In Retrospect-Kronk Believes He Saw Skull In August

[reeseeva]

I'm fine with bringing justice to a case via a 'guilty as charged' verdict as long as prosecutors present highly reliable inculpatory evidence that proves their charges beyond a reasonable doubt. However, based on what we know, such evidence is lacking in this case.

BBM

Strong, circumstantial evidence is also reliable in proving charges beyond a reasonable doubt, with the absence of inculpatory evidence.


"Its not only what a man sees that makes it so, it's what he does not see, but reasons, it is so"

 

[Rlaub44]

So, based on the evidence that we know of ( police, FBI documents, Police photos, police interviews, depositions etc.) you believe there isnt enough in said evidence that we know of, that would support a conclusion that casey committed a premeditated murder?
In my opinion, based on the evidence we know of that has been released thus far, if I were a juror on this case, I would come back with a verdict of not guilty. Why? Simple I have reasonable doubt.

Thank you. That is a very fair statement that demonstrates your opinion of the evidence at present. I respect and welcome your opinion, and your right to hold it.

Many of us have asked Wudge to simply frame his declarations in the same manner, as it is his opinion that the evidence released to date does not support conviction on the charges.

I look forward to reading more of your thoughts regarding the evidence. On the topic at hand, do you believe there is any funny business regarding the meter reader RK finding Caylee's body?

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

(Seagull, I am responding to your questions about the proximity of the remains to the road.)

I have not demonized Kronk. I have merely stated my gut feelings about him. I am not trying to impose those thoughts or feelings on any one. In all probability a group of jurors will react like the majority have here. I voiced my opinion to show the remote possibility that a juror may have the same hinky feelings a handful of us here had about him. I do not believe in the 'daisy chain' scenario and cannot pinpoint why I feel the way I do.

Here are some photos that show the proximity of the laundry bag and trash bags to the road.

Photos 19 and 22 show the laundry bag and trash bags. Photos 20 and 21 show proximity to the road.

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/021809remainsfoundOCSOpictures_set4/1/lg/196290.htm

Roy Kronk’s statement including a hand drawing of where he found remains
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0305/18862974.pdf
(Note: attachment of drawing included below)

3D side view- note the first photo and consider the grassy area before treeline.

http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/20318602/detail.html

I have a couple questions if anyone can answer. In the photographs in the first link posted photo numbers 40 and 50, they show the road and they show the blue tent. Is the area covered by the blue tent where the remains were found? If so that seems to be very very close to the road and also very very close to the edge of the wooded area. Assuming this is the spot where the remains were found, if any cadaver dogs or even police dogs were used in Caylee's search I would be very shocked if they did not 'hit' on remains so close.
Also, assuming this is where the remains were found, on august 13 was that area under so much water that the officer and Mr. Kronk would not have walked in a few feet and opened the bag then? Kronk had called the police 3 times, an officer came to the site, IMO it seems very close and wouldnt have been that difficult to ascertain if there was at that point in time a skull in a bag, also considering how close this is to the Anthony's home. Kronk's actions at this moment I dont quite understand. The officers actions IMO are unforgiveable.

 

[static]

An accidental death may not be a crime - even if it is based on negligence. Although it has been discussed that Florida does not consider the presence of duct tape as a valid cover-up for an accident. However a defendant that covers it up, creates elaborate alibis as to the child's whereabouts, parties nonchalantly, lies to LE and tries to implicate others when caught, is clearly angry when caught and refuses to accept responsibility for whatever might have happened, and gives the perception of being someone who did not want to be saddled with a child and was jealous of the attention said child received will not impress a jury to think it was an accident. Her own words about being spiteful contradict that. And I don't think we are party to all of the evidence yet. A jury has to consider the possibility of accidental death in the context of all the actions of the defendant.

(note: the thread you suggested I use yesterday is closed and I cannot post a reply)

Let us not forget, Kronk did not run out and get a tattoo,(while Caylee was missing) a tattoo that indicated that life was just the best!

 

[Wudge]

OK, so at least you agree she's likely to be convicted. Sorry, couldn't resist. But I really would like to see your list. Do you have a blog or something where you keep this list?

Wudge, assuming that the defense picks Kronk as one of their Defense Bus Speed Bumps (and why wouldn't they? the more the merrier), do you think they will actually attempt to suggest he was involved in the kidnapping/murder/taping/dumping of Caylee? Considering that the body really did show up in December where he claimed he thought he saw it in August, together with plant evidence, etc. showing it was present there for at least 4 months, it seems to me that there is little point in trying to suggest that he DIDN'T see the body there in August (except, of course, random confusion of the jury, which certainly can be successful). A better (although still IMO rather fantastical) storyline would be that Caylee really was killed by Someone Else but not until August, then was dumped near her home with evidence intended to set up Casey, and Kronk was employed to play the Concerned Citizen part to make sure the police found the body (which is why he kept calling--in this fantasy land, of course, Kronk wouldn't get paid until his calls worked).

If the defense could get the jury to buy this theory (and also to dismiss the hair in the trunk and the decomp smell as "junk science") (and also to accept that Casey's partying and IM'ing her friends that she was happier than she had been in a long time was just "ugly coping" or fabulous acting pursuant to The Zanny Script) they just might win this one.

I don't know what to make of Kronk and his absurd story. To me, the circumstances surrounding Kronk's alleged initial discovery of Caylee's remains in August are similar to the circumstances surrounding Caylee's death; i.e., I don't know what the truth is and, other than Casey and Kronk and perhaps a Kronk informant, I don't think anyone else knows anymore about what happened (in either situation) than I do.

As regards the smell that emanated from Casey's trunk, at best, it can't prove premeditation. As regards the hair in the trunk -- I believe you hold it in far higher esteem than I do -- that, too, can't prove premeditation.

Moreover, I wish to note that the hair is not just either Casey or Caylee`s hair, because mitochondrial DNA is not unique to an individual and all maternally-related relatives have the same mitochondrial DNA, which includes non-relatives of Casey and Caylee. For all I know, the worldwide figure for potential donors could be a billion or billions of people. During the course of the trial, I expect we will hear the defense put forth a very high number (I suspect Mrs. Baden will do the offering to the Court) for the number of possible hair donors in the U.S.

 

[Wudge]

BBM

Strong, circumstantial evidence is also reliable in proving charges beyond a reasonable doubt, with the absence of inculpatory evidence.


"Its not only what a man sees that makes it so, it's what he does not see, but reasons, it is so"

Please understand that circumstantial evidence can be inculpatory evidence. That truth aside, in a conclusion reached by inference, the reliability of the conclusion cannot exceed the reliability of the premise or premises from which is is derived.

Given that all the evidence in this case is circumstantial (there's no direct evidence) I hope this helps you understand why I note the need for highly reliable evidence that, in turn, could be used to form highly reliable premises upon which premeditation could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Thank you. That is a very fair statement that demonstrates your opinion of the evidence at present. I respect and welcome your opinion, and your right to hold it.

Many of us have asked Wudge to simply frame his declarations in the same manner, as it is his opinion that the evidence released to date does not support conviction on the charges.

I look forward to reading more of your thoughts regarding the evidence. On the topic at hand, do you believe there is any funny business regarding the meter reader RK finding Caylee's body?

post number 535 in this thread

 

[ZsaZsa]

I'm fine with bringing justice to a case via a 'guilty as charged' verdict as long as prosecutors present highly reliable inculpatory evidence that proves their charges beyond a reasonable doubt. However, based on what we know, such evidence is lacking in this case.

In your opinion.
Not in mine. I am already convinced beyond any reasonable doubt.

 

[static]

You know, JMO, but saying there is not enough evidence to convict Casey of murder, is comparable to a fifteen year old who suddenly sprouts 3 inches during the summer. Well, I didn't SEE it happen, HEAR it happen, so therefore, it may not have happened. So taking a tape measure, and doing the measurements, viola! By George that kid did grow, BUT WAIT! What if the measuring tape is somehow broken? Ok so trying a different tape measure, it is off about 1/8th of an inch. HMMM. My point being that just because I did not see it, hear it, and the measurement off a little does not mean that it didn't happen. I could go through fifty tape measures all of them being off a bit, but in the end, it is obvious that the kid grew. Not sure if this makes any sense to anyone, but sometimes you do not have to step outside to make sure it is raining when you can see through the window.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I don't know what to make of Kronk and his absurd story. To me, the circumstances surrounding Kronk's alleged initial discovery of Caylee's remains in August are similar to the circumstances surrounding Caylee's death; i.e., I don't know what the truth is and, other than Casey and Kronk and perhaps a Kronk informant, I don't think anyone else knows anymore about what happened (in either situation) than I do.

As regards the smell that emanated from Casey's trunk, at best, it can't prove premeditation. As regards the hair in the trunk -- I believe you hold it in far higher esteem than I do -- that, too, can't prove premeditation.

Moreover, I wish to note that the hair is not just either Casey or Caylee`s hair, because mitochondrial DNA is not unique to an individual and all maternally-related relatives have the same mitochondrial DNA, which includes non-relatives of Casey and Caylee. For all I know, the worldwide figure for potential donors could be a billion or billions of people. During the course of the trial, I expect we will hear the defense put forth a very high number (I suspect Mrs. Baden will do the offering to the Court) for the number of possible hair donors in the U.S.

Any idea how many of those billions of potential hair donors were in Casey's trunk at any given time?

 

[Wudge]

I have a couple questions if anyone can answer. In the photographs in the first link posted photo numbers 40 and 50, they show the road and they show the blue tent. Is the area covered by the blue tent where the remains were found? If so that seems to be very very close to the road and also very very close to the edge of the wooded area. Assuming this is the spot where the remains were found, if any cadaver dogs or even police dogs were used in Caylee's search I would be very shocked if they did not 'hit' on remains so close.
Also, assuming this is where the remains were found, on august 13 was that area under so much water that the officer and Mr. Kronk would not have walked in a few feet and opened the bag then? Kronk had called the police 3 times, an officer came to the site, IMO it seems very close and wouldnt have been that difficult to ascertain if there was at that point in time a skull in a bag, also considering how close this is to the Anthony's home. Kronk's actions at this moment I dont quite understand. The officers actions IMO are unforgiveable.

My understanding has been that the area was searched by cadaver dogs. Here's one link.

http://www.rosespeaks.com/rose-blog...has-been-monitored-since-day-one-in-mid-july/

Moreover, I have it in my notes that Caylee's remains were, perhaps, but 15 feet from the road. However, that 'perhaps' is just that. I have yet to hear or read a reliable source that would well corroborate that distance to be true.

 

[AZlawyer]

I don't know what to make of Kronk and his absurd story. To me, the circumstances surrounding Kronk's alleged initial discovery of Caylee's remains in August are similar to the circumstances surrounding Caylee's death; i.e., I don't know what the truth is and, other than Casey and Kronk and perhaps a Kronk informant, I don't think anyone else knows anymore about what happened (in either situation) than I do.

As regards the smell that emanated from Casey's trunk, at best, it can't prove premeditation. As regards the hair in the trunk -- I believe you hold it in far higher esteem than I do -- that, too, can't prove premeditation.

Moreover, I wish to note that the hair is not just either Casey or Caylee`s hair, because mitochondrial DNA is not unique to an individual and all maternally-related relatives have the same mitochondrial DNA, which includes non-relatives of Casey and Caylee. For all I know, the worldwide figure for potential donors could be a billion or billions of people. During the course of the trial, I expect we will hear the defense put forth a very high number (I suspect Mrs. Baden will do the offering to the Court) for the number of possible hair donors in the U.S.

I agree that premeditation is going to be the toughest part of this case for the prosecution. And thanks for the reminder about mtDNA--for those who want to follow up, the population %ages are in the FBI report (p. 8 of this document): http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2053190/FBI-Lab-Results-(Casey-Anthony)-Searchable-Doc

Re: Kronk, my question was not really what you think happened (unless you have something to confess ) but how you think the defense can use what you see as the absurdity of his story to help Casey. I mean, there's no point in suggesting that he just imagined the skull in August, because there it was 4months later with signs of having been there for at least 4 months. Right?

 

[Bittiness39]

KC is guilty. The rest is just dressing on the turkey of a defense that her lawyers have. JMO. Nothing points to anyone else having anything to do with Caylee's demise. I could give a fig about how she was found. And if we are splitting hairs...what in the holy heck was the PI working for the A's doing in the same area looking for three pavers and a dead baby? I don't care about a daisy chain. If Kronk got some information on where that precious child was he got it via the A's no one else. The whole family is disgusting.

 

[Wudge]

I agree that premeditation is going to be the toughest part of this case for the prosecution. And thanks for the reminder about mtDNA--for those who want to follow up, the population %ages are in the FBI report (p. 8 of this document): http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2053190/FBI-Lab-Results-(Casey-Anthony)-Searchable-Doc

Re: Kronk, my question was not really what you think happened (unless you have something to confess ) but how you think the defense can use what you see as the absurdity of his story to help Casey. I mean, there's no point in suggesting that he just imagined the skull in August, because there it was 4months later with signs of having been there for at least 4 months. Right?

What I would do is to keep Kronk on the witness stand undergoing cross for as many days as possible. If Kronk were to reveal that he had an informant, that would be a show stopping moment and would pave a new trail for the defense. Sans that, Casey's defense team will simply want to conduct a cross that leaves no room for doubt but that Kronk has not told either an accurate story or the whole story.

Kronk is like Furhman in O.J.'s trial. As a defense attorney conducting the cross, you know he's going to work for you, you just don't know how much of his blood he will help you will spill until you hear his answers to your questions.

 

[Imbackon]

Wudge said
For all I know, the worldwide figure for potential donors could be a billion or billions of people.

considering there are only 6 billion people in the world, you can be serious about your saying this.

 

[Wudge]

KC is guilty.

SNIP

The whole family is disgusting.

That creates a deja vu moment for yours truly. I well recall that being said, over and over and over, about the Sheppard family.

(Down doggie, down.)

 

[Wudge]

Wudge said
For all I know, the worldwide figure for potential donors could be a billion or billions of people.

considering there are only 6 billion people in the world, you can be serious about your saying this.

"The Seven Daughters of Eve" by Bryan Sykes might interest you. Though I think the latest holding is that there could be up to twenty-nine such daughters (clan Mothers) across of all mankind.

 

[LC446]

What I would do is to keep Kronk on the witness stand undergoing cross for as many days as possible. If Kronk were to reveal that he had an informant, that would be a show stopping moment and would pave a new trail for the defense. Sans that, Casey's defense team will simply want to conduct a cross that leaves no room for doubt but that Kronk has not told either an accurate story or the whole story.

Kronk is like Furhman in O.J.'s trial. As a defense attorney conducting the cross, you know he's going to work for you, you just don't know how much of his blood he will help you will spill until you hear his answers to your questions.

Baez and team have deposed many witnesses in this case. Have they deposed Kronk? Nope. They did depose his supervisor though. If they want to know the answers to the questions or add him to the "list of suspicion" wouldn't finding out what he has to say be important?

 

[Bittiness39]

That creates a deja vu moment for yours truly. I well recall that being said, over and over and over, about the Sheppard family.

(Down doggie, down.)

You are absolutely right. KC had nothing to do with anything. She is just a girl in the world falsely accused. Bless her tattered soul. I can't sleep at night knowing she is being held in prison for a crime she didn't commit. Bless her dark soul. Let's all come together and blame me. I did it. I live in Corpus. I totally did it. Kronk had nothing to do with that family or baby before she died.

Who cares how the baby was found? How did the dead baby get there? HMMM...crickets chirp from the defense.The only ones who do are her defenders. KC is guilty. GUILTY.

Oh and where is that exculpatory evidence for KC? THERE IS NONE. I guess her attorneys are just biding their time until the depo of Kronk to roll out their grand sceme. KC is where she deserves to be. And her family is disgusting.

Incidentally, Wudge, I happen to like you.

 

[cecybeans]

That creates a deja vu moment for yours truly. I well recall that being said, over and over and over, about the Sheppard family.

(Down doggie, down.)

If you are referring to the Sam Sheppard case, it was over 50 years ago, he allegedly was injured and he had quite a few character witnesses. I think we're talking apples and oranges here.