IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

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while I respect your dedication to sussing out the truth of whatever happened, even so far as attending the church, and agree that the PPP possibility is based on some of the contradictory "facts" provided about this case, I fail to see how that line of theorization is somehow less valid than a dream visit you received from JC. :waitasec:

Happy sleuthing and please use caution.

I find the level of this families involvement/dependence on this church concerning (IMO) but not to the exclusion of other theories such as PPP or any other.
 
Thank YOU, BeginnersLuck. this is the most objective post I have read out of the 500+ related to this. Again: i am local to crime, was raised Penticostal in this area, & have been a midwife/women's health advocate. to focus on PPD is the equivelent to me as focusing on heresay, or someone's very subjective speculation. Yes, the "facts of this case are sketchy, at best, and are tending towards contradictory...1) the "strange things" were quoted by the good Pastor Nichols, who also quoted that the Sunday prior to her murder, JC had told him she was "happier than she had ever been".2)a family that has had no income for 18-24 months CAN NOT travel from Wa. to IN.(>3,000mls) 3 or 4 times, yet Nichols has also said, "they visited the church a few times a year". since rosemary valentine, MC's mom, lives roughly 180 miles away from GF church, wonder who this family of four stayed with while visiting the church, when they had no $$. Who sponsored them during the first weeks in their new apt. while waiting for MC's first paycheck? Bill Pink is a pastor, so I can assume he is not loaded with cash to fund this move. The Clutter's could not have sold their house prior to the move, because they would not have been making mortgage payments.

3) first Knable said the children drowned, water found in lungs;now she says water found in all three on 4-4-13.

JC came to me in a dream a few nights ago. she was under water, but not deep, & she said, "keep searching". I have since contacted Prosecutor Hendrick's office, Floyd Co. Coroners office, local FBI, and sent e-mail to FBI Criminal Investigation on Crimes Against Children in Washington DC. I was told that COD on JC would come from Jefferson Co. Coroner in Louisville, by the Floyd Co. Coroner's office. the FBI WILL NOT investigate, unless they are asked by the local LE to get involved. I went to GF church on Easter. MC did not attend this sevice & it was a typical, exhuberant penticostal show staring the charismatic Pastor Nichols performing for a packed house...I can tell you, the membership of this church is large & wealthy & there were moments when it seemed the congregation was is a hypnotic state of worship. during the "alter call" at the end of the sevice, more than 1/2 went forward with much speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, & about a dozen folks "slain in the spirit"(this is where after the pastor prays for them & annoints their forehead with oil, the fall backwards in convulsions, as they recieve their divine healing) i won't go back, but wanted to see if it was the same as i thought it was...IMO, I just pray JC & her babies can RIP soon.

My bolding

Knable said she found water in the lungs of all three on March 15.

A Southern Indiana coroner says she found water in the lungs of a woman and two children

Floyd County Coroner Leslie Knable


http://www.courierpress.com/news/2013/mar/15/coroner-bodies-found-creek-had-water-lungs/?print=1
 
One of the big ways we're separated from other animals on our planet is our over-developed ability to mask our behaviors, to put on a face to meet the faces that we meet. Thus the "surprise" everyone expresses when someone does something they'd never have guessed at can sometimes be said not really to be surprising at all.
 
BBM

It was the 911 caller, who couldn't see the bodies well (thought they were mannequins), that said the adult female body looked "beat and cut up".

However, when the coroner examined the bodies at the scene, she said there no visible injuries.

After the autopsies, when the bodies could be examined internally, the coroner said they had injuries from being in the water.

:twocents:

911 call
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek


she said there were no visible injuries

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/woman-2-children-wash-found-dead-indiana-creek/nWsDg/

Southern Indiana officials continue investigating the deaths of a mother and two children whose bodies were found Wednesday in a creek that winds through Binford Park.

Floyd County Coroner Leslie Knable said Friday that autopsy results showed they suffered injuries consistent with having been in water.


http://www.indystar.com/article/20130315/NEWS02/303150034/Coroner-Mom-2-kids-found-creek-may-drowned

I read the article (thanks!) and am asking this seriously, not facetiously, because I don't have knowledge in this area: What does this (BBM) mean? Does "injuries" in this context simply mean water in the lungs?
 
I am thinking the ME can determine post or pre death injuries. The person who placed the 911 call may have seen injuries to the body which occurred post mortem by being knocked around in the water among rocks or logs, etc. He would IMO say there were no visible injuries that caused her death or caused him to suspect those post mortem injuries relate in any way to COD.

So yes, the bodies were probably scratched up or had contusions but all of those must have been post mortem in nature to explain the ME's statements in the article mentioned above.
 
I am thinking the ME can determine post or pre death injuries. The person who placed the 911 call may have seen injuries to the body which occurred post mortem by being knocked around in the water among rocks or logs, etc. He would IMO say there were no visible injuries that caused her death or caused him to suspect those post mortem injuries relate in any way to COD.

So yes, the bodies were probably scratched up or had contusions but all of those must have been post mortem in nature to explain the ME's statements in the article mentioned above.

My take has always been that the 9-1-1 caller did not get terribly close (I know I wouldn't) and there is considerable debris in the water that may have looked like injuries from a distance.

Oh, BBM means 'bolded by me'.. there's a whole alternate language here that takes a little getting used to! :)
 
My take has always been that the 9-1-1 caller did not get terribly close (I know I wouldn't) and there is considerable debris in the water that may have looked like injuries from a distance.

Oh, BBM means 'bolded by me'.. there's a whole alternate language here that takes a little getting used to! :)

Hi Mary. I see you are a nurse. I'd googled about drowning and injuries. I found that drowning itself is considered an injury, and also that drowning causes tissue hypoxia? I also made the mistake of googling pictures of tissue hypoxia. :blushing: I wondered if there might have been some darkening of the skin that appeared to the 911 caller, who couldn't see well, as bruises?
 
Yes, a deceased drowning victim is often blue/ black in the face. It's awful.......
 
Thank YOU, BeginnersLuck. this is the most objective post I have read out of the 500+ related to this. Again: i am local to crime, was raised Penticostal in this area, & have been a midwife/women's health advocate. to focus on PPD is the equivelent to me as focusing on heresay, or someone's very subjective speculation. Yes, the "facts of this case are sketchy, at best, and are tending towards contradictory...1) the "strange things" were quoted by the good Pastor Nichols, who also quoted that the Sunday prior to her murder, JC had told him she was "happier than she had ever been".2)a family that has had no income for 18-24 months CAN NOT travel from Wa. to IN.(>3,000mls) 3 or 4 times, yet Nichols has also said, "they visited the church a few times a year". since rosemary valentine, MC's mom, lives roughly 180 miles away from GF church, wonder who this family of four stayed with while visiting the church, when they had no $$. Who sponsored them during the first weeks in their new apt. while waiting for MC's first paycheck?

Are you saying they visited the church 3 or 4 times a year before moving to the area? Did they move just to be close to church? What was the draw , they could have gotten a church closer to their WA home I'd think.
 
Could it be possible that the reason MC is so adamant that JC was so happy and didn't do this, is that he knows she did. Someone mentioned above that perhaps she was having issues, but only MC and the pastor knew. MC took JC to him for help with her issues. Seeking medical help might be "shameful". The odd things going on around the house could very well have been manifestations of mental duress crossed with a bit of religious paranoia. It's already been addressed that she was under a lot of stress with the hard times they had been under and then a big move, away from her life long support system. Maybe she had been pleading with MC to get her help or go back to WA, and he rebuked her? His stoic behavior would be warranted if he knows she did this and he didn't help her. He could be mad at himself , or in my opinion mad at her for being "weak" and not letting her faith handle it.

All moo, of course.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
 
Thank you OceanBlue, you very well described the vibe I have gotten from dad. His affect IS odd and the pastor inserting himself or being selected as the dad/husband's spokesperson was offputting to me and many others following this one. But if they both knew something was off mental health wise with JC, I can maybe understand some of the affect issues I have with dad.
 
My take has always been that the 9-1-1 caller did not get terribly close (I know I wouldn't) and there is considerable debris in the water that may have looked like injuries from a distance.

Oh, BBM means 'bolded by me'.. there's a whole alternate language here that takes a little getting used to! :)

I realized after rereading my post that it looked like I was asking what "BBM" means, but I was asking what the coroner meant by injuries being consistent with drowning. Have been around WS a long time and know what BBM means. Very sorry for the confusion!

Also, thanks to you and everyone else who helped to answer my question. Much appreciated.
 
Hi Mary. I see you are a nurse. I'd googled about drowning and injuries. I found that drowning itself is considered an injury, and also that drowning causes tissue hypoxia? I also made the mistake of googling pictures of tissue hypoxia. :blushing: I wondered if there might have been some darkening of the skin that appeared to the 911 caller, who couldn't see well, as bruises?

OR--I'm just remembering this from my mom's death (a natural death)-she had mottling of the skin just before her death. Would that happen in a death like drowning? Because it looks just like bruising.
 
Are you saying they visited the church 3 or 4 times a year before moving to the area? Did they move just to be close to church? What was the draw , they could have gotten a church closer to their WA home I'd think.

I believe pastor said "a few times a year"...It was said also about "every 6 or 7 months"...so i was deducting, 3-4 times in the 18-24month period. this statement has been in a few articles....
 
Are you saying they visited the church 3 or 4 times a year before moving to the area? Did they move just to be close to church? What was the draw , they could have gotten a church closer to their WA home I'd think.

while I respect your dedication to sussing out the truth of whatever happened, even so far as attending the church, and agree that the PPP possibility is based on some of the contradictory "facts" provided about this case, I fail to see how that line of theorization is somehow less valid than a dream visit you received from JC. :waitasec:

Happy sleuthing and please use caution.

I find the level of this families involvement/dependence on this church concerning (IMO) but not to the exclusion of other theories such as PPP or any other.

the dream has no "validity", just a comment....
 
Are you saying they visited the church 3 or 4 times a year before moving to the area? Did they move just to be close to church? What was the draw , they could have gotten a church closer to their WA home I'd think.

Previous articles have shown they already belonged to a Pentacostal church in Aberdeen, WA where Jaime's father is a pastor.

The father had said his church would have a memorial for Jaime and the children but I haven't been able to find any information on it.
 
You know what else really grinds me about this? He buried his family where they have NOBODY. Fairview Cemetery in New Albany, Indiana. Nothing but that church.

Her parents are in Washington. MC is living with his mother 3 hours and 200 miles away and I'm assuming he's left his job. Is there some problem with cremation and their faith? If not, he could have had them cremated and sent half their ashes to her mother and father. If the faith does have a problem with it and he was planning to leave the area (even for a short time), he couldn't see to it that their bodies could be sent to Washington? Or even buried where HIS parents live? Her parents were VERY involved with the kids while they lived there. Why cut them out the way he did and just leave them in some cemetery where no family lives?
 

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