IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[wfgodot]

Hello and welcome to WS, CALIORBUST.

 

[lillygator]

this is crazy...am waiing to hear more info, but something is hinky with this one.

 

[michmi]

Caliorbust, welcome and thanks for posting! I happen to agree with you...something is very "off".

I don't think you have to worry that there is someone just randomly hurting people, but I can totally understand why you are afraid, I would be too.

I got the shivers when dad said "It's hard to try to be able to pick up the pieces and be able to figure out...you know...what it is you're gonna do next."

MOO-Until I hear something convincing me, I think family did whatever dad wanted, then whatever church wanted, mom had to always let dad know where she was, dad wanted to move, they moved (away from her support system). Maybe mom didn't want to do what dad wanted anymore and wanted to make a life of her own with her children.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Husband speaks after wife, 2 kids found in New Albany creek

“Absolutely nothing is going to be the same and there is absolutely nothing I could ever do to get them back,” Clutter said. “I cannot think of any enemies whatsoever that anyone of us could have ever had to let a tragedy like this happen.”
...
“I do not have a clue as to what happened,” Clutter said. “The only way I could have known for sure is if I stayed home [from work] that day.”
...

Husband speaks out, Pastor also in the video. I also noticed a bridge in the video - it looks like a pretty clear area, not hidden by trees like I had imagined.

BBM ... What an odd thing to say, imo.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

All I have to say is I was at this parK days before all of this happened, with my own kids. This creek/park/bridge is not an area that is considered "hidden" and given the fact that her building is a stones throw away from me, this has me really messed up in the head. I found myself sleeping with a hammer, knife, pepper spray and little air horn I have, next to my bed for the last few nights since this all happened on Wednesday. Sounds excessive, I'm sure but not knowing the whole story at this point...well this is eerie & heartbreaking. After watching the husband's first words to the public today, something feels off. I have my thoughts...but out of respect for the kids who were innocent in this whole thing and even the mom (hopefully!!??) I will refrain until they release toxicology report. As a mother with kids close to Jamie, living in this neighborhood, the cops had not been called out to this park in 9 years...I can not fathom how she herself could/would undress self and take something (drug/poison) that would allow some sort of sedation in order to "kill herself" and still slip her body into the water as if the kids were meant to be first and she would be second...not, in the broad daylight, not being modest & religious, not without anyone seeing something and not without ANY signs of foul play. Then again, for someone to transport their bodies there, unclothed and "put" them in the creek...in daylight, etc.. that seems unfathomable also. I guess we all shall see...but until then all I can do is pray for justice if someone did so something so horrible and/or pray for peace for her family/husband if totally un-involved and use caution when out and about our area...given it "could" be some random serial killer. This is the sort of stuff you see on TV...not in your own neighborhood and park where you take your kids to play. UGH.

Welcome to Websleuths CALIORBUST! Thanks for your perspective of the area.

I'm sorry you are afraid right now, I know how that feels. I agree with the other poster though, I don't think you have anything to worry about. That's easier said than done though.

There were a couple things that were mentioned by the father:

1. They saw strange and unexplainable things going on

2. The neighborhood was not good

3. It was also mentioned by someone that the church did a lot of outreach in the neighborhood the Clutters lived in.

I noticed that you mentioned the police hadn't been called to the park in 9 years, so it doesn't sound like it was a dangerous place to hang out. The statements made by the father and the safety precautions he speaks of make it sound like a bad neighborhood. Can you give me your opinion on the area?

Also, I wondered if you were familiar/aware of the church and the outreach they do in the community?

I agree it just seems so odd, no matter how this crime went down, that it was done in broad daylight in a area that was not hidden. Do you know if it would be normal for kids to walk through the park area when they got out of school? I find it odd that they were not noticed until after 5:00, if it happened in the morning or earlier in the day.

I hope that others that might have been to the park that day will speak to LE and maybe it can help to get a better time of when this occurred.

 

[marycarney]

Welcome to Websleuths CALIORBUST! Thanks for your perspective of the area.

I'm sorry you are afraid right now, I know how that feels. I agree with the other poster though, I don't think you have anything to worry about. That's easier said than done though.

There were a couple things that were mentioned by the father:

1. They saw strange and unexplainable things going on

2. The neighborhood was not good

3. It was also mentioned by someone that the church did a lot of outreach in the neighborhood the Clutters lived in.

I noticed that you mentioned the police hadn't been called to the park in 9 years, so it doesn't sound like it was a dangerous place to hang out. The statements made by the father and the safety precautions he speaks of make it sound like a bad neighborhood. Can you give me your opinion on the area?

Also, I wondered if you were familiar/aware of the church and the outreach they do in the community?

I agree it just seems so odd, no matter how this crime went down, that it was done in broad daylight in a area that was not hidden. Do you know if it would be normal for kids to walk through the park area when they got out of school? I find it odd that they were not noticed until after 5:00, if it happened in the morning or earlier in the day.

I hope that others that might have been to the park that day will speak to LE and maybe it can help to get a better time of when this occurred.

BBM: Can I say that this is relative? For example, I moved from Chicago to a small town in Indiana several years ago. People in this town consider Indianapolis (in general) 'dangerous' whereas I cannot think of too many areas in Indy that would concern me. Perhaps they considered an apartment complex in general as 'dangerous' compared to where they lived previously?

 

[michmi]

BBM: Can I say that this is relative? For example, I moved from Chicago to a small town in Indiana several years ago. People in this town consider Indianapolis (in general) 'dangerous' whereas I cannot think of too many areas in Indy that would concern me. Perhaps they considered an apartment complex in general as 'dangerous' compared to where they lived previously?

I wondered about that, because from the aerial views, it certainly doesn't look like a terrible area (the roofs of the apartment complexes look really worn but that's pretty normal). I see pools in backyards, well kept homes, and the park itself is well maintained, it seems.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

BBM: Can I say that this is relative? For example, I moved from Chicago to a small town in Indiana several years ago. People in this town consider Indianapolis (in general) 'dangerous' whereas I cannot think of too many areas in Indy that would concern me. Perhaps they considered an apartment complex in general as 'dangerous' compared to where they lived previously?

Yes, that's true. I wonder why the father would make note to the mother to make sure you lock the door when I leave and then state that she never left the house without calling or texting him first. Was that due to their feelings about the neighborhood not being safe, was it because something traumatic had happened to them previously, were they overly paranoid about the outside world or was it a control issue.

Statements such as evil spirits, strange and unexplainable things and end of the world teaching, make me wonder what was going on.

 

[marycarney]

I'm guessing that since the LE has said that the children's COD was drowning, but 'awaiting toxicology' on the mother, that she did NOT drown?

And early on, I had no worries about dad, but now I am seriously conflicted.

I have a close friend who was 'religiously controlled' (if I can use that term) by her EX. And many of the things that have come out about his control of her activity concern me.

And another random thing: Dad left for work at 0450 and the 10 year old was already up?

 

[Reader]

BBM ...

“I do not have a clue as to what happened,” Clutter said. “The only way I could have known for sure is if I stayed home [from work] that day.”

What an odd thing to say, imo.

Agree...the first sentence is understandable, but the 'for sure' in the 2nd sentence makes me wonder if he knew something was going to happen but not 'for sure'....maybe I'm reading to much into it...

I'm guessing that since the LE has said that the children's COD was drowning, but 'awaiting toxicology' on the mother, that she did NOT drown?

And early on, I had no worries about dad, but now I am seriously conflicted.

I have a close friend who was 'religiously controlled' (if I can use that term) by her EX. And many of the things that have come out about his control of her activity concern me.

And another random thing: Dad left for work at 0450 and the 10 year old was already up?

BBM - IIRC, the article said (according to the pastor) that the boy 'heard the parents' and came into the room to tell his dad goodbye....wonder if he heard them arguing?

I'm also wondering where the mother and children were when they were seen around 7:30 that morning...around the apartments? in town? at church? in the park? If the husband did not know about it, obviously she did not report it to him as usual.

Another thing, since we found out the pastor was mistaken about the father making a missing persons report and going to the police station, how much can his information be relied on? He was just telling what the father told him but that information may not be exactly what happened.

 

[Reader]

Mrs. Clutter looks younger in this photo than others I've seen.

“She would kick her arms and her feet around. And then she'd look over at her brother and he'd kick his arms and feet around,” Michael Clutter said, describing the games his children would play together.


http://www.whas11.com/news/indiana/Clutter-Family-198842321.html

 

[Reader]

Father shares memories of deceased family members

http://www.whas11.com/news/indiana/Clutter-Family-198842321.html

............Michael Clutter says the last few days have been like a nightmare to him.

He says the support of family friends and fellow church members have been comforting, but he still wants answers about what led to his family members' deaths.

“This was a very loving mother and just two incredible really beautiful kids that I love very much. And we were just such a wonderful family,” he said. ...............

Michael says he finds it all incomprehensible.

“I never seen any signs whatsoever, because if I would have seen signs, I would have been able to do something to prevent this,” he said. ..............

He says he takes comfort in what he says he knows in his heart.

“My wife loved her kids very much. And she loved me,” he said.............

Where is the mention of his own family, who the pastor said was visiting from Portland to help the father cope? Still not a word from them or about them. (unless there should be a comma between 'family' and 'friends').

He seems to think everything was just perfect...if this was a suicide/murder, he was very mistaken or very deluded that he had everything under his control.

 

[WhitneyLea]

BBM: Can I say that this is relative? For example, I moved from Chicago to a small town in Indiana several years ago. People in this town consider Indianapolis (in general) 'dangerous' whereas I cannot think of too many areas in Indy that would concern me. Perhaps they considered an apartment complex in general as 'dangerous' compared to where they lived previously?

I agree, the concept of a "bad" neighborhood is definitely relative. I grew up within 10 minutes or so of this area. The neighborhood is lower income, but I never thought of it as dangerous. I think anytime there are Section 8/public housing projects like around here, some people perceive the area as "a bad neighborhood." But this isn't what I would call an urban or high crime area. Just my 2 cents ...

 

[CALIORBUST]

Just trying to play catch-up and see if there is any new information in this disturbing case. I made a statement on page 4. I said "

... As a mother with kids close to Jamie, living in this neighborhood...."

I just wanted to clarify I meant to say "as a mother with kids close in age to Jamie's" - Not CLOSE TO Jamie. I do not know her or anyone related to this family, etc....simply typo on my part.

 

[CALIORBUST]

Thanks for the welcomes. Hope we get some sort of answers soon.

 

[CALIORBUST]

......

Welcome to Websleuths CALIORBUST! Thanks for your perspective of the area.

I'm sorry you are afraid right now, I know how that feels. I agree with the other poster though, I don't think you have anything to worry about. That's easier said than done though. Thanks! Sadly, the world has gone to ****!

There were a couple things that were mentioned by the father:

1. They saw strange and unexplainable things going on

2. The neighborhood was not good (I wouldn't agree with that per say. The apartment complex Sheffield is not bad. There are other places in New Albany that I would consider unsafe aka bad. The manager has been there for 20 something years! They have a pool, tennis court, playground area, all units have w/d, dishwashers, etc.. sounds stupid Im sure but this isn't bottom of the line slum apartments. Every building has a security system on it. You can't get into the buildings unless you buzz someone on the outside intercom system and they buzz you in to the inner common area or if you have a key to the outside. Every tenant has two keys, one that is the master outside lock and their own individual unit key. Just random bit of info. The houses that line Country Club Drive which Sheffield is off of, are not poor or bad. In fact, all cute brick single family homes, drive ways, yards, middle class type cars, etc.. Down Greybrook Lane is the park on the right side. To be honest, I would not be walking there with my kids from Sheffield Apartments. My kids are between 3 and 6. It is not like "far" away...but I also wouldn't consider it close. To be honest...I don't think there is a sidewalk...and not sure about sidewalk on the right side of road down to the park...on foot. I'd have to check that out in the morning. Now...down from the park and up over a hill...is what some would call the "projects" and low income housing, etcara .. IMO...I don't think this had anything to do with this. Too bizarre. I do not let my kids out of my site (even in my back yard area) so to think about kids "walking through the park from school" no..not so much...there are homes that back up to the creek. Interestingly enough, I just moved here to New Albany because of the apartment I was located in Clarksville, IN...the 17yr old girl Tara Willenberg was just raped and murdered in her apartment by Richard Wooten...all over big time news. He is in jail, long criminal history, I had seen the man walking through the complex a week before my kids and I moved out with our lease ending. So to say Im freaked the F out with 2 murder(s) or murder-suicide as possible in this one...within 25 feet of me, is a understatement. Then again, also all over the news a middle-age, upperclass white man was just murdered in his home in Sellersburg, IN. This neighborhood has little to NO crime, no suspects in the case, goes to show evil and crime is everywhere. You CANT pin point it to "the neighborhood was bad" - I DISAGREE.

3. It was also mentioned by someone that the church did a lot of outreach in the neighborhood the Clutters lived in.

I noticed that you mentioned the police hadn't been called to the park in 9 years, so it doesn't sound like it was a dangerous place to hang out. The statements made by the father and the safety precautions he speaks of make it sound like a bad neighborhood. Can you give me your opinion on the area?

Also, I wondered if you were familiar/aware of the church and the outreach they do in the community? NO IDEA ABOUT THIS CHURCH. I am a Christian and belong to a "normal" Christian church, a large one but one that is in NO way extreme. LOL I am lucky if I make it 2-3x a month...let alone "Thursdays" Odd to me. Thursdays?! Wednesdays, Saturday night and Sundays...nomal across the board I think but...Thursdays?

I agree it just seems so odd, no matter how this crime went down, that it was done in broad daylight in a area that was not hidden. Do you know if it would be normal for kids to walk through the park area when they got out of school? I find it odd that they were not noticed until after 5:00, if it happened in the morning or earlier in the day.

 

[michmi]

^^^^^^I have known of some pretty extreme churches that schedule things every night of the week so the congregation's free time and entire social life revolves around the church and its members. This one seems like one of those.

---Do we know for sure someone saw Jaime and the kids in the morning outside? Because now I wonder if something awful happened at 4:30 in the morning and dad either left them there to take care of later or put them where they were before work?

 

[colette]

In one of the first interviews with the neighbor, she said it was good neighborhood. She said she paid good money to live in a nice place like that with good security and double locks.

 

[RT51]

I don't think this is the father's fault. I feel it will come out as PPD with extreme religous beliefs.

I once knew someone who quoted to me that God said love with your hand, and believed it was ok to use a switch on your child as you were following God's wishes. I have know several who could not control their life and needed outside guidence to do so. They became religious fanatics as it was the only way they could control themselves from mis-behaving. All the power to them, except when it become extreme.

I am also friend with a medic who had previously told me that drowning by choice is actually peaceful. It is only painful if you fight it and when the panic sets in. Some chose to drown in a bathtub, so why not a low creek?

As far as the 10 year old goes, who knows what she talked to him about before. She may have made it seem the right thing to do at the time, to meet salvation. He may have gone along with her in the plans. At ten and religious and a good son, he just wanted to please God and his mother.

JMO

 

[BeginnersLuck]

......

Welcome to Websleuths CALIORBUST! Thanks for your perspective of the area.

I'm sorry you are afraid right now, I know how that feels. I agree with the other poster though, I don't think you have anything to worry about. That's easier said than done though. Thanks! Sadly, the world has gone to ****!

There were a couple things that were mentioned by the father:

1. They saw strange and unexplainable things going on

2. The neighborhood was not good (I wouldn't agree with that per say. The apartment complex Sheffield is not bad. There are other places in New Albany that I would consider unsafe aka bad. The manager has been there for 20 something years! They have a pool, tennis court, playground area, all units have w/d, dishwashers, etc.. sounds stupid Im sure but this isn't bottom of the line slum apartments. Every building has a security system on it. You can't get into the buildings unless you buzz someone on the outside intercom system and they buzz you in to the inner common area or if you have a key to the outside. Every tenant has two keys, one that is the master outside lock and their own individual unit key. Just random bit of info. The houses that line Country Club Drive which Sheffield is off of, are not poor or bad. In fact, all cute brick single family homes, drive ways, yards, middle class type cars, etc.. Down Greybrook Lane is the park on the right side. To be honest, I would not be walking there with my kids from Sheffield Apartments. My kids are between 3 and 6. It is not like "far" away...but I also wouldn't consider it close. To be honest...I don't think there is a sidewalk...and not sure about sidewalk on the right side of road down to the park...on foot. I'd have to check that out in the morning. Now...down from the park and up over a hill...is what some would call the "projects" and low income housing, etcara .. IMO...I don't think this had anything to do with this. Too bizarre. I do not let my kids out of my site (even in my back yard area) so to think about kids "walking through the park from school" no..not so much...there are homes that back up to the creek. Interestingly enough, I just moved here to New Albany because of the apartment I was located in Clarksville, IN...the 17yr old girl Tara Willenberg was just raped and murdered in her apartment by Richard Wooten...all over big time news. He is in jail, long criminal history, I had seen the man walking through the complex a week before my kids and I moved out with our lease ending. So to say Im freaked the F out with 2 murder(s) or murder-suicide as possible in this one...within 25 feet of me, is a understatement. Then again, also all over the news a middle-age, upperclass white man was just murdered in his home in Sellersburg, IN. This neighborhood has little to NO crime, no suspects in the case, goes to show evil and crime is everywhere. You CANT pin point it to "the neighborhood was bad" - I DISAGREE.

3. It was also mentioned by someone that the church did a lot of outreach in the neighborhood the Clutters lived in.

I noticed that you mentioned the police hadn't been called to the park in 9 years, so it doesn't sound like it was a dangerous place to hang out. The statements made by the father and the safety precautions he speaks of make it sound like a bad neighborhood. Can you give me your opinion on the area?

Also, I wondered if you were familiar/aware of the church and the outreach they do in the community? NO IDEA ABOUT THIS CHURCH. I am a Christian and belong to a "normal" Christian church, a large one but one that is in NO way extreme. LOL I am lucky if I make it 2-3x a month...let alone "Thursdays" Odd to me. Thursdays?! Wednesdays, Saturday night and Sundays...nomal across the board I think but...Thursdays?

I agree it just seems so odd, no matter how this crime went down, that it was done in broad daylight in a area that was not hidden. Do you know if it would be normal for kids to walk through the park area when they got out of school? I find it odd that they were not noticed until after 5:00, if it happened in the morning or earlier in the day.

OMG the Hooten case and now this! I can see why you are scared. I had one of the mods start the Hooten thread for me here on WS's because when I read the story, I just knew there would be more and even possibly some missing or unidentified associated with him. If you haven't seen the thread yet, come over and take a look and add your input if your feel up to it. [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200691"]17 yr old girl murdered & sexually assaulted in her home, RSO Richard Hooten arrested - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

In my city of about 500,000, which is quite spread out, everyone refers to the south side of town as bad. It really sucks because I live in a beautiful neighborhood and there are some beautiful areas, but if you go blocks in either direction it could be considered more high risk. I just hate that my area is always bashed by the rest of the city. I absolutely love it here though. I am in Indiana but way north of you.