GUILTY IN - Shaylyn Ammerman, 14 mos, Spencer, 23 March 2016 #2

[verbonica]

I responded. Plenty of people in my family drink. But most of them do not get drunk. And if they did, they certainly wouldn't be holding my child. But I am definitely a more cautious/worrier type parent so that's just the way I do things. I also wouldn't want someone I didn't really know holding my child either. When my son was a month old, my BIL came into town for a visit. He brought a friend with him. The friend never held my son (nor did he even ask or attempt to.) He was never left alone with him either.

For the ones in my family who in their younger years used to overdrink sometimes, the LAST thing on their minds was to have to mind a little kid!

 

[MBK]

DENIAL is not just a river in Egypt. :facepalm:

But some people are constitutionally incapable of picking up on red flags.

 

[Hippie Heart]

Well then, we could be twins .

Having said that (though), that's not the scenario (at all) that I outlined.

As far as "drunk" goes, I might consider someone drunk after two beers or a glass of wine, where someone else would not.

The definition of the adjective "drunk" is:

affected by alcohol to the extent of losing control of one's faculties or behavior: "he was so drunk he lurched from wall to wall"
~and~
having drunk so much alcohol that normal actions (such as talking, thinking, and moving) become difficult to do.

So I don't think a person could be drunk after one glass of wine or one drink unless they have a problem with their liver or weigh like 70 pounds and have never had a drink.

Are we debating the issue of KP holding this baby while drunk? Or what is the real issue? I'm sure this family would not have described this man as "drunk" if he wasn't truly drunk.


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[hikerchick]

I know, it is unbelievable. My jaw literally dropped when I read that and remembered that he was supposed to pick up a five year old relative the day after his (alleged) crimes. Or I guess the day of.

 

[MBK]

I'm sure this family would not have described this man as "drunk" if he wasn't truly drunk.
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You've got them down cold. Good point!

 

[Hippie Heart]

You've got them down cold. Good point!

Yeah - given what we've read and what they've said, I think they're pretty familiar with alcohol. IMO it might not be a stretch to say they drink frequently. Not stating that as fact but that's my gut. I'm sure if they said the guy was drunk, he was probably falling down drunk. Not just tipsy.


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[hikerchick]

That was my thought, too. I doubt she would have considered it worth mentioning it if he had only had a drink or two. Honestly, I've let people who had had **advertiser censored* drink handle my babies. That's a far cry from drunk IMO.

 

[Any123]

I'm having a hard time with AA saying he saw a dangling foot.

As a person with bad eye sight, if I don't have my contacts in, I cannot see the TV from my bed, let alone someone outside in the dark. I mean, I would be able to see a person but not a foot from a baby they were holding if they had their back to me. Also, this was at 3am when it is still pretty dark.

I would assume that AA wears glasses all of the time since all the interviews I've seen, he has them on.

All of this just seems really odd to me. MOO

I thought the same thing! Especially since it was also night and he said his vision was blurry from drinking.

 

[ILOKAL]

The definition of the adjective "drunk" is:

affected by alcohol to the extent of losing control of one's faculties or behavior: "he was so drunk he lurched from wall to wall"
~and~
having drunk so much alcohol that normal actions (such as talking, thinking, and moving) become difficult to do.

So I don't think a person could be drunk after one glass of wine or one drink unless they have a problem with their liver or weigh like 70 pounds and have never had a drink.

Are we debating the issue of KP holding this baby while drunk? Or what is the real issue? I'm sure this family would not have described this man as "drunk" if he wasn't truly drunk.


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Another poster also said upthread, that the description of drunk varies, which, IMO,it does. To what degree KP was drunk or if the grandma knows the "true" definition of drunk and used the word accordingly, we don't know. We know she didn't say he lurched from wall to wall, and the only moving she described was he was holding the baby and rocking, so with only her description to go on, we don't know if he was actually drunk.

The only question I'm interested in regarding Kyle's previous interactions with Shaylyn is should those interactions (several have been described) have caused the red flags that most seem to think they should?

 

[Hippie Heart]

I thought the same thing! Especially since it was also night and he said his vision was blurry from drinking.

Interesting. That detail of the story seems so weird. The one thing though is that she was wearing a white sleeper. So maybe if KP was wearing a dark shirt and her foot was dangling down and he wasn't terribly far from the window that AA saw him from, could it have been visible because of it being white?

ETA: I guess we don't know for sure if it was a footed sleeper or if she was wearing socks? I'm assuming her feet were covered because of the time of year and the temperature I assume it would be in Indiana. We're still wearing socks here in California most of the time.
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[LaborDayRN]

I'm honestly not sure just what red flag that should have raised? Many young people drink, do they not? At age 22, is that unusual? Did Uncle Louie, Aunt Mary, and Cousin Irving ever pick up and hold your baby at a gathering after having had a few? Did you ever allow them around your baby again, or did that raise red flags that told you they were dangerous people?

I'm not sure I would compare family relatives to a guy whose last name the entire family claimed not to know.

 

[LaborDayRN]

I have 7 kids. Not once in their lifetime did a drunk person ever hold them as a baby. EVER. I never had my kids in a situation where drunk people could pick them up or hold them. Drunk people can't even hold themselves, they sure as heck aren't going to lay a hand on my kid.

I'm sure it happens, but I'm also sure there are lots of moms like me that would have never allowed it.

I agree 100%.

 

[LaborDayRN]

I agree that many young people drink, but not many are court-ordered into rehab for drugs and alcohol twice in two years. And Kyle isn't an uncle, aunt or cousin; according to Adam he was a "friend of a friend" so not close to the family at all. In the telephone interview Justin said he didn't even know Kyle's last name.

Adam said he's known Kyle for a little less than a year. Here's what Kyle's been doing during that time:

On Jan. 10, 2015, he entered a residential sober living program in Terre Haute, but was booted out a week later for reportedly drinking. “He has two weeks to think about his decision to drink and where his life is going,” program director David Mankin wrote. On April 14, Parker was back in jail to serve 50 days from his probation revocation.

In November, he was sentenced to serve 111 days in jail for violating his probation after a drunken incident in Ellettsville, and was released earlier this month. He has a court date in that case set for April 13 to review how he will repay the county for unpaid fees totaling $1,283, court records show.

http://www.reporter-times.com/it-s-...cle_84aeb2af-7ed6-547e-8786-21d63afe4b62.html

IMO that is a red flag. He even posted about the upcoming court date on his FB so Adam had to be aware of his problems with the law. And alcohol.

I would have no problem banning such a person from my home. At the very least I would ban them when my 14-month-old child was staying in the home. JMO.

:goodpost:

 

[LaborDayRN]

My parents were huge drunks. When my sister was about 3 or 4, my dad had her on his shoulders and dropped her onto a parking lot, breaking her arm. This was in the late 1960s, and nobody made a big deal of it. I am still pretty horrified about it, but because he was allowed to continue to hold her, care for her, and parent her, in spite of this, and was not accused of anything improper, I have a harder time seeing why sitting in a chair holding a child after consuming alcohol is a big deal. If seated, the chance of dropping the child and injuring it seems minor, and "drunk" can be open to interpretation. Was he just a little "tipsy" or was he sitting because he was incapable of standing?

For me, it isn't just about the incident where Kyle was found holding Shaylyn while intoxicated. It's the whole "big picture". Allowing people (I believe LE say it may have been up to 10) come and go in and out of your home with an unlocked door and a baby unprotected in the living room is neglectful in my opinion. Add to that the primary caregivers were asleep, some medicated. I feel horrible for the loss that this family has suffered and I hope they are eventually cleared by LE. But that doesn't negate the fact that there was very little protection provided for this sweet little girl. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Sure, we've all read that NOW. And yes, Adam may have known, but he may not have. In any event, what makes you think the grandma knew? I doubt if Adam DID know he would have told his mother. I have no reason to believe that Adam's mother would have been any more tolerant than most. As for being just a friend (of a friend) it's just fine to include them at the gathering I described. Many such regular gatherings DO include friends and acquaintances. I'm still looking for that "obvious" red flag.

For me, the red flag would be why some drunk guy at my house visiting with my son might be interested in picking up my grand baby. I know it's not sketchy to some people but it sure as heck would be for me. In fact, he wouldn't even be welcome IN my house in that condition but again, that's just me.

 

[Embley]

Interesting. That detail of the story seems so weird. The one thing though is that she was wearing a white sleeper. So maybe if KP was wearing a dark shirt and her foot was dangling down and he wasn't terribly far from the window that AA saw him from, could it have been visible because of it being white?

ETA: I guess we don't know for sure if it was a footed sleeper or if she was wearing socks? I'm assuming her feet were covered because of the time of year and the temperature I assume it would be in Indiana. We're still wearing socks here in California most of the time.
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I also suspect that at this point, after all the commotion and chaos, his memory of Kyle leaving could be "altered". I don't mean he's intentionally lying but him having to recall and detail the memory so many times, sometimes even with leading questions (like "was Kyle carrying anything when he left) have probably made it so that he can't recall the actual memory itself but this morphed version.

I know there is a term for this, but I can't remember what it is. It's definitely something I've experienced though!

 

[DatelineFan]

I know I am coming across badly today, but when a friend of YOURS brings a friend of THEIRS to your home, do you request a photo ID and do a background check before you let them in? It would be prudent, but in practice, WHO DOES THIS? Did the grandmother, step-grandfather, and dad even KNOW about this guy having problems with alcohol and drugs? If I knew a visitor to my home was court-ordered NOT to consume alcohol, I would not let them drink in my home. But if I did NOT know...

I wouldn't ask for ID, but I also wouldn't allow them alone with my kid.

 

[birdsmomma]

Interesting. That detail of the story seems so weird. The one thing though is that she was wearing a white sleeper. So maybe if KP was wearing a dark shirt and her foot was dangling down and he wasn't terribly far from the window that AA saw him from, could it have been visible because of it being white?

ETA: I guess we don't know for sure if it was a footed sleeper or if she was wearing socks? I'm assuming her feet were covered because of the time of year and the temperature I assume it would be in Indiana. We're still wearing socks here in California most of the time.

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I'm not sure, we have not been told if the sleeper had feet or not. I know when I think of a sleeper, I imagine them with feet but I do remember my own daughter had sleepers without the feet and when she started getting to the age that she could remove the sleeper, she would because she got too hot. That's when I started getting her the footless sleepers so she would keep them on! We live in the STL area so pretty much the same weather as IN and it has really been unseasonably warm lately.

I know myself as a contact wearer and someone who has to wear them all the time to see, I could not see farther than about 4 feet in front of me, less distance if it is dark, but I could have way worse eyes than AA, so that might mean nothing.

 

[DatelineFan]

Yeah - given what we've read and what they've said, I think they're pretty familiar with alcohol. IMO it might not be a stretch to say they drink frequently. Not stating that as fact but that's my gut. I'm sure if they said the guy was drunk, he was probably falling down drunk. Not just tipsy.


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Yep, I agree. Remember, Adam said something along the lines of, he wasn't drunk but he was "a little" over his limit and had sleepy eyes from alcohol. Um, what? You weren't drunk but you couldn't see clearly? I think it's safe to say that "drunk" to them is stumbling around.

 

[Ontario Mom]

No, no, it seems as though you ARE typical. In my scenario survey, three have responded and all three are teatotlers with teatotler family and friends. Who knew? I should have presented this survey to a different venue!��

Not sure if you're including me in the 3 or not but if so, you've got it wrong My point is simply this: whether one drinks or not, or has friends that drink or not, there are plenty of parents that would never think it okay for a drunk friend of the family to be picking up their kid, and would never allow it. OR have drunks around their kids to do it in the first place.

What we DON'T know is how grandma responded when she allegedly found a drunk KP rocking Shaylyn to sleep. Maybe she cussed him out? Maybe she shrugged and went in the other room. We have no idea because it hasn't been stated in MSM how that really went over - nor was it ever even mentioned until after she'd already mentioned what a helpful person he was.

Clearly, this family has a completely different set of standards than a lot of others and that's likely the reason so many find it so bizarre.