Interim discussion regarding questions from the jury and Arias on the stand #81

[KMouse]

If it was a woman brandishing a knife at me while I was in that enclosure I would close the door and hold it first, think about the situation, talk to the attacker, come up with a plan and proceed once I had more control of the situation. I would want to use the door for my defense and hit the woman with it when the time was right.

I think she started her attack when Travis was stepping out of the shower drying himself off.

 

[Mykeru]

BBM - which is why I believe he was stabbed first, the shot to the head was to "finish him off" cause he could have been making noises as air was escaping his throat.
If he WERE shot in the head first, got out and went to the mirror, there would be a crap ton more blood.

I am sticking with my theory, she stabbed him in the chest, he put his hands out to defend himself (defensive wonds on his hands) as he was getting out of the shower. I DO think he went to the mirror/sink, but only to balance himself and mybe catch his breath type of move, coughing up blood and then she continued to stab him in the back. At that point I think he dropped to his knees (she said he was crawling on his knees.... little bit of truth in every lie) trying to get to the door and she stood above him stabbing him more as he got closer to the carpet, where she lifted his head and slit his throat. She then drags him back to the shower, tosses him in and shoots him in the head.

JMO

Again: I watch stuff so nice people don't have to. The gasping, gurgling agonal breathing of someone with their throat cut is unforgettable, just simply horrifying. If Jodi Arias wasn't already "freaked out" that would put her over the edge because the sound is so pointless. Someone with their throat cut has almost no chance of surviving, loses consciousness within 30 seconds, but the body persists and keeps trying. It's futility in action.

The way you describe the sequence of events is pretty much how I interpret them.

One thing I did notice was the possible relationship between the change in orientation of the back stab wounds and Jodi Arias cutting herself as the knife slipped.

In which case that slip might have given Travis Alexander enough time to make it, stumbling or crawling, down the hall, with Jodi after him, the mixed-blood left palm edge print caused by her having to chase after him and stabilize herself against the wall that momentum would carry her against.

Of course, that's supposition. I don't think even the aspirated blood in the sink represents anything we would think of as a "pause". A rage attack and victim's flight would be a flurry of continuous motion.

 

[InTheGarden]

Most people are focusing on the trip to Cancun as the trigger for setting JA off. I believe it was the messages from TA on 5/26 stating that she was evil and the worst thing that ever happened to him that doomed him. Whatever she did to provoke these 5/26 messages is the key to the reason behind this murder. JA was in fear of being exposed for whatever she had done.

Also, I have to say something about all these "cheating on me" statements. The only way someone can cheat on you is if you are engaged to be married or are married to the person cheating. Single people who date (and I mean date and not sleeping together) are usually looking for a long term marriage partner. They are free to date as many people as they seem fit and are not "cheating" on each other. There is no committment unless you are engaged or married.

 

[katiedid2]

Is anyone positive that JM knows about the back of the t-shirt? If only the pictures were seen by all attorneys and the expert witnesses, this might be a logical conclusion (possessve, controlling). If JM has not seen (or heard of) the actual, physical t-shirt, we might have a serious glitch in rebuttal.

I do not think that travis made those nor sent them to her. I agree with Martinez this was done after his passing away snark!
It's more consistent with something she would do. I think the defence helped her to create this story. The sex stories were created by nurmi the sex atty

 

[callyn]

If it was a woman brandishing a knife at me while I was in that enclosure I would close the door and hold it first, think about the situation, talk to the attacker, come up with a plan and proceed once I had more control of the situation. I would want to use the door for my defense and hit the woman with it when the time was right.

I don't think she was "brandishing" the knife. She may have waited until he was standing up, maybe drying his hair-the towel would have blocked his view-or she kept the knife hidden until she attacked. Totally hidden, then a sudden, violent stab to the heart. The track of that wound I believe is slightly upward, which would jibe with him being standing. No time to close the door. This is of course just my thoughts on the subject, one of the many possible scenarios. MOO

 

[beeshie]

Jodi took photo's of DB in the shower without his knowlege, so why not Travis also?

If she had killed Daryl I might consider this a valid argument (as part of her M.O.)

Also, you ignored the evidence I provided that he knew the pictures were being taken. Thank you for responding, though! I like to hear the different theories people have.

 

[Magoo72]

Not to seem weird, in some pictures of Travis, he looks like my son. It really creeps me out.

That was one of the reasons I got so sucked into the CA case from the beginning. Caylee and my little one were born in the same time period and looked eerily alike. I still take a second glance when her pic is in so many sigs on here.

 

[rose222]

Keep in mind Mormonattorney's wonderful post exploring the world of parents of sociopathic and/or psychopathic children.

I am a parent of a sociopath as Mormonattorney describes. I would like you to know that after years of struggling, you become somewhat numb yourself. There is shame you feel that somehow this violent person is the result of some mistake you made. My son (the one who is now deceased) was literally born that way--crying and crying, refusing the breast, inconsolable, angry. After he cried once for ten straight hours, I took him to the doctor (this was in the sixties). The doctor offered to enlarge his urethra, thinking he might be in pain. I declined that as just a stab in the dark. Nobody knew what was wrong with him.

By three years old he overturned furniture, pulled drawers out and turned them upside down, climbed on the kitchen counter and threw cans down...By five he was taking kitchen knives and stabbing boxes in the garage. By eight he stabbed his brother by dropping an "arrow" on his little brother's back in the bathtub to see the blood go in the water. He had fashioned this arrow from a chandelier (since I had long before removed knives from the kitchen). I was terrified--the house was full of children who were all vulnerable.

When he was six, I took him to a prominent child psychiatrist at Stanford. He said my son was the most violent child he had ever analyzed and he warned me that he would probably be institutionalized by the time he was ten. I suffered from hyper-vigilance, never knowing a good night's sleep.

He was brilliant, model-level handsome and grew to be six foot four. Violence was his entertainment. Other people suffering was hilarious to him, including mine.

I felt shame and never told anybody about most of the incidents. As he became more dangerous, I called police. I called my Mormon bishop. I sought professional help. The police didn't take me seriously--and there is nothing to be done. No help other than sending him to a school for deviant boys, which we did. It didn't help either.

This is a nightmare for parents. My husband left--it was just too much, leaving me to raise seven children alone. I did my best, but wasn't very available emotionally for the other children and they have suffered as a result.

The sociopath can be showed the evidence plain as day, the parent saying, "I found this marijuana in your room under your mattress," and the child shrugs and says, "It's not mine. I don't know how it got there. Are there any more muffins?"

My child was so charming and so charismatic that he even convinced a social worker that I was mentally ill and persecuting him. I had to present documents from previous admissions, psychiatric treatment to prove I deserved more credibility than the psychopathic teenager!

Mormonattorney describes exactly the cool willingness a parent must have to patiently sit through the lies and wait for the break. I am awed with admiration that she chooses to work with these difficult and unrewarding sociopathic children.

I also saw flashes of the manipulative child Jodi Arias and I don't judge her mother or aunt. You have called everyone. You have done everything. Your child has stolen your car, climbed out windows, pawned your wedding ring, sold your skis, and broken your heart--all with a shrug. There is a gallows humor that helps you survive when you have been through hell raising a hellion. For all you know, they are whispering, "This reminds me of the time she told that ridiculous story about a ninja stealing the car she took."

The mother and the aunt see their child getting what she deserves. She is being publicly humiliated by her manipulations and lying not working. It is a form of justice for them, too, you know. They always said she would end up in jail. Their behavior is not classy, of course, but they have barred her from their home and distanced themselves from her for years. They may also have the genes for sociopathy. She is the classic "bad seed" and if they can benefit in any way from her celebrity, in their view, she owes them.

Unfortunately, to the sociopath, notoriety and celebrity are the same. It is attention, which she can't get by working hard and succeeding because that would be bowing to authority. In her mind, being the most important prisoner is better than being a nobody waiting tables in Yreka.

Which is why I want her on death row, where there is no opportunity to strut and be Queen of the Scene.

Thank you for sharing. Great post.

 

[lilyet]

Keep in mind Mormonattorney's wonderful post exploring the world of parents of sociopathic and/or psychopathic children.

I am a parent of a sociopath as Mormonattorney describes. I would like you to know that after years of struggling, you become somewhat numb yourself. There is shame you feel that somehow this violent person is the result of some mistake you made. My son (the one who is now deceased) was literally born that way--crying and crying, refusing the breast, inconsolable, angry. After he cried once for ten straight hours, I took him to the doctor (this was in the sixties). The doctor offered to enlarge his urethra, thinking he might be in pain. I declined that as just a stab in the dark. Nobody knew what was wrong with him.

By three years old he overturned furniture, pulled drawers out and turned them upside down, climbed on the kitchen counter and threw cans down...By five he was taking kitchen knives and stabbing boxes in the garage. By eight he stabbed his brother by dropping an "arrow" on his little brother's back in the bathtub to see the blood go in the water. He had fashioned this arrow from a chandelier (since I had long before removed knives from the kitchen). I was terrified--the house was full of children who were all vulnerable.

When he was six, I took him to a prominent child psychiatrist at Stanford. He said my son was the most violent child he had ever analyzed and he warned me that he would probably be institutionalized by the time he was ten. I suffered from hyper-vigilance, never knowing a good night's sleep.

He was brilliant, model-level handsome and grew to be six foot four. Violence was his entertainment. Other people suffering was hilarious to him, including mine.

I felt shame and never told anybody about most of the incidents. As he became more dangerous, I called police. I called my Mormon bishop. I sought professional help. The police didn't take me seriously--and there is nothing to be done. No help other than sending him to a school for deviant boys, which we did. It didn't help either.

This is a nightmare for parents. My husband left--it was just too much, leaving me to raise seven children alone. I did my best, but wasn't very available emotionally for the other children and they have suffered as a result.

The sociopath can be showed the evidence plain as day, the parent saying, "I found this marijuana in your room under your mattress," and the child shrugs and says, "It's not mine. I don't know how it got there. Are there any more muffins?"

My child was so charming and so charismatic that he even convinced a social worker that I was mentally ill and persecuting him. I had to present documents from previous admissions, psychiatric treatment to prove I deserved more credibility than the psychopathic teenager!

Mormonattorney describes exactly the cool willingness a parent must have to patiently sit through the lies and wait for the break. I am awed with admiration that she chooses to work with these difficult and unrewarding sociopathic children.

I also saw flashes of the manipulative child Jodi Arias and I don't judge her mother or aunt. You have called everyone. You have done everything. Your child has stolen your car, climbed out windows, pawned your wedding ring, sold your skis, and broken your heart--all with a shrug. There is a gallows humor that helps you survive when you have been through hell raising a hellion. For all you know, they are whispering, "This reminds me of the time she told that ridiculous story about a ninja stealing the car she took."

The mother and the aunt see their child getting what she deserves. She is being publicly humiliated by her manipulations and lying not working. It is a form of justice for them, too, you know. They always said she would end up in jail. Their behavior is not classy, of course, but they have barred her from their home and distanced themselves from her for years. They may also have the genes for sociopathy. She is the classic "bad seed" and if they can benefit in any way from her celebrity, in their view, she owes them.

Unfortunately, to the sociopath, notoriety and celebrity are the same. It is attention, which she can't get by working hard and succeeding because that would be bowing to authority. In her mind, being the most important prisoner is better than being a nobody waiting tables in Yreka.

Which is why I want her on death row, where there is no opportunity to strut and be Queen of the Scene.

Great Post!!!!! I get very irritated watching mom and aunt, they annoy me because of their smiles and laughing and whispering sessions. The rumor, if true, about mom selling letters to Nat. Enquire bothers me. Truly, I would never want to walk a day in their shoes. I felt that way with George and Cindy. I do not have the Arias family dynamics history so it is hard to say where they are coming from and what their experiences raising Jodi were. Thanks for the post.

 

[katiedid2]

I think she started her attack when Travis was stepping out of the shower drying himself off.

Possibly while he was shaving? That's how the knife wounds to the back came from?

 

[thefragile7393]

Keep in mind Mormonattorney's wonderful post exploring the world of parents of sociopathic and/or psychopathic children.

I am a parent of a sociopath as Mormonattorney describes. I would like you to know that after years of struggling, you become somewhat numb yourself. There is shame you feel that somehow this violent person is the result of some mistake you made. My son (the one who is now deceased) was literally born that way--crying and crying, refusing the breast, inconsolable, angry. After he cried once for ten straight hours, I took him to the doctor (this was in the sixties). The doctor offered to enlarge his urethra, thinking he might be in pain. I declined that as just a stab in the dark. Nobody knew what was wrong with him.

By three years old he overturned furniture, pulled drawers out and turned them upside down, climbed on the kitchen counter and threw cans down...By five he was taking kitchen knives and stabbing boxes in the garage. By eight he stabbed his brother by dropping an "arrow" on his little brother's back in the bathtub to see the blood go in the water. He had fashioned this arrow from a chandelier (since I had long before removed knives from the kitchen). I was terrified--the house was full of children who were all vulnerable.

When he was six, I took him to a prominent child psychiatrist at Stanford. He said my son was the most violent child he had ever analyzed and he warned me that he would probably be institutionalized by the time he was ten. I suffered from hyper-vigilance, never knowing a good night's sleep.

He was brilliant, model-level handsome and grew to be six foot four. Violence was his entertainment. Other people suffering was hilarious to him, including mine.

I felt shame and never told anybody about most of the incidents. As he became more dangerous, I called police. I called my Mormon bishop. I sought professional help. The police didn't take me seriously--and there is nothing to be done. No help other than sending him to a school for deviant boys, which we did. It didn't help either.

This is a nightmare for parents. My husband left--it was just too much, leaving me to raise seven children alone. I did my best, but wasn't very available emotionally for the other children and they have suffered as a result.

The sociopath can be showed the evidence plain as day, the parent saying, "I found this marijuana in your room under your mattress," and the child shrugs and says, "It's not mine. I don't know how it got there. Are there any more muffins?"

My child was so charming and so charismatic that he even convinced a social worker that I was mentally ill and persecuting him. I had to present documents from previous admissions, psychiatric treatment to prove I deserved more credibility than the psychopathic teenager!

Mormonattorney describes exactly the cool willingness a parent must have to patiently sit through the lies and wait for the break. I am awed with admiration that she chooses to work with these difficult and unrewarding sociopathic children.

I also saw flashes of the manipulative child Jodi Arias and I don't judge her mother or aunt. You have called everyone. You have done everything. Your child has stolen your car, climbed out windows, pawned your wedding ring, sold your skis, and broken your heart--all with a shrug. There is a gallows humor that helps you survive when you have been through hell raising a hellion. For all you know, they are whispering, "This reminds me of the time she told that ridiculous story about a ninja stealing the car she took."

The mother and the aunt see their child getting what she deserves. She is being publicly humiliated by her manipulations and lying not working. It is a form of justice for them, too, you know. They always said she would end up in jail. Their behavior is not classy, of course, but they have barred her from their home and distanced themselves from her for years. They may also have the genes for sociopathy. She is the classic "bad seed" and if they can benefit in any way from her celebrity, in their view, she owes them.

Unfortunately, to the sociopath, notoriety and celebrity are the same. It is attention, which she can't get by working hard and succeeding because that would be bowing to authority. In her mind, being the most important prisoner is better than being a nobody waiting tables in Yreka.

Which is why I want her on death row, where there is no opportunity to strut and be Queen of the Scene.

Your experience reminds me of what i have seen where I work many many times. They are so emotionally draining and exhausting just to work with for 12 hours-I can't imagine living with them. Adults is hard enough but seeing a kid/teen like this is worse. We have a huge "blame the parent" mentality in this country. There is a ton of bad parenting but bad parenting is not the cause of everything. People have no clue what its like to go through what you and other parents have endured. I truly feel for you and others who have endured this.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Ranchgirl]

As you mentioned the .25 and a .357 are totally different as far as power. The .25 is notoriously small and is basically 1 step up from a .22. But even though we know they can do a lot of damage too, it is the trajectory path that the bullet followed that is important. From what little I remember hearing about the path I seem to recall it missed most of his brain. I think it did hit his sinus cavities.

But in any event, there are tons of cases of people being shot and still having the wherewithall to keep moving for some period of time. It all depends and each case is totally different.

I dont want to bring up the chicken that lived for some months without its head again.

Not trying to convince anyone differently but I think the shot came first for a lot of reasons. One main reason is she brought the gun there and for her it would be the easiest way to kill him without getting too close to him and risk him stopping her. I think she brought it there and used it as her primary weapon. When the shell jammed, it ruined her initial plan.

By the way, small caliber guns like the .25 are notorious for jamming when you dont buy shells that have extra gunpowder. She would not have known that probably. I always buy special shells for all my semi-autos and it helps prevent gun jamming. It is the number of grains of powder that is listed on the box that you have to know what is regular and what is above average to use.

FYI ..the ME said the bullet did not go through sinus cavity..went through brain which means immediate incapacitation. He was very sure about this. Just watched his testimony again.

 

[G&AMom]

Most people are focusing on the trip to Cancun as the trigger for setting JA off. I believe it was the messages from TA on 5/26 stating that she was evil and the worst thing that ever happened to him that doomed him. Whatever she did to provoke these 5/26 messages is the key to the reason behind this murder. JA was in fear of being exposed for whatever she had done.

Also, I have to say something about all these "cheating on me" statements. The only way someone can cheat on you is if you are engaged to be married or are married to the person cheating. Single people who date (and I mean date and not sleeping together) are usually looking for a long term marriage partner. They are free to date as many people as they seem fit and are not "cheating" on each other. There is no committment unless you are engaged or married.

I agree with you on both points, although I think her belief that Mimi was going to Cancun with him as a girlfriend was a factor. Just not the motivating factor.

As to your second point, I notice at one point when JM was questioning Jodi, he brought up her breakup with Matt, that he had been cheating on her. She got what I can only call a deadly serious look in her eye, saying yes it was a trust issue. It's clear that she feels people betraying her deserve what she gives them. But like the family-values politician who is cheating on his wife, she worries about betrayal because she knows she herself does it all the time.

 

[Hopeful One]

I have asked several times, but can't get a response that makes sense...why would Jodi take pictures of Travis in the shower without his knowledge? Nothing about this hypothesis makes sense to me. I can't understand why people think Jodi would have done this especially since neither side has suggested It. And no, I don't accept "that's just crazy Jodi" as a good answer!

Why it doesn't make sense:
1. Use of flash
2. He's looking right in the camera at the end
3. He's clearly posing in the pics of his back
4. She deleted the pictures (not blackmail)
5. She planned to kill him....in the shower and this was a way to get him in there and not have him be suspicious about why she's in the bathroom with him

Please, someone enlighten me.

She didn't take the pictures without his knowledge. The other makes no sense for the reasons you suggested. I am 150% sure he knew those photos were being taken. :moo:

 

[popsicle]

If she had killed Daryl I might consider this a valid argument (as part of her M.O.)

Also, you ignored the evidence I provided that he knew the pictures were being taken. Thank you for responding, though! I like to hear the different theories people have.

I think if DB had left her like Travis did, then we would be talking about that murder trial and not this one.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

I have to check out of here in less than an hour, and I'm not sure when I'll have time to get back to reading here. (will have my granddaughter till Thursday night) I have a few observations I'd like to add, and I want to know what others are thinking. Juan has asked Jodi the same questions over, and over and over. He won't accept, I guess, that makes sense, I think, etc. He wants her pinned down, with no way to wiggle out. I think those points are the ones Juan has that will really impeach her. The gas cans are one example, and now we know why. The finger cut was another. Asking her about having a GPS on the rental car is hopefully going to be huge! I'm just hoping that car had an internal GPS, and we get to see exactly where Jodi was on that trip. If she burned her clothes, etc. and they can find that location, at the very least the zipper on her sweat pants would have survived the fire. A big glob of melted plastic from the Walmart gas can would be nice too. I can't shake the feeling that somebody followed Jodi in another car on her trip. MM comes to mind. And why did she have the exact same murder weapons in her new rental car when she was arrested. Two knives and a gun. I've read that two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead. Did she think she needed to kill an accomplice? If not an accomplice to the murder, one that she confided in after the fact. I'm thinking MM could have been her target. It will be interesting to see if there is any more info regarding these weapons. They are her murder weapons of choice!

My thoughts as well. She armed herself again for a reason. Already under suspicion for one murder why reload and cast even more suspicion on yourself ? Suicide, I dont think so ! This part of the case still baffles me. Someone was next, someone who knew too much or knew exactly what happened.

 

[Maryann123]

Really intriguing post. There is plenty of evidence to convict Arias of first-degree murder. I don't want to get my hopes up too high for more bombshells but I'd love it if even just one more piece of evidence is introduced in court. I just love seeing Mr Martinez hammering down on Arias' lies. :great:

Either Jodi had a GPS (borrowed or on her cell phone) or there was one in the rental car. (maybe the internal kind) Just the way Juan asked that question, made me sit up and take notice. He wasn't drilling her like he has in other instances. Makes me wonder if he didn't really want her to think too much about that question. I think it will be addressed again. Same with the knives and the gun. Why buy one if you are just going to use it on a camping trip. Her grandpa had plenty, and he would probably have loaned her one, or she could have taken it without permission and he wouldn't have missed if for a short time. I don't think the knives have been mentioned. It's just creepy, she has another rental car and carries these weapons. Somebody was going to die if she hadn't been arrested.

 

[AngelWings444]

Is it too late for the prosecution to request a medical exam and xray on JA's hand?

Surely they will not find a broken finger, but a scar and a sliced tendon.
She keeps telling that Travis broke her left finger, and she cut her right fingers from broken glass. If there is medical poof of a scar on her left hand, and damaged tendon, what is she going to do, change her story again to "oh yes, it was my left hand I cut the finger at work."

BBM: What if she broke it as a child or broke it a few years ago? I wouldn't want her to have an x-ray and have it show a previous break. It would be a nightmare to the case. JA showed Detective Flores her left finger and said it had been cut during the Ninja attack. I'm sure if it had actually been broken at some point, Nurmi would have submitted into evidence, but I don't trust them.

 

[minazoe]

i just want to say that not every teenager that stole five bucks off the dresser occiasionally, or borrowed stuff without asking , is a sociopath, even if they didn't feel super horrible about it...isn't some of that just being bad??? petty theft and stuff like that...I always thought some teens and young adults go thru their troubled phases...

 

[G&AMom]

My thoughts as well. She armed herself again for a reason. Already under suspicion for one murder why reload and cast even more suspicion on yourself ? Suicide, I dont think so ! This part of the case still baffles me. Someone was next, someone who knew too much or knew exactly what happened.

Maybe she thought she needed it in case the cops closed in while she was fleeing to Mexico or something. Agree that suicide was never her intention at all.