In Retrospect-Kronk Believes He Saw Skull In August

[Just Jayla]

Only the bolded part. I dont think anyone can claim authority on dense woods. Millions of people have been in dense woods. From the picture I can see that they are dense. I have much experience in the jungles of the Phillipines and Okinawa to know what a dense woods looks like. I think the problem lies in that Mr Kronk could see it with his eyes, so Why couldn't Mr Cain see it with his eyes. My opinon repectfully submitted.

When I go hunting with my husband, he will regularly point out deer that I could not see, though they were in my line of sight the whole time. And we generally hunt in hardwood forests during the winter, underbrush is dead and matted down, so it's not nearly the challenge that Florida bush is. Yes, the deer are further away, but they are also much larger targets than a 2 year old's skull, and the deer's white heiney stands out against the dead browns of the woods. Getting two pairs of human eyes to see the same thing is not always a cinch.

Do we know that RichCain could not see it, or that he just did not get to it because of the snake? I am sure Cain specifies in his interview, that was a very lazy question for me to ask!

IIRC, one of RK's co-workers did kinda see what he was talking about, but did not think it was a skull. Could be my misinterpretation on that one.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Because Cain didn't look. This is why Cain was fired.

Roy Kronk said he (Cain) might have spent 3 seconds scanning the area. So Cain did look albeit only briefly, but did not see anything. And yes this attributed to the fact that Cain was derelict in his duty and was ultimately terminated for his actions.

 

[marspiter]

Roy Kronk said he (Cain) might have spent 3 seconds scanning the area. So Cain did look albeit only briefly, but did not see anything. And yes this attributed to the fact that Cain was derelict in his duty and was ultimately terminated for his actions.

Ok let me rephrase then for clarity. Cain did not investigate or spend an adequate amount of time looking for the object. I would contest that Cain's "scan" of the area was half-hearted at best and I would constitute that this scan does not count as looking.

So for me the fact that Cain didn't see anything does not mean it wasn't there. To me this situation clearly shows Cain didn't look and that's why he didn't see it.

 

[cecybeans]

Ok let me rephrase then for clarity. Cain did not investigate or spend an adequate amount of time looking for the object. I would contest that Cain's "scan" of the area was half-hearted at best and I would constitute that this scan does not count as looking.

So for me the fact that Cain didn't see anything does not mean it wasn't there. To me this situation clearly shows Cain didn't look and that's why he didn't see it.

And, IIRC, Cain was also disciplined earlier in his career for inadequate attention to detail during an investigation, or something along the same lines.

He seems to have enjoyed doing other things more - like looking into the gas can incident that GA called in. I imagine they gabbed for a while out on the sidewalk.

 

[Harmony 2]

Sorry for the long post but I hope it helps to see the chronology of the activity in the area of Suburban Dr. It helps me to see the whole picture and how Kronk's sightings fit in.

Chronology of Suburban area:

July 19
* Detective Wells interviews Kiomarie Cruz while sitting in vehicle in front of Hidden Oaks Elementary- she tells him of teenage hangout in area of school

http://itsamysterytome.wordpress.com/2008/12/16/kiomarie-cruz-le-interview-transcript/

July 28
* Casey states to Lee -“In my gut she is still OK and it still feels like she is close to home”.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17018486/detail.html

August 4-
* Casey tells her father “She’s close” in a jailhouse visit
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17084757/detail.html

August 5-
* Phil Keating reports about search wooded area at elementary school based on tip

At 2:05 timestamp

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryPNU2v5z9M"]YouTube - Aug 05 2008 - VID00005[/ame]

* Phil Keating reports from Suburban and crew films the area – sited in defense documents- page 6

http://wdbo.com/common/pdf/orlando/AnthonyMotion-8-10-3.pdf

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gNJdDjZrgg"]YouTube - Could Caylee's Remains Have Been Moved?[/ame]

* article states woods near Anthony home were searched by LE using K-9 unit

For the second time in two days, Orange County sheriff's deputies and K-9 units performed a search for Caylee Anthony. Orange County sheriff's deputies on Tuesday requested the assistance of Osceola County's K-9 unit and searched a wooded area near the home of Caylee's grandparents. The search was called off and nothing was believed to have been found, Local 6 News reported.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17169920/detail.html

August 11
* Kronk places first 911 call

August 12
* Kronk places second 911 call

August 13
* Kronk places call to Caylee’s crime tip line

http://www.wftv.com/news/18530327/detail.html

August 18
* Hurricane Faye strikes Orlando area

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Storm_Fay_(2008)

August 27
* TES announces search for Caylee – cannot search Suburban area because it is flooded

November 15
* Dominic Casey searches Suburban wooded area where Caylee’s remains are later discovered
http://www.wesh.com/news/18472776/detail.html

December 11
* Caylee’s remains are found by Roy Kronk

http://www.wesh.com/news/18253946/detail.html

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Post 1145 Excellent post, thank you for the work you put into that post, very informative.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

When I go hunting with my husband, he will regularly point out deer that I could not see, though they were in my line of sight the whole time. And we generally hunt in hardwood forests during the winter, underbrush is dead and matted down, so it's not nearly the challenge that Florida bush is. Yes, the deer are further away, but they are also much larger targets than a 2 year old's skull, and the deer's white heiney stands out against the dead browns of the woods. Getting two pairs of human eyes to see the same thing is not always a cinch.

Do we know that RichCain could not see it, or that he just did not get to it because of the snake? I am sure Cain specifies in his interview, that was a very lazy question for me to ask!

IIRC, one of RK's co-workers did kinda see what he was talking about, but did not think it was a skull. Could be my misinterpretation on that one.

I have been in novelty shops that have those confusing pictures that you have to stand at just the right angle to see. I sometimes can look for an hour and never see it, while my brother walks up and says its right there. So I agree that our eyes play tricks on us.
Roy Kronk said one of his friends with him before the 911 calls looked towards the area Roy saw the skull and said he was crazy.
His friends did not see what Roy saw. Cain didn't see what Roy saw. No searcher, and no LE officers saw what Roy saw.
No one saw what Roy saw, until Dec 11th.
Roys statements to police were inconsistant.
The defense may cross examine Roy on these statements in court. His answers will be interesting in my opinion.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

It is my hope that others do not misunderstand my opinion. I know there is other evidence in this case. I think that Rk is very important to the case. I think if the defense can bring doubt as to when the remains were placed there it will have a major impact on the case. I want someone, anyone to help me find proof the body was indeed there before tropical storm faye. If someone, anyone can do that, then I can put to rest the fear that the defense will use RK against the prosecutors case. I appreciate all who post links. I read the information in those links. I am still looking for something anything that places the remains there other than RK's inconsistant statements. Thanks in advance for any help in attaining this goal. I have read the ME statements that the botonist places the time at a minimum of APPROXIMATELY august 11th being the shortest period of time that the remains could have been there. I am of the opinion that Aug 18th falls within the time frame of a ninimum of approximately august 11th. I think the defense will say that as well.

 

[Rlaub44]

* article states woods near Anthony home were searched by LE using cadaver dogs

Snipped respectfully.

Thank you so much for this compilation. It defintely makes the information easier to follow.

Re: the quote from above - I read "For the second time in two days, Orange County sheriff's deputies and K-9 units performed a search for Caylee Anthony. Orange County sheriff's deputies on Tuesday requested the assistance of Osceola County's K-9 unit and searched a wooded area near the home of Caylee's grandparents. The search was called off and nothing was believed to have been found, Local 6 News reported."

Those K-9's may have been police dogs or rescue dogs. It may be confusing at this point to state for certain that they were cadaver dogs, which have a different training and mission.

Thanks again for your work on this!

 

[Harmony 2]

Snipped respectfully.

Thank you so much for this compilation. It defintely makes the information easier to follow.

Re: the quote from above - I read "For the second time in two days, Orange County sheriff's deputies and K-9 units performed a search for Caylee Anthony. Orange County sheriff's deputies on Tuesday requested the assistance of Osceola County's K-9 unit and searched a wooded area near the home of Caylee's grandparents. The search was called off and nothing was believed to have been found, Local 6 News reported."

Those K-9's may have been police dogs or rescue dogs. It may be confusing at this point to state for certain that they were cadaver dogs, which have a different training and mission.

Thanks again for your work on this!

YVW! Good point!! I will edit and change it to K-9 unit.

 

[marspiter]

I have been in novelty shops that have those confusing pictures that you have to stand at just the right angle to see. I sometimes can look for an hour and never see it, while my brother walks up and says its right there. So I agree that our eyes play tricks on us.
Roy Kronk said one of his friends with him before the 911 calls looked towards the area Roy saw the skull and said he was crazy.
His friends did not see what Roy saw. Cain didn't see what Roy saw. No searcher, and no LE officers saw what Roy saw.
No one saw what Roy saw, until Dec 11th.
Roys statements to police were inconsistant.
The defense may cross examine Roy on these statements in court. His answers will be interesting in my opinion.

The problem is no one other then Roy really looked. I'm sure his co-worker was more or less like yeah your crazy there is nothing there. I seriously doubt the co-worker actually went down there and looked at it with any real effort. I'll have to go back and read that part to see if the co-worker put in a serious effort to look at what Roy was observing.

No searchers or LE were in that exact location to look for Caylee. Due to all of Casey's stories and phone pings LE was still trying to track down the best places to look in, with little to nothing to go on. However searches were slated to begin in that area but were postponed due to the hurricane and subsequent water levels.

This is backed up by the evidence submitted by Mark Nejame on TM's behalf. The only other search that was close to this area that I recall was the BH Casey. His search however was not in the exact location. It was close however, close enough to make people question why he was there and what info he was going on to be in that location. To which we have yet to hear a straight story.

The only other known search "near" that area was the psychic and her dog that got sick. However I think it was established the she was not in that exact area but in another area close by...more towards the school iirc.

So yes is Mr. Kronk's story some what amiss? Yes in parts it seems to be but then again that is pretty common when dealing with eyewitness testimony. Eyewitnesses rarely remember the same thing exactly twice. That and a persons memory can be influenced by many factors. This is not to say that Mr. Kronk has changed his story maliciously, he simply remembered it slightly different then before. Once again this is just common with witnesses.

Hence why I would argue circumstantial scientific evidence is far better.

This is why other factors are going to be used by the SA to pin point when Caylee's body was placed at the site. Evidence such as bone dispersal and plant growth evidence. I'm sure there is also going to be other types of evidence and data collected at the scene such as entomological and meteorological. I will contend we have yet to see all the evidence that the remains site has to reveal.

 

[Spangle]

Cain treated the call like it was from some crack pot. He did the casual look and the pat on the head, and left. Job done.

The area is a classic dump site, considering the suspect is a mother of the young victim. Which would be high on the list for investigators to search. I personally expected the Investigators to keep checking the area, so that they would know when they could get in there and search.

Could such thoughts played into his reasoning for ignoring Kronk? I believe so. Doesn't change anything. It was still his bad.

However, if he did give it a good try, he might have had to look by standing in Kronks same spot,looking in the same direction, and from the same height. Any thing different, the vegetation might block the view. Kronk might have just happened on one of the few advantage points of seeing the bag. The next person who looked would have to use various angles to try and see what he seen. Even then, the vegetation might prevent the person from doing so.

The peek that Cain gave the area shows that he did not seriously attempt to view what Kronk was talking about. He certainly didn't go into the woods to investigate further.

And you can NEVER argue with a cop.

Kronk found Caylee. He just couldn't get anyone official to come get her.

 

[Spangle]

The problem is no one other then Roy really looked. I'm sure his co-worker was more or less like yeah your crazy there is nothing there. I seriously doubt the co-worker actually went down there and looked at it with any real effort. I'll have to go back and read that part to see if the co-worker put in a serious effort to look at what Roy was observing.

No searchers or LE were in that exact location to look for Caylee. Due to all of Casey's stories and phone pings LE was still trying to track down the best places to look in, with little to nothing to go on. However searches were slated to begin in that area but were postponed due to the hurricane and subsequent water levels.

This is backed up by the evidence submitted by Mark Nejame on TM's behalf. The only other search that was close to this area that I recall was the BH Casey. His search however was not in the exact location. It was close however, close enough to make people question why he was there and what info he was going on to be in that location. To which we have yet to hear a straight story.

The only other known search "near" that area was the psychic and her dog that got sick. However I think it was established the she was not in that exact area but in another area close by...more towards the school iirc.

So yes is Mr. Kronk's story some what amiss? Yes in parts it seems to be but then again that is pretty common when dealing with eyewitness testimony. Eyewitnesses rarely remember the same thing exactly twice. That and a persons memory can be influenced by many factors. This is not to say that Mr. Kronk has changed his story maliciously, he simply remembered it slightly different then before. Once again this is just common with witnesses.

Hence why I would argue circumstantial scientific evidence is far better.

This is why other factors are going to be used by the SA to pin point when Caylee's body was placed at the site. Evidence such as bone dispersal and plant growth evidence. I'm sure there is also going to be other types of evidence and data collected at the scene such as entomological and meteorological. I will contend we have yet to see all the evidence that the remains site has to reveal.

I seen that video. The issue came up right after they made a right. Which would be where she was. But they continued driving, while discussing how they were feeling and that the dog was getting sick. All the way down, and turned around. But they did not go into the woods. So I don't consider it a real search. Just a quick drive by and peek a boo. Just 'felt" she was there, but never looked for her, etc.

 

[Rlaub44]

Cain treated the call like it was from some crack pot. He did the casual look and the pat on the head, and left. Job done.

The area is a classic dump site, considering the suspect is a mother of the young victim. Which would be high on the list for investigators to search. I personally expected the Investigators to keep checking the area, so that they would know when they could get in there and search.

Could such thoughts played into his reasoning for ignoring Kronk? I believe so. Doesn't change anything. It was still his bad.

However, if he did give it a good try, he might have had to look by standing in Kronks same spot,looking in the same direction, and from the same height. Any thing different, the vegetation might block the view. Kronk might have just happened on one of the few advantage points of seeing the bag. The next person who looked would have to use various angles to try and see what he seen. Even then, the vegetation might prevent the person from doing so.

The peek that Cain gave the area shows that he did not seriously attempt to view what Kronk was talking about. He certainly didn't go into the woods to investigate further.

And you can NEVER argue with a cop.

Kronk found Caylee. He just couldn't get anyone official to come get her.

BBM

Excellent point. Anyone who has played golf knows that three people can walk right by a ball in the rough before the fourth sees it.

Does that mean that the ball was placed there after the first three missed it? (Well, perhaps that depends on who you play golf with!)

 

[LambChop]

If you look back to those early days on this site about all the theories that were posted here because a MOTHER was too busy having a good time with her friends to report her child missing why would you question that Mr. Kronk did not have the same thoughts we had about finding the child. Any one of us who lived near that neighborhood would have been out checking because we all believed the child was deceased. The video released with KC saying "She's close" guess all of us knew what she meant, just did not know how close. If we knew it, LA knew it, CA, GA, JB, they all knew it. Why do you think JB stopped the visits? KC can not keep her mouth shut. She has to play these games.

Mr. Kronk was investigated by LE and cleared. It is not easy finding the body of a child. Not easy for LE and surely not easy for the average citizen. There is no motive, no access to the child and he did not know KC. Plus why would Mr. Kronk want to frame KC and KC has had plenty of opportunities to speak up but she is shut up tighter than a clam. The minute KC opens her mouth, it's all over and JB knows it!!! JMO

P.S. Some inside information....cops typically do not like to get their shoes dirty.

 

[marspiter]

That and as I stated about the Elizabeth Olten case. Searching for the body would be a crap shoot. In her case LE went all over that area and didn't find her it wasn't until the POI came forward and led them to the body that she was found. Elizabeth also wasn't in the elements for 2 plus months before they searched for her.

Based on the reports from the area it seems as if this place had been used for illegal dumping by others before. So you have heavy vegetation, swamp like conditions, and trash kinda tossed all about the area. Doesn't really make for good search conditions. It's not like she was laying in the middle of a fresh plowed field in Iowa on top of the soil. Now granted once TES got into that area once it was cleared to be searched they might have found her, but then again maybe not. Also how much longer would that have been before she was discovered?

Mr. Kronk did Caylee a great service by finding her. Yes maybe Kronk was interested in this case, and that's why he made more of an effort to look. Then again so was most of Orlando as well as the rest of the country at the time. Does that make Kronk looking for her suspicious?

 

[notthatsmart]

Sorry for the long post but I hope it helps to see the chronology of the activity in the area of Suburban Dr. It helps me to see the whole picture and how Kronk's sightings fit in.

Chronology of Suburban area:

July 19
* Detective Wells interviews Kiomarie Cruz while sitting in vehicle in front of Hidden Oaks Elementary- she tells him of teenage hangout in area of school

http://itsamysterytome.wordpress.com/2008/12/16/kiomarie-cruz-le-interview-transcript/

July 28
* Casey states to Lee -“In my gut she is still OK and it still feels like she is close to home”.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17018486/detail.html

August 4-
* Casey tells her father “She’s close” in a jailhouse visit
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17084757/detail.html

August 5-
* Phil Keating reports about search wooded area at elementary school based on tip

At 2:05 timestamp

YouTube - Aug 05 2008 - VID00005

* Phil Keating reports from Suburban and crew films the area – sited in defense documents- page 6

http://wdbo.com/common/pdf/orlando/AnthonyMotion-8-10-3.pdf

YouTube - Could Caylee's Remains Have Been Moved?

* article states woods near Anthony home were searched by LE using K-9 unit


http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17169920/detail.html

August 11
* Kronk places first 911 call

August 12
* Kronk places second 911 call

August 13
* Kronk places call to Caylee’s crime tip line

http://www.wftv.com/news/18530327/detail.html

August 18
* Hurricane Faye strikes Orlando area

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Storm_Fay_(2008)

August 27
* TES announces search for Caylee – cannot search Suburban area because it is flooded

November 15
* Dominic Casey searches Suburban wooded area where Caylee’s remains are later discovered
http://www.wesh.com/news/18472776/detail.html

December 11
* Caylee’s remains are found by Roy Kronk

http://www.wesh.com/news/18253946/detail.html

Bolded by me. Is the article reffering to Tue and Wed August 12 and 13? If so, they may have been responding to his call without him. That would be much more than officer Cain responding.

 

[cecybeans]

IIRC, the second and third call should be flipped (ie: RK makes initial call to 911 on evening of 8-11, then he calls the crime line on 8-12 to see if follow-up had occurred finds out there is no direct communication between crime line and responding officers to 911 - and finally calls 911 again on 8-13 to meet Cain & co at the site.)

 

[BeanE]

It is my hope that others do not misunderstand my opinion. I know there is other evidence in this case. I think that Rk is very important to the case. I think if the defense can bring doubt as to when the remains were placed there it will have a major impact on the case. I want someone, anyone to help me find proof the body was indeed there before tropical storm faye. If someone, anyone can do that, then I can put to rest the fear that the defense will use RK against the prosecutors case. I appreciate all who post links. I read the information in those links. I am still looking for something anything that places the remains there other than RK's inconsistant statements. Thanks in advance for any help in attaining this goal. I have read the ME statements that the botonist places the time at a minimum of APPROXIMATELY august 11th being the shortest period of time that the remains could have been there. I am of the opinion that Aug 18th falls within the time frame of a ninimum of approximately august 11th. I think the defense will say that as well.

The jury will be instructed on the standard of 'Beyond a Reasonable Doubt'. Key word: reasonable. Jurors can have doubts, and meet the standard.

Although I can think of some bizarre alternatives, such as an imaginary nanny kidnapping Caylee, killing her, and tossing her little body there while KC was in jail, I can think of no alternative to KC placing Caylee's body there in June that is reasonable, logical, and more highly probable true than untrue.

 

[BeanE]

Bolded by me. Is the article reffering to Tue and Wed August 12 and 13? If so, they may have been responding to his call without him. That would be much more than officer Cain responding.

Cain was not the only officer who responded to Kronk's calls. You can find the details of who did and did not respond, why and why not, how, etc, in this helpful LE document which contains, among other things, synopses of interviews with Kronk and the officers who responded:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5429204/Casey-Anthony-Deputy-Richard-Cain