IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[marycarney]

Case closed, in my book.

 

[time]

Jc & kids went to 'witness's house' @ 7:15 that am w/ both kids...not dressed for the cold, & talking to her about 'demons'....they appear to b basing this 'mental illness' theory upon this one witness....that was one of the post-press questions....why, by evert single PUBLIC account, she was 'happier than she had ever been'....they would only site this one witness, who was the last person to c them alive....this is not good police work....there is no forensic marker for 'mental illness'....the coroner, knable, was specific that the 'mental illness' was contributing factor to 'death by hypothermia....? very disturbing.....i feel worse after witnessing the fiasco. there is MAJOR cover-up hear...police chief, coroner, etc...looking to one another after each question, w/ much hesitation & unprofessional delivery of their answers....none of which seemed scientifically sound....IMO...so sad. but they all did agree on one thing, this case is still going to the grand jury, & this press conference was released BEFORE they have given ANYTHING regarding their investigation to prosecutor hendrick's office!!!! the whole idea of a grand jury is based on secrecy & a prosecutor may seek theGJ if he does not want facts about the ongoing investigation released to the press. i would not think it prudent in the Chain of Command to hold this press conference without his knowledge, knowing it is GJ bound?! IMO>>>

So this witness was not concerned enough then to call anyone or stop her? A church member I presume as I doubt she knew that many people outside the church?

Why wouldn't she be talking about demons and such anyway when they attended some thing on the world coming to an end every Thurs night, IIRC. This is probably normal conversation for these folks.

 

[The Cheese]

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http://www.postpartum.net

 

[althea33161]

Wow... well maybe many of you were right and I was wrong, but how did they determine she suffered from a major mental illness?

based on the report of one person ( a woman ), who JC visited @7:15 the morning of her death...who knew her less than 3 months! when asked by the press how they came to this conclusion, when all other reports say she was happy, Chief Knight looked to Coroner Knable & they concurred that they could only say(due to the case going to the GJ), that the person she visited that morning had said she was 'not lucid' & 'concerned about a demonic presence'...hence the conclusion that she was exhibiting certain signs & symptoms that "ANYONE WOULD VIEW AS MENTALLY ILL!"...Knight actually said that! but refused to say 'what kind of mental illness' predisposed her to PPD/PPP. she actually only talked about"PPD/PPP" in the recorded part. when the cameras stopped & the press asked questions she refused to elaborate other than 'delusions of grandure & demonic activity'...when pushed, was when she replied with the above capitolized quote. i found their blatant, generic answers regarding 'this terrible, severe mental illness' offensive at best @ ACLU fodder @ worst. also, if i were the prosecuting attorney in a county, where the people elected me, i would not tolerate the blatant disrepect the police are exhibiting BY HOLDING A PRESS CONFERENCE TO "CONCLUDE THEIR INVESTIGATION", without having first notified his office of their findings. i know this because Knight said it! bad politics/salt on an open wound....it felt like S.Knight did this to say to prosecutor hendricks: 'take that! we just concluded our investigation & told the world before we said jack***** to u!IMO

 

[althea33161]

Wow... well maybe many of you were right and I was wrong, but how did they determine she suffered from a major mental illness?

Hmm almost the same wording as what she was allegedly like at the witnesses home at 7 am that day. Also the same wording used in the press conference. Usually different witnesses will use different wording.

I hope there is a statement from the family soon.

very acute observation. thank u!

 

[The Cheese]

Video of press conference

http://link.brightcove.com/services...2rv2OWh&bclid=44969820001&bctid=2389974179001

 

[time]

I want to know if they consulted any experts in the field of psychology/psychiatry and that they thoroughly explored the victimology and did a psychological autopsy of this woman. I do not believe they can just claim anyone would view this as mentally ill as an explanation when there are at least two murders of children.

 

[The Cheese]

From the press conference - in addition to all the interviews of relatives and friends, they also hired independent mental health professionals to assess the case.

 

[althea33161]

If she believed she was being "stalked by demonic presences," the preacher evidently took her literally and made his statement about "odd and unexplained" incidents in the apartment complex about those "presences."

No mental health care possible from that direction then, if so.

(smh)

maybe there was a spirit/ghost in their apt. for real & she percieved it as demonic? i would still think she would have saught prayer/exorcism? IMO

 

[althea33161]

If she believed she was being "stalked by demonic presences," the preacher evidently took her literally and made his statement about "odd and unexplained" incidents in the apartment complex about those "presences."

No mental health care possible from that direction then, if so.

(smh)

From the press conference - in addition to all the interviews of relatives and friends, they also hired independent mental health professionals to assess the case.

they also got a specialist in hypothermia forensics; this was who said about the 'mental illness contributing to death by hypothermia"

 

[concernedmother]

The person who she visited that AM let her take the kids out of their home with the kids clad only in pajamas on that cold morning? They didn't call LE or the hubby?

Maybe it was the paster and he "prayed" for her and let her go.

 

[wfgodot]

maybe there was a spirit/ghost in their apt. for real & she percieved it as demonic? i would still think she would have saught prayer/exorcism? IMO

She might have heard noises she couldn't explain - perhaps perfectly simple to explain by someone who'd lived at the complex for a greater length of time - and, in her illness, interpreted them as something demonic.

I think this is a tragic case of mental illness, of severe postpartum depression possibly exacerbated by what one might see as a paranoid element in the particular brand of religion to which she clung.

 

[Reader]

Thanks for all the updates!

Well, I can say this information does not answer all the questions or give a definitive conclusion for me.

You cannot make a diagnosis of mental illness or postpartum psychosis on the basis of one random witness who is not a doctor or psychologist or psychiatrist, especially when the person involved is deceased.

I certainly want to hear the husband's and parent's reactions to these conclusions by this police department, basing it on their interviews when previously they had all said just the opposite.

And I am glad Mr. Henderson will still have the grand jury. Even if the process is in secret, he said he would either make charges or make a report to the public.

 

[The Cheese]

The police department hired independent experts Diana Lynn Barnes from the Center for Postpartum Health in Sherman Oaks, Ca., and Dr. Daniel F. Danzl, from the University of Louisville Medical School, to help with the investigation.

http://newsandtribune.com/local/x508505076/POLICE-New-Albany-mother-killed-two-children-then-herself

 

[The Cheese]

Thanks for all the updates!

Well, I can say this information does not answer all the questions or give a definitive conclusion for me.

You cannot make a diagnosis of mental illness or postpartum psychosis on the basis of one random witness who is not a doctor or psychologist or psychiatrist, especially when the person involved is deceased.

I certainly want to hear the husband's and parent's reactions to these conclusions by this police department, basing it on their interviews when previously they had all said just the opposite.

And I am glad Mr. Henderson will still have the grand jury. Even if the process is in secret, he said he would either make charges or make a report to the public.

BBM. I agree, and I'm glad that's not what they did. Rather, they interviewed multiple people who knew Jaime, including her parents, who reported that Jaime displayed symptoms of mental illness, and they also hired independent mental health professionals to assess the case.

Quotes, links, and video of press conference posted above.

 

[time]

BBM. I agree, and I'm glad that's not what they did. Rather, they interviewed multiple people who knew Jaime, including her parents, who reported that Jaime displayed symptoms of mental illness, and they also hired independent mental health professionals to assess the case.

Quotes, links, and video of press conference posted above.

http://newsandtribune.com/local/x508505076/POLICE-New-Albany-mother-killed-two-children-then-herself

The expert indicated that mental disorders can be intensified when subjected to cold temperatures, thus further impairing one’s mental status and or judgment,” Knight read in her statement. “These findings all support the Kentucky Medical Examiner’s conclusion that exposure to the cold weather was a significant contributing factor in the drowning of Mrs. Clutter.

...The police department hired independent experts Diana Lynn Barnes from the Center for Postpartum Health in Sherman Oaks, Ca., and Dr. Daniel F. Danzl, from the University of Louisville Medical School, to help with the investigation.

Call me a skeptic (I think that's what Jamie and the kids deserve), but this doesn't really say the experts concluded Jamie had PPP or what the evidence is of that. It merely states that they were hired to consult and that "that mental disorders can be intensified when subjected to cold temperatures"

I hope we hear more and that there is much more on mental illness and how they diagnosed it, if they did.

Was there more about this presented in articles or the press conference?

There's also a vast difference between and expert saying something is possible and something is conclusive. It's like a forensic expert saying something is 'similar' or it is a 'match' - of course, and then explaining how they came to the conclusion it is a match should always be presented in a report or in court.

 

[michmi]

If she believed she was being "stalked by demonic presences," the preacher evidently took her literally and made his statement about "odd and unexplained" incidents in the apartment complex about those "presences."

No mental health care possible from that direction then, if so.

(smh)

I'm sure he sleeps very well at night, but the preacher of that cult ought to be ashamed of himself - had he used any critical thinking whatsoever he could have gotten intervention for her prior to this. So he has 3 lives on his conscience. Part of a pastor's responsibility to the congregation is to be broadly aware of mental and social issues and seek help when a church member needs it.

MC I blame also, but I also believe his IQ is borderline (I am not trying to be offensive, he appears not to be of average intelligence) and it would be very easy to lead him by the nose and assure him the church would take care of it.

 

[especiallyheather]

deleted..

 

[The Cheese]

Video of the questions and answers following the press conference

http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...mother-delusional-before-killing-her-children

“The experts’ evaluation confirmed that Mrs. Clutter exhibited signs of serious mental illness,” which police determined was the underlying cause of the three deaths, Police Chief Sherri Knight said.

snipped

Knight said Friday that police concluded Jaime Clutter drowned the children, but that hypothermia was a contributing factor in all three deaths. A hypothermia expert told investigators such a drop in body temperature can intensify mental disorders, impairing a person’s judgment and mental state.

“These findings all support the Kentucky Medical Examiner’s conclusion that exposure to the cold was a significant contributing factor in the drowning of Mrs. Clutter,” the chief said.

No witnesses saw the children and mother at the creek before they died, but Knight said that they pieced together family and acquaintance accounts, autopsy results and experts’ interpretations of the medical examiners’ findings to get a better picture of Jaime Clutter’s mental state and the role of the near-freezing temperatures in the tragedy.

For instance, at 7:13 a.m. on the day the bodies were found, a witness told police of speaking with Clutter and her children at the witness’ residence. None were wearing winter coats or hats appropriate for outdoor temperatures in the low 30’s, Knight said.

snipped

Witnesses — including Jaime Clutter’s mother and father from rural Washington — told police that she spoke of “grandiose delusions,” made “incoherent” comments and spoke of “demonic presences” threatening her family, East added.

When asked what Michael Clutter might how known about his wife’s condition, East wouldn’t speculate, saying that he “may or may not have” seen the signs of the disorder.

Diana Lynn Barnes, a California-based psychologist who is an authority on postpartum mental illness and an expert in infanticide forensics, reviewed the police records. She said in a phone interview that the information suggested that Jaime Clutter suffered from “severe illness around the postpartum period.”

It’s not unusual for women with the disorder to have delusional thoughts, exaggerate dangers and in commit infanticide, Barnes said. Many drown their youngsters, she said.

Barnes declined to discuss specifics of Clutter’s medical records, citing confidentiality. But she said that “because of the unusual nature of this case ... we need to educate ourselves about mental illnesses that can occur around child bearing.”

She said that it’s not unusual for family members to miss signs of a mood disorder in a loved one because of the ebb and flow of the episodes.

snipped

Henderson was out of town at a conference Friday and his office said he would not provide a statement about the matter.

 

[michmi]

When asked what Michael Clutter might how known about his wife’s condition, East wouldn’t speculate, saying that he “may or may not have” seen the signs of the disorder.

I guess it would be hard to see anything if you are brainwashed by a doomsday Christian church to see mental illness as "demons".

If it does turn out to be the way they're saying here, everyone failed these children and their mother.

Her husband refused to see and failed to get help for her.
Her pastor refused to see and failed to get help for her.
Her parents heard "incoherent" comments and delusions, there is no indication they attempted to find out what was wrong.
The "witness" sees a mother, children in pajamas, no coats or hats and fails to even call for a welfare check (and yes, if people appeared at my door in the middle of winter inappropriately dressed for weather I would call the police to check on them).

There is no indication anyone sought out any help for her. How utterly sad and tragic.