GUILTY IN - Shaylyn Ammerman, 14 mos, Spencer, 23 March 2016 #2

[skibaboo]

Sorry if already posted

In Memory Of Shaylyn Ammerman (Obituary)

 

[pepelepolecat]

Of what I have read here I would say that the Morgan/Ammerman family is a dysfunctional family, be it because of a history of alcoholism, drug use, mental illness/disabilites, or for some other reasons, and it's very possible that the family/ies have been dysfunctional for several generations. For a person having grown up in a dysfunctional family, it's difficult to know and understand the rules for what is considered as normal behaviour, and to be able to "read" other people and to understand their non-verbal behaviour. What most people consider "normal" when it comes to how to take care of a child, to see to the safety of a child, whom to allow near or allow to handle the child, is most likely not things that come naturally to people from dysfunctional families, especially if it's not how they and their children had been brought up. If having a lackadaisical upbringing had been ok with the parents/grandparents, the family members today would probably not see any reason why it wouldn't be ok bringing up the little girl in the same manner.

I don't know if the majority of people here comes from "normal"/non-dysfunctional families or not, but to me it seems that most of those who have comment doesn't truly understand how it can be to grow up in a dysfunctional family, that what is considered as "normal" within a dysfunctional family is not the same as what society at large and people from non-dysfunctional families take for granted when it comes to "normal" (and acceptable) behaviour in today's world when it comes to how live and to how to bring up a small child.

This is MOO.

bbm -- That's quite a presumption.

And that's moo.

 

[LisaB]

Did any of the parents take their child and leave? Did any of the parents drink at the party? In your scenario, the "fault" (if any) would not just lie with the party giver, but also with the party goers who, well, partied! IMO

Most parents attending had beers in their hands. I later learned it was not at all uncommon to serve parents alcohol (it was 10am on a Saturday!!!) so we always had our daughter's parties at McDonalds or Chuck E Cheese where that was not an option/issue. I was never a big drinker, and when I found I was pregnant I stopped drinking, and did not drink at all until she was 10 years old, when I'd have one or two now and then, but generally on the weekends she was with her dad.

At this point (52 years old) I have one or two beers when we go camping or to a bonfire (country girl, sorry) or while working in the garden, approximately once a month or less.

 

[LisaB]

Yeah - given what we've read and what they've said, I think they're pretty familiar with alcohol. IMO it might not be a stretch to say they drink frequently. Not stating that as fact but that's my gut. I'm sure if they said the guy was drunk, he was probably falling down drunk. Not just tipsy.


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To my understanding, nobody has even mentioned the grandmother having had any alcohol the night Shaylyn disappeared. For all we know, she may be a teetotaller (sometimes people who have drinkers in the family DO abstain), so her definition of "drunk" is unclear.

 

[courtneyb]

The blame definitely lies with KP but this was almost definitely preventable! By just not allowing a man you barely know to have access to your child while you aren't there/present/asleep, whatever to protect her!

The blame lies with KP, but damn it..they didn't have to make it easy for him.

I hope instead of this distancing they are doing from any culpability, that they would LEARN from this because almost certainly there will be more children in that home or with those adults at some point. I don't want to see them punished at all. They are surely suffering. I'm just sick of parents failing to protect their babies.


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[Ontario Mom]

Boy am I ever glad I missed that kitten discussion.

 

[flourish]

I feel horrible for these people, I wouldn't wish this situation on my worst enemy. I cannot IMAGINE their grief. But unless these people are monsters, how could they not say to themselves My God!! If only we hadn't passed out drunk!

Of COURSE they are not behavioral analyst level security people, who is? Of course I don't ID everyone who enters my door. But no FREAKING WAY an I going to pass out drunk while a friend-of-a-friend acquaintance is up drinking alone in my house and my baby is right there!


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We don't know that they aren't saying that to themselves.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Of what I have read here I would say that the Morgan/Ammerman family is a dysfunctional family, be it because of a history of alcoholism, drug use, mental illness/disabilites, or for some other reasons, and it's very possible that the family/ies have been dysfunctional for several generations. For a person having grown up in a dysfunctional family, it's difficult to know and understand the rules for what is considered as normal behaviour, and to be able to "read" other people and to understand their non-verbal behaviour. What most people consider "normal" when it comes to how to take care of a child, to see to the safety of a child, whom to allow near or allow to handle the child, is most likely not things that come naturally to people from dysfunctional families, especially if it's not how they and their children had been brought up. If having a lackadaisical upbringing had been ok with the parents/grandparents, the family members today would probably not see any reason why it wouldn't be ok bringing up the little girl in the same manner.

I don't know if the majority of people here comes from "normal"/non-dysfunctional families or not, but to me it seems that most of those who have comment doesn't truly understand how it can be to grow up in a dysfunctional family, that what is considered as "normal" within a dysfunctional family is not the same as what society at large and people from non-dysfunctional families take for granted when it comes to "normal" (and acceptable) behaviour in today's world when it comes to how live and to how to bring up a small child.

This is MOO.

Excellent post. This is what I was trying to say a couple days ago but did so poorly! I really don't think they knew any better. And I'm one who is usually pounding the negligent parent point home over and over again (Jenise Wright's case, for example).

Everyone is freaked out about him holding the baby, but I don't think it was a big red flag. Many toddlers love new people and attention, and they'll climb right up in anyone's lap. Others are timid and won't even sit with their grandparents until they've had an hour to warm up to them. Shaylyn has been described as friendly and happy, so probably she went over to him and wanted to be held. So he picked her up and held her, and happened to be in a rocking chair.

I think it's possible, likely even, that AA reported possibly seeing the child's foot immediately, but the info was withheld during the search. Then once she was found he talked about it.

 

[Hippie Heart]

I just want to thank several of you -not naming names but you know who you are- for so eloquently and effectively making the same point I was trying to make regarding the situation being preventable. I was ready to take a break from this last night so my post wasn't quite as succinct as some of the ones I've read this morning. <3


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[Hippie Heart]

We don't know that they aren't saying that to themselves.

No, we don't. But my comment was in the context of responding to comments that there was no way this could've been prevented therefore the family has no role in this. I'm sure they don't feel that way. I'm sure they are devastated that they let this happen.

Yes, I said let. I doubt KP would've snatched the baby and made a run for it in a room of awake and coherent adults.


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[Butler]

You don't wait to know that a person is a potential threat to take precaution. Dad bears the responsibility for the safety of his child. He got drunk and passed out, leaving his baby girl unprotected and at the mercy of other drunken men - one her own uncle who was so drunk he couldn't SEE. This wasn't the uncle's first drinking rodeo, dad knew what kind of person he was and what kind of person Kyle was. It isn't rocket science. He was completely irresponsible and woefully negligent and his baby suffered from his stupidity.

Can you link where JA was "drunk and passed out"? From what I've read JA wasn't drinking that night, only AA and the step-grandfather.

Could this family have done things differently? Sure. I would guess they are wishing they had done a lot of things differently now.

 

[courtneyb]

Boy am I ever glad I missed that kitten discussion.

The kittens are fine. I checked. [emoji6]


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[BetteDavisEyes]

Slain 1-year-old Shaylyn Ammerman laid to rest

Michael Anthony Adams, michael.adams@indystar.com 11:54 p.m. EDT March 30, 2016

Shaylyn Ammerman, the 1-year-old girl who was brutally raped and smothered to death last week, was laid to rest Wednesday, March 30, at the Christian Life Center in Spencer, Ind.

Throughout the afternoon and evening, hundreds filed into the center, most leaving with wet eyes and their faces buried in the arms of a friend or loved one...

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...-old-funeral-services-set-wednesday/82439258/

 

[TeaTime]

This baby was tortured and murdered because her father, uncle, grandmother and step-grandfather failed to protect her by using common sense. I really don't care that this may be a 'dsyfunctional' family; none of them were savagely raped and murdered - they all woke up in the morning.

 

[birdsmomma]

It really bothers me that you have two grown men living with momma and step-dad, sharing a room, having friends over and drinking to all hours of the morning.

On AA's facebook page, in the about field, it says "[FONT=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Im a single man in need of some love". But you still live with momma!??[/FONT]

I'm just thinking what we all find as "abnormal behavior" is not what the Ammermans would call abnormal behavior. If it is normal to share a bedroom with your adult brother, normal not to work, normal to live at home with momma still, normal to drink to all hours of the night with "friend of a friend" on a TUESDAY night, then to me, they seem to have a very broad definition of normal. So broad in fact that I think the "red flags" to us, could have smacked them in the face and they would have still seen them as yellow flags! I'm not defending them by any means. I do not understand this family, something really seems off to me but it could just be because we live such different lives.

All of this MOO

 

[Hippie Heart]

I've been thinking about the negligence issue over and over in my head.

Let's say that there were no red flags. No reason to be suspicious or look sideways at an acquaintance who says Coochie Coochie coo to the baby and holds her and rocks her. Fine.

It's a HUGE leap between someone saying hi baby and handing the baby a pacifier or bottle if they're crying or picking them up and assuming it's ok TO PASS OUT DRUNK WHILE THIS ACQUAINTANCE IS IN YOUR HOUSE.

The family said they knew him less than a year, and as another poster pointed out he was in jail or some kind of program for approximately half that time. For all we know, the 10 or 12 times he came over could've just been for a few minutes or briefly stopping by. Even if it wasn't, even if he spent hours at the house, please see my above paragraph.

And please, please, don't quote me and say provide a link for him saying Coochie Coochie coo and picking her up. That is just me making up a scenario based on how they described him interacting with the baby.

So even with no knowledge of *advertiser censored*, no red flags, it is still not sound judgement to let the ("nice polite") man whom you don't really know well have full access to your house and baby at 2 in the morning while all FOUR adults are asleep, taking sleeping meds, or passed out drunk. Even if they are "different".

Seriously. For the love of God. IT'S NOT OK.


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[Irisha]

Adam Ammerman also told police that his mother walked into the house one day and found Kyle Parker sitting in a rocking chair drunk, holding Shaylyn in his lap. He told police Kyle liked to watch pornographic movies which featured people being spanked. Police interviewed some of Kyle Parker's other friends, who said he liked pornographic videos with sadistic and masochistic themes, and that Kyle Parker was attracted to younger girls 12 to 14 years old, something Parker denied when he was being questioned by police later.

http://www.wthr.com/story/31576523/kyle-parker-charged-with-rape-murder-child-molestation-in-shaylyn-ammerman-case

 

[tlcya]

It really bothers me that you have two grown men living with momma and step-dad, sharing a room, having friends over and drinking to all hours of the morning.

On AA's facebook page, in the about field, it says "Im a single man in need of some love". But you still live with momma!??

I'm just thinking what we all find as "abnormal behavior" is not what the Ammermans would call abnormal behavior. If it is normal to share a bedroom with your adult brother, normal not to work, normal to live at home with momma still, normal to drink to all hours of the night with "friend of a friend" on a TUESDAY night, then to me, they seem to have a very broad definition of normal. So broad in fact that I think the "red flags" to us, could have smacked them in the face and they would have still seen them as yellow flags! I'm not defending them by any means. I do not understand this family, something really seems off to me but it could just be because we live such different lives.

All of this MOO

Please provide a link to the two adult brothers sharing a bedroom. You will not find it because it does not exist.

This is exactly how rumor and misconception grows legs to morph into fact.

ETA facts

&#8220;There is only one way in and out of our house, the front door, because the other door is blocked by her father&#8217;s bed. No one could get through the windows, because there is furniture in front of every window,&#8221; she noted. &#8220;They had to walk in the front door, or out the front door, with her.&#8221;

http://www.spencereveningworld.com/...ssing_Toddler_Found_Thursday_Northeast_O.html

Justin Ammerman does not have a "bedroom" in the home, shared or otherwise. He apparently uses another space as his sleeping area.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I've been thinking about the negligence issue over and over in my head.

Let's say that there were no red flags. No reason to be suspicious or look sideways at an acquaintance who says Coochie Coochie coo to the baby and holds her and rocks her. Fine.

It's a HUGE leap between someone saying hi baby and handing the baby a pacifier or bottle if they're crying or picking them up and assuming it's ok TO PASS OUT DRUNK WHILE THIS ACQUAINTANCE IS IN YOUR HOUSE.

The family said they knew him less than a year, and as another poster pointed out he was in jail or some kind of program for approximately half that time. For all we know, the 10 or 12 times he came over could've just been for a few minutes or briefly stopping by. Even if it wasn't, even if he spent hours at the house, please see my above paragraph.

And please, please, don't quote me and say provide a link for him saying Coochie Coochie coo and picking her up. That is just me making up a scenario based on how they described him interacting with the baby.

So even with no knowledge of *advertiser censored*, no red flags, it is still not sound judgement to let the ("nice polite") man whom you don't really know well have full access to your house and baby at 2 in the morning while all FOUR adults are asleep, taking sleeping meds, or passed out drunk. Even if they are "different".

Seriously. For the love of God. IT'S NOT OK.


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I've been thinking about it too and I can only conclude that since this is the way they live, it's likely a generational thing in that, this is just how these folks live, raise their kids, and then how their kids raise their own kids, and so on. I once knew a family who thought nothing of letting their 1 year old crawl around on a kitchen floor that was so nasty, so filthy, so cluttered with garbage, piles of clothes and God knows what all else. I didn't know the parents well at all (friends of late hubby) and had never been to their house before but we were invited to a bbq there so we took our kids and went. As soon as I saw the inside of the house (literally every room I saw was full of dirty dishes, garbage, toys, broken and unbroken, piles of dirty clothes, etc.) I told my kids to get outside - and stay outside. They happily obliged. This family wouldn't have known a red flag if a parade of them marched through the house and danced on their heads. Discussed it after we left with hubby and he told me the husband of the couple used to live exactly the same way as a younger person at his mom's house but he had no idea he was still like that until we went to their house. So like the old saying goes "kids live what they learn".

 

[Ontario Mom]

Please provide a link to the two adult brothers sharing a bedroom. You will not find it because it does not exist.

This is exactly how rumor and misconception grows legs to morph into fact.

ETA facts

&#8220;There is only one way in and out of our house, the front door, because the other door is blocked by her father&#8217;s bed. No one could get through the windows, because there is furniture in front of every window,&#8221; she noted. &#8220;They had to walk in the front door, or out the front door, with her.&#8221;

http://www.spencereveningworld.com/...ssing_Toddler_Found_Thursday_Northeast_O.html

Justin Ammerman does not have a "bedroom" in the home, shared or otherwise. He apparently uses another space as his sleeping area.

THANK YOU. The amount of rumor or misinformation in this thread is really frustrating. I get that sometimes we all goof, but for whatever reason this particular case seems to be a magnet for these things.