Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

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We know crab was served, and we know Priscilla saved a plate of crab for JB, but we don't know that JonBenét ate anything, @ the Whites' house.


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Again, semantics. No we don't even know that crab was served at the Whites. We know PW made a plate of leftover crab legs for JB, as that is what she had served on Christmas Eve, and she knew JB loved it. What she actually served all the guests is a little less clear. But unless Patsy was the worst mother on the planet (maybe she is?), JB certainly would have had something to eat at that party. whether it was crab or not doesn't really matter because whatever she ate was digested. If you are going to be of the opinion that the pineapple in her stomach was eaten prior to going to the Whites, you have to accept the fact that JB would not have eaten anything else on Christmas day besides Patsy's pancake breakfast. Like so much else in this case, you have to use common sense. Sure it is possible that the child ate the pineapple prior to going to the Whites, but what is the likelihood that she would have eaten nothing more, on Christmas day no less!

TT: Okay. So give me kind of a step by step, get to the Whites 5:30, 6:00, 6:30 whatever, what time did you have dinner that night? What did you do before dinner after dinner?
PR: Well, we had um, I think we had cocktails, kind of, she had some cracked crab left over from their Christmas even dinner and we sampled some of that and I remember she kind of, for some reason, made a little plate for JonBenet or I remember her making a special plate for JonBenet for some reason so she would have some crab. . .
TT: Okay.
PR: . . .cause my kids like seafood and uh, we nibble on that and I uh, we had dinner and I can’t remember what we had.
TT: Okay. Was it like a buffet, sit down, what kind of dinner was it?
PR: I just, I just, I don’t know. I can’t remember.
TT: Okay. Was it a formal plates around the table type. . .
PR: Well, we had, she usually puts up several tables in her living room. She had several tables in her living room, in her dining room. Just were, thee were a lot of us there and uh, we sat at the table, you know, she had a place for everybody.
TT: Okay.
PR: And uh, she had little gifts for the kids. They had these little paper jewelry things that JonBenet and Daphne got and um. Fleet and John were down on the floor helping them make those.

Terrible interrogation as it sounds like the let Patsy talk about whatever she wanted to, and let he be as vague as she wanted and change topic when she pleased. When asked if it was a sit down dinner, she doesn't remember. Then in the next breath she says there is a big table with a place for everybody, including the kids. So from this we can say that:

- crab was served as an appetizer with cocktails
- a plate of crab was saved for JB
- They all sat down together at a dinner table

Patsy the successfully changes topic, but it is only logical to assume that PW served dinner. It is also logical to assume that JB ate something as she was seated for dinner and any parents would have ensured that she at least ate something. If there had been any indication that JB didn't feel well enough to eat (as is sometimes the case with young kids), why didn't Patsy mention it?

ETA, this was Patsy's last meal with her daughter, and only 4 months later she doesn't remember it????
 
Again, semantics. No we don't even know that crab was served at the Whites. We know PW made a plate of leftover crab legs for JB, as that is what she had served on Christmas Eve, and she knew JB loved it. What she actually served all the guests is a little less clear. But unless Patsy was the worst mother on the planet (maybe she is?), JB certainly would have had something to eat at that party. whether it was crab or not doesn't really matter because whatever she ate was digested. If you are going to be of the opinion that the pineapple in her stomach was eaten prior to going to the Whites, you have to accept the fact that JB would not have eaten anything else on Christmas day besides Patsy's pancake breakfast. Like so much else in this case, you have to us a e common sense. Sure it is possible that the child ate the pineapple prior to going to the Whites, but what is the likelihood that she would have eaten nothing more, on Christmas day no less!
Any mother that participates in the assault and murder of their own child would be a candidate for the title 'World's Worst Mother'. Casting such judgement on a parent because they failed to ensure their healthy child ate a conventional dinner on an otherwise non-routine, celebratory day such as Christmas is absurd.

Terrible interrogation as it sounds like the let Patsy talk about whatever she wanted to, and let he be as vague as she wanted and change topic when she pleased. When asked if it was a sit down dinner, she doesn't remember. Then in the next breath she says there is a big table with a place for everybody, including the kids. So from this we can say that:

- crab was served as an appetizer with cocktails
- a plate of crab was saved for JB
- They all sat down together at a dinner table

Patsy the successfully changes topic, but it is only logical to assume that PW served dinner. It is also logical to assume that JB ate something as she was seated for dinner and any parents would have ensured that she at least ate something. If there had been any indication that JB didn't feel well enough to eat (as is sometimes the case with young kids), why didn't Patsy mention it?
Priscilla had tableS set up, including at least one area reserved for children. JonBenét was probably seated for some time during dinner, and she may have eaten, but neither are established facts.

It is possible JonBenet ate a large breakfast/brunch, a late lunch and a few chunks of pineapple just before leaving for the Whites' home, so she wasn't too hungry. Perhaps the excitement of Christmas, playing with friends, and another round of gifts to be opened (on the eve of a trip to Charlevoix), overwhelmed the child to the extent that she just wasn't interested in the food offered at the dinner party. Maybe a combination of both possibilities occurred.

ETA, this was Patsy's last meal with her daughter, and only 4 months later she doesn't remember it????
Given the circumstances, you find this odd???
 
Thoughts on what might be depicted in the circled portion of the crime scene photo below?...

image.jpg

:thinking:
 
I`ve tried to enlarge photo, but when photo was enlarged image lost it`s sharpness . No idea, what do you see on the pillow. What is it ?
Not sure, but I see what appears to be satin trim on a white blanket. Similar to this:

71eSlfBKOUL._SY355_.jpg


JMO.


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Santa letter in the JB bedroom waisetbasket. Torn. It was not addressed to the family, it was addressed "friend", avoided JB`s difficult name spelling, as was in ransom, it wished her Merry Christmas and it said "I love you all". Letter was computer generated.
Several days later little girl was found dead, it was Christmas.

In the interviews parents had been asked about mysterious letter. Detailed info in Mama2 post # 1674.
John was shown photos of parts of letter. He asked twice-- Somebody loves you all ? He was unpleasantly surprised by the wordings.
Like anybody normal adult should.
Detectives never point it to Santa Bill. They asked Ramsey`s-- WHO COULD wright this?
Parents had no answer.
JB adored and worshiped Santa Bill. But the letter was torn, in the waist basket.
Everybody in family knew Santa Bill gave JB postcard. Would he dare to put "I love you all" in his post card"?
The letter, computer printed, sounds to me personally not like postcard.
The author had never been found, to my knowledge.
JB secretly from parents expected Santa visit. Was she told to keep it secret? Who was author of this far from innocent greeting?
 
Santa letter in the JB bedroom waisetbasket. Torn. It was not addressed to the family, it was addressed "friend", avoided JB`s difficult name spelling, as was in ransom, it wished her Merry Christmas and it said "I love you all". Letter was computer generated.
Several days later little girl was found dead, it was Christmas.

In the interviews parents had been asked about mysterious letter. Detailed info in Mama2 post # 1674.
John was shown photos of parts of letter. He asked twice-- Somebody loves you all ? He was unpleasantly surprised by the wordings.
Like anybody normal adult should.
Detectives never point it to Santa Bill. They asked Ramsey`s-- WHO COULD wright this?
Parents had no answer.
JB adored and worshiped Santa Bill. But the letter was torn, in the waist basket.
Everybody in family knew Santa Bill gave JB postcard. Would he dare to put "I love you all" in his post card"?
The letter, computer printed, sounds to me personally not like postcard.
The author had never been found, to my knowledge.
JB secretly from parents expected Santa visit. Was she told to keep it secret? Who was author of this far from innocent greeting?
Tovarisch - you say Santa Bill gave JonBenet a postcard. I'm not sure about that, I am not aware that Santa Bill gave her any postcard. All I have gleaned from my reading is that there was a torn up Christmas greetings letter in JonBenet's trash bin which gave no indication as to who the letter was to or from, also that there was a secret Santa visit that JonBenet told Megan Kostanick was going to take place after Christmas.


As far as I can tell it was Tom Trujillo who started the "Santa letter" thing when he questioned Patsy in April 1997:

TT: "JonBenet got a letter from the secret Santa. Do you know who the secret Santa was?"

PR: "Ah, secret Santa."
TT: "Where did she get the letter?"

PR: "I'm not sure that she got the letter..."

TT: Any secret Santa that she talked about or anything like that?"

PR: "No."

Personally I think Trujillo was confused - as far as I can see he seemed to be mixing up two separate issues - the torn up Christmas letter and the secret Santa visit.
 
The Ramsey's didn't have a clue about the letter. But the Ramsey's didn't have a clue about the Santa Bear either. You cannot believe those people as they purposely were trying to create the illusion of an intruder by playing dumb about items that they knew about. The bear, the flashlight, the pineapple bowl, all items that belonged to them that they tried to pass off on an intruder.
 
Santa letter in the JB bedroom waisetbasket. Torn. It was not addressed to the family, it was addressed "friend", avoided JB`s difficult name spelling, as was in ransom, it wished her Merry Christmas and it said "I love you all". Letter was computer generated.
Several days later little girl was found dead, it was Christmas.

In the interviews parents had been asked about mysterious letter. Detailed info in Mama2 post # 1674.
John was shown photos of parts of letter. He asked twice-- Somebody loves you all ? He was unpleasantly surprised by the wordings.
Like anybody normal adult should.
Detectives never point it to Santa Bill. They asked Ramsey`s-- WHO COULD wright this?
Parents had no answer.
JB adored and worshiped Santa Bill. But the letter was torn, in the waist basket.
Everybody in family knew Santa Bill gave JB postcard. Would he dare to put "I love you all" in his post card"?
The letter, computer printed, sounds to me personally not like postcard.
The author had never been found, to my knowledge.
JB secretly from parents expected Santa visit. Was she told to keep it secret? Who was author of this far from innocent greeting?

Do you have the full content of that letter? If it wasn't signed, how do you know it was a Santa letter?

And "love you all" is a very common expression. My mother, who is English, uses that expression all the time.


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It looks like it's the white underside of the comforter to me.
The bedspread has a white underside, and it is probably just that. I see what appears to be satin trim, and I associated that with a blanket, separate from the bedspread. My eyes could certainly be deceiving me. Thanks.


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The Ramsey's didn't have a clue about the letter. But the Ramsey's didn't have a clue about the Santa Bear either. You cannot believe those people as they purposely were trying to create the illusion of an intruder by playing dumb about items that they knew about. The bear, the flashlight, the pineapple bowl, all items that belonged to them that they tried to pass off on an intruder.

The flashlight-- even if they put a gun to my head-- still I would not recognize a FL in my household with 100% certainty.

The bowl- I would recognize MY bowl, as I have personally just 4 round bowls. If it was left by somebody during the numerous parties, I might not recognize it.

The bear-- some sources fed us with the idea it had been shabby, button missing, clipped with the earring some sources assured it was brand new December award. I prefer not to talk about the bear, until further info.

The Santa letter---- stands out of this row, it`s was brought from OUTSIDE the family shortly before the murder by an unknown male (Santa), personally to JB, to her bedroom. Unknown by who when and how to these days. Computer printed.
 
First time posting at Websleuths. :)

Baseball Bat
-The extra baseball bat found at the Ramsey house.
-The metal on metal scraping sound heard by people next door

Could scraping/dragging/striking a metal bat on cement produce a metal on metal scraping sound? (I think more of a grinding sound if dragged) Could this have been done to entice a potential dog on the property? To see if the family owned a guard dog?

Also... could the intruder have thrown the bat deliberatly onto their property so as to have an alibi if the intruder was found on the property (but not in the house). I know Trespassing is illegal. Though I also know that possession makes up a significant part of law too. The intruder wouldn't have been arrested if found on property if he was going after a possession of his... is this right? Doesn't it negates criminal intent or something like that? I was skeptical when I heard that but figured I'd post it here... maybe someone could confirm or deny or lead me to a link?
 
I had no desire to think about controversial Santa Bear. Curiosity took over me, I went to the web to read about him. Surprise! He had life of his own, he disappeared from the crime seen, from the sealed house, under the noses of detectives. He disappeared into the thin air, wearing gypsy ring and touch DNA`s allover him. Police have been looking for him for years, for no success.

IS IT TRUE ? Should I laugh or cry? Hello! From the crime scene? Anybody, please......
 
The Santa letter---- stands out of this row, it`s was brought from OUTSIDE the family shortly before the murder by an unknown male (Santa), personally to JB, to her bedroom. Unknown by who when and how to these days. Computer printed.

You should stop spreading untrue rumors. The letter was discussed in Patsy's second police interview. Although she won't positively identify it without seeing the actual copy, she does suggest that this is one of her Christmas poems that she messed up and discarded.




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I had no desire to think about controversial Santa Bear. Curiosity took over me, I went to the web to read about him. Surprise! He had life of his own, he disappeared from the crime seen, from the sealed house, under the noses of detectives. He disappeared into the thin air, wearing gypsy ring and touch DNA`s allover him. Police have been looking for him for years, for no success.

IS IT TRUE ? Should I laugh or cry? Hello! From the crime scene? Anybody, please......

For someone that claimed they were only going to acknowledge documented evidence and testimony only a few days ago, you certainly have no problems using Internet rumors when it suits your purpose. That bear was photographed on JBs bed (not sure if it was taken in to evidence or not). I recall that it was the Ramsey's that started the rumor about it, saying they had never seen it and that it shouldn't have been there. I seem to recall Patsy's sister on Larry King going on about it, expanding the lie, saying a note was found in its pocket or something. It didn't take long for the organizers of one of the pageants JB had recently participated in, to come forward and say that those bears were given to all the contestants.

So instead of saying "where did it come from?", you should be asking why did everyone in that family pretend they'd never seen it?


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I'm bringing this over from the RDI thread as I think it was posted there by mistake. Even if it wasn't, it relates to what's being posted here. Thanks Cranberry!:

Today, 01:18 AM #1018 Cranberry Cranberry is offline
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Re Santa letter found in JB's wastebasket

For the record here is where Patsy all but admits she wrote and threw away the letter (from the Christmas poems she wrote for the 12/23 kids party). In this 6/98 interview she is vague and non-committal, a smart move, leaving the door open for a mystery IMO.

TOM HANEY: Here we go, this is 292.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, see, that's not the
11 same.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, it's not?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Unh-unh (no).
14 TRIP DeMUTH: The photo of the --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Facing the -- the preprinted
16 stationery is not the same.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0559
1 (NOTE: THE FOLLOWING PORTION OF THE TRANSCRIPT
2 HAD NO VIDEO, ONLY AUDIO.)
3 TRIP DeMUTH: How about marking
4 this.
5 VOICE: Yes, does it look like it's
6 that portion of it, though?
7 VOICE: With the pen over
8 (INAUDIBLE).
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Kind of looks like
10 the writing goes through this little design.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Which is a horn and
13 --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: -- some --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, could be, but
17 this type would be a lot bigger. I mean, see
18 that --
19 TRIP DeMUTH: That takes up most of
20 the gap between here and there.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. I did it with
22 special (INAUDIBLE) during the holidays at
23 Christmas and might (INAUDIBLE).
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: I don't know.
0560
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Hum? I can't -- I
2 can't tell.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks to me
5 like a lot bigger than that. I mean if you had
6 the real thing, I could tell for sure.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: I don't think we
8 collected that.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I know, yeah.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: So looking at that
11 though, it doesn't ring any bells, you don't --
12 the poems you wrote -- I mean you have referred
13 this now that's in this photograph, you read the
14 portion that you can see.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: That doesn't jog your
17 memory as being part of the poem that you wrote?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it could be.
19 I mean, I don't know. I just can't see it well
20 enough.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Right, okay.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: You know there is a C
23 at the end there you can see, Merry Christmas.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: And also looks like
0561
1 it signed off there at the bottom.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: "Love you all".
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Love you all, Merry
4 Christmas.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe that's the
6 end.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you do that at
8 the end of your poems, those Christmas poems?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). Was
10 the whole thing in that note, you know that
11 (INAUDIBLE) in the center there?
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Was --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Was there more pages
14 than what was sort of just the picture, because
15 usually there was something about everybody's
16 party because I knew who was going to be there
17 so --
18 TRIP DeMUTH: We will look for that
19 stuff. What we wanted to do is just explore
20 your memory by showing you --
21 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
22 PATSY RAMSEY: It could be, but it
23 doesn't look proportionate, but if it is, maybe
24 it just a, you know, one that goofed and I threw
25 it away or something.
0562
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
2 TOM HANEY: Well, we have finished
3 the photos.
 
I had no desire to think about controversial Santa Bear. Curiosity took over me, I went to the web to read about him. Surprise! He had life of his own, he disappeared from the crime seen, from the sealed house, under the noses of detectives. He disappeared into the thin air, wearing gypsy ring and touch DNA`s allover him. Police have been looking for him for years, for no success.

IS IT TRUE ? Should I laugh or cry? Hello! From the crime scene? Anybody, please......

ACandyRose is a valuable research tool for this case. Simply Google "ACandyRose Santa Bear"

Snipped by me:

41. 2000-03-18: DOI Page 273: In Photos, Patsy said she saw a red-and-white stuffed bear on twin bed.
42. 2000-03-18: DOI Page 273: Patsy: "I said I didn't remember seeing that bear before"
43. 2000-03-18: DOI Page 273: Patsy: "My comments started a nationwide search for the bear."
44. 2000-05-09: About.com online Internet chat with Steve Thomas w/questions re: teddy bear saga
45. 2000-08-29 John and Patsy Ramsey Interview with Boulder Police/Prosecutors in Atlanta, Georgia
46. 2000-08-29: Prosecution team stated they received the bear from either Mr. Morgan/Mr. Haddon

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-santa-bear-mystery.htm

The only person I'm aware of that raided the crime scene was Pam Paugh. Of course, it could have just been missed the first time around and then packed away after the house was released. Either way, it appears it was in the Ramsey's possession the entire time.
 
The flashlight-- even if they put a gun to my head-- still I would not recognize a FL in my household with 100% certainty.

Wrong. They not only recognized the flashlight, JR confirmed they had an identical flashlight. His argument was that this one in the photos was "dirty" and his was clean so it couldn't be his. Nevermind that it had fingerprint dust on it, making it appear dirty.

ANOTHER thing the police just let slide right on by, with no comment as to WHY an item in a crime scene might "appear" dirty.
 
Kkazoo87,

concerning Santa Bear:
thank you A LOT for the referenses on Santa Bear, I `ve read the whole saga that lasted for 2 years, and I`ve been relieved in the end when the stuffed animal `d been found in Ramsey`s possession, boxed. It`s a big relieve to know that he is now in the Colorado PD `s hands. When thinking why this happened and why time and money was thrown away in the search for the toy, who was one day sitting on the bed, another day missing, nobody should blame distraught aunt Pam for not remembering clearly what she removed and what not. That was not her diligence. She had been attendant at every second of each step by the police officer, and it were them who should keep eye and RECORDS on what have been removed, especially and at least from the victim`s bedroom. I surprised it was not in their standard operating procedure, recording every item. This way such expensive hunt for teddy would not take place, and we would know about 12 size panties original location on 26-th. And probably much more.

concerning Santa Letter:

thank you for additional interview provided. Unfortunately I see not at all what you convinced in. It` s not the same letter they are talking!
Santa letter in the waist basket was COMPUTER PRINTED.
The poem that det. Trip Demuth discussing with Patsy and confusing her as hard as he could, was pen written with art design insertions and what else, hard to follow. But in line 7 through 10 you can find they were discussing pen over and writing goes through...

The same det. Demuth in the different interview with Patsy directly asked her who she thought could right secret Santa Letter to JB.
L. Smit asked JR about also Santa Letter, printed on the computer, not poems with the design.

Santa letter had been computer printed and Patsy`s poems written with pen and design, it`s to different things. There is common feature between two- "I love you all" wordings, and it bothered detectives big deal, the wordings. They tried to find parallel in Patsy poems. And yes, parallel is interesting. Questions come to the mind. But it`s two different notes.

Ramsey`s had a home office computer, immediately sealed and taken right away.
Don`t you think the printed Santa letter could have been sourced to the home computer easily? Prints color density, paper ? If it was the case, we would not see all those interview going on concerning the Santa Letter.

Thank you for your help. Bear is a huge relieve.
 
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