fanaticism or a mental health issue? A lot is a matter of context IMO.

 

[michmi]

The only way she could have drowned herself was hypothermia caused her to become unconscious.

I'd be interested in hearing what type of injuries her son had--even if he was willing to do this, wouldn't it be a natural reaction to fight off being drowned?

I also wonder if MC is still tied to that church.

 

[txsvicki]

Being incoherant at times, upset enough to leave the home very early with 2 kids not dressed for freezing cold, and reports of seeing or hearing something repeatedly sounds like mental illness to me regardless of religious beliefs. Religion just caused her to interpret it as demons. Some people might think stalker, ghosts, aliens, husband or neighbor out to get her, etc. Not that people who do believe in ghosts, satan, or aliens are mentally ill.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Woman 'drowned her two children and herself in icy creek because she believed family was being haunted by demons' - but her husband insists she didn't do it

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-icy-Indiana-creek-demons.html#ixzz2TeO2Slbz

 

[The Cheese]

The WDRB interview of Michael Clutter, referred to in the Daily Mail article above:

On Friday, Michael Clutter planted a garden outside his New Albany home -- each flower holding a special memory to the wife and children he will never see again: "It was my family and I cared so much for them and I love my wife so much, I just find it hard to believe that she could have done something like this."

Floyd County Prosecutor Keith Henderson, who has been critical of this investigation, plans to call a grand jury to review the police department's findings.

That's where Clutter has put all his hope now, trying to clear his wife's name, saying, "I really have no idea what happened but I don't believe that she did this. I just don't, I would have to see a video to believe that she did this."

http://www.wdrb.com/story/22279930/police-new-albany-mother-drowned-children-herself

 

[sophiebelle]

I don't think MC killed his wife. What I do think is some people cannot handle intense religious practices. This woman was away from her support system and anybody who would have noticed her behaviors and tried to help her. I think MC did see things, but chose to address it with the church. Who was visiting her at 7am? I would think it was somebody who was assisting her in her church teachings and maybe somebody who was called to the home. I think MC needs to tell the truth about what was going on with his wife and the church. There lies the problem. I cannot fathom a child just laying down in cold water to die. I wonder if there were bruises on the baby and the young boy from her holding them down. I think she did this, but I think she was delusional, and it was ignored.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I don't think MC killed his wife. What I do think is some people cannot handle intense religious practices. This woman was away from her support system and anybody who would have noticed her behaviors and tried to help her. I think MC did see things, but chose to address it with the church. Who was visiting her at 7am? I would think it was somebody who was assisting her in her church teachings and maybe somebody who was called to the home. I think MC needs to tell the truth about what was going on with his wife and the church. There lies the problem. I cannot fathom a child just laying down in cold water to die. I wonder if there were bruises on the baby and the young boy from her holding them down. I think she did this, but I think she was delusional, and it was ignored.

She apparently took the kids in their pajama's to someone elses house around 7am, who told LE they were not properly dressed for the weather and she was acting odd.

 

[sophiebelle]

She apparently took the kids in their pajama's to someone elses house around 7am, who told LE they were not properly dressed for the weather and she was acting odd.

Thank you. I did go back and read the more current things. I was thinking back to the first days, that someone had been there at their apt. How sad that nobody wanted to intervene.

 

[time]

She apparently took the kids in their pajama's to someone elses house around 7am, who told LE they were not properly dressed for the weather and she was acting odd.

Just a thought... she didn't drive to the creek so I'm suspecting she didn't drive to the friends house either. Wouldn't that be even more alarming to the friend. It was 30 degrees out and less if there was wind chill.

 

[marycarney]

Thank you. I did go back and read the more current things. I was thinking back to the first days, that someone had been there at their apt. How sad that nobody wanted to intervene.

BBM: No snark intended, but we do not know this to be a fact. Imagine yourself confronted with this woman and her children at 7:00 am. You know she needs help, but you also know her husband, and decide you'll call him as soon as he gets home from work and take your concerns to him. Only by then, it is too late. Let's not judge this person too harshly. They cannot have known what tragedy that day would bring. No one could have. Likely they will be haunted by the 'what ifs' forever. I know I would be.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

We could "If only" this case until the cows come home. I see no reason at all why LE would not tell the truth about their findings and I understand completely why her husband would be in disbelief. I imagine everyone who has lost someone to suicide questions if there was anything they could have done to stop it.

 

[time]

We could "If only" this case until the cows come home. I see no reason at all why LE would not tell the truth about their findings and I understand completely why her husband would be in disbelief. I imagine everyone who has lost someone to suicide questions if there was anything they could have done to stop it.

Maybe you don't see a reason to question them, but obviously deciding to call a grand jury on this case could say something is amiss. And, I'm still questioning whether her walking to the creek, disrobing, and drowning the kids plus her self is very feasible.

I lived in the Midwest, I can guarantee you if someone showed up at my house with kids who were not dressed for the weather and acting strange, I wouldn't wait 8-10 hours to call someone.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I'm holding out to hear from Henderson on this one. I want his opinion after they get a chance to review the evidence. I know Jaime's parents probably don't want anything to do with the media but I would be interested in what they have to say, since they were mentioned as those that were interviewed.

Since this is not my religion, I would most likely find it odd if someone was preaching about the end time ministries. I might think that they were suffering from a mental illness depending on how things were worded. It would be more telling to hear from other members of the church that may have seen unusual behavior. The pastor and father have already noted she was acting fine.

If this was a murder/suicide, it was a truly preventable tragedy as we have so many mental health services available to those that need them. This is so very sad.

 

[mysteriew]

I keep thinking whose home would she go to at 7 am? Who would she know well enough to be there so early?

And my next thought is that that person is likely the last to see the family alive. Why is LE not releasing that info? And was that person investigated?

And my last thought is that if MC didn't do it, why did he leave? Did he move out of the area? He moved from out of state to be near that church. He had a job there. But very quickly he moved. Did he have any suspicions about anyone? Maybe someone he didn't want to believe could do it? Did that present a conflict for him?

 

[michmi]

Maybe you don't see a reason to question them, but obviously deciding to call a grand jury on this case could say something is amiss. And, I'm still questioning whether her walking to the creek, disrobing, and drowning the kids plus her self is very feasible.

I lived in the Midwest, I can guarantee you if someone showed up at my house with kids who were not dressed for the weather and acting strange, I wouldn't wait 8-10 hours to call someone.

BBM. Amen!

 

[time]

I keep thinking whose home would she go to at 7 am? Who would she know well enough to be there so early?

And my next thought is that that person is likely the last to see the family alive. Why is LE not releasing that info? And was that person investigated?

And my last thought is that if MC didn't do it, why did he leave? Did he move out of the area? He moved from out of state to be near that church. He had a job there. But very quickly he moved. Did he have any suspicions about anyone? Maybe someone he didn't want to believe could do it? Did that present a conflict for him?

BBM - these are two big questions I have also. I don't see why they would not release the name of the witness and more about the whole encounter. It seems we would typically hear this. Unfortunately, as I have seen in other cases, when a case is ruled an accident or suicide, we never hear all the evidence... I guess that can happen also if they just declare a case closed as being a murder/suicide? Really hoping the grand jury still happens.

As far as her husband, Michael, Moving, it does seem strange since they moved clear across country for that job and as some articles said, to be at that church. I guess it's possible he just fell apart too far and needed someone to be with, family. But, I have to wonder if he felt too upset or paranoid to be around those he was most familiar with in New Albany.

My bet also is that the witness had to be someone from the church.