Is Patsy Ramsey losing her battle with ovarian cancer

[Jayelles]

Thanks for the info on the baseball bat BC. In fairness to Yonder Forum, there has been so little activity on the ramsey case for some time now that they are bound to fall behind on case details as the evolve OTOH, the RST are just as guilty as spinning pro-Ramsey as the media were guilty of spinning anti-Ramsey in the early days. One of these days, a journalist will run an accurate and fair acount of the case and it will be a story which neither incriminates nor exonerates the Ramseys. There is insufficient evidence to charge them, but they can't be cleared either.

 

[Voice of Reason]

I doubt JonBenet woke up prior to the perpetrator removing her from her bed, let alone sat at the breakfast room table and snacked on pineapple.

I'm very interested as to what evidence you base your doubts on. It is an absolute fact that pineapple was in JBR's stomach at her death, and that, scientifically, is very telling.

JonBenet was a heavy sleeper--as proved by her bedwetting. After such an exciting, event-filled day, she would have slept deeper than normal. Had anyone, even someone she knew, attempted to waken her, she would have kicked up a fuss.

Bedwetting does not prove that one is a heavy sleeper. I'm not sure what "evidence" you used to get this speculation from. Furthermore, you contradict yourself by saying she was a heavy sleeper, then saying she would have slept EVEN DEEPER than usual because of xmas day, but then you use this as "evidence" to suggest how easily she would have awakened?

The remnants of drink of snacks on the breakfast room table were likely leftover from the afternoon when the children's friends came to visit. Rates of digestion vary widely. There has been much pineapple discussion over the years, and many believe JonBenet ate the fruit a short time before her death. In this I disagree having had too many vomiting experiences with my own children and knowing when they actually ate the food they vomited.

First of all, if that was the case, the chance of Patsy or John having a better response than "I don't know" as to how the pineapple and tea made it on to the table would increase. Secondly, if she ate the pineapple in the afternoon, and then had crab, how is it that no crab was in her stomach, but partially digested pineapple was. I understand that you've performed scientific experiments on your children's vomit, but the people who have assessed the pineapple in JBR's body are professionals and they do this for a living. Science is much stronger "evidence" in this case.

 

[BlueCrab]

Secondly, if she ate the pineapple in the afternoon, and then had crab, how is it that no crab was in her stomach, but partially digested pineapple was.

Voice of Reason,

Actually, just to keep the record straight, the pineapple was in the beginning part of JonBenet's small intestine. There was no food in the stomach. But you still made your point. The pineapple was the last thing that JonBenet ate, and she ate it about one hour before she died.

The Ramsey Spin Team cannot accept the pineapple evidence because it clearly shows there was no intruder. JonBenet would not have sat down at the breakfast room table and snacked on pineapple as the intruder sipped on tea, especially after being stungunned by the intruder and carried downstairs. Common sense tells us there was no intruder. It was Burke's fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple, not an intruder's fingerprints. But if the RST accepts this evidence, no matter how obvious it is, then the intruder theory is dead; so they'll NEVER accept it.

The guilty Ramsey comes first -- not justice for innocent JonBenet.

BlueCrab

 

[narlacat]

"JonBenet was a heavy sleeper--as proved by her bedwetting".

Ive never read anywhere that Jonbenet was a heavy sleeper. She had trouble getting to sleep according to John.
I disagree that bedwetting proved she was a heavy sleeper. If my 6 yr old wets the bed, he wakes and comes and tells me.

 

[Rainsong]

Rainsong,

There was no baseball bat "left behind". Both baseball bats were proven to belong to Burke Ramsey.

From the 2000 Atlanta interviews with John Ramsey:

Attorney Levin: "If I can change gears here for just a second, one of the things you found significant, and, obviously since you found it significant, it was of great interest to us, was the baseball bat, the second baseball bat, aluminum bat. And we have, through confidential grand jury investigations, found that that bat, that second bat was Burke's."

Busted again! John tried to make the second baseball bat sound mysterious and not belonging at the house, and therefore perhaps the murder weapon carried by an intruder. But it turned out to be Burke's bat -- and the Ramseys likely knew that. All they had to do if they weren't sure, was to ask Burke. Kids know how many baseball bats they own.

Incidentally, the Swamp (where "only the truth is told") still falsely uses the second baseball bat as evidence of an intruder.

BlueCrab

Finish the quote:
"7 And we have, through confidential

8 grand jury investigations, found that that

9 bat, that second bat was Burke's. Was there

10 anything else that you thought about,

11 assuming that is true?

12 A. Well, I never have seen the bat,

13 so -- and I think the best person to say

14 whether it was Burke's or not is to ask

15 Burke.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. That's it from your

19 perspective --

20 A. No, there was nothing else I know

21 about the bat.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you."

Now, ALL testimony in the Grand Jury hearings was supposed to be kept under wraps. Would you have us believe Attorney Levin actually spilled the beans--or was he lying? Or possibly mistaken?

You see, Blue Crab, I don't take everything spoken by the opposing side as truth. When I see such blatant disregard for the law, I tend to be suspicious.

Actually, to keep the record straight, very few pathologists who would testifiy on the how fast any particular food would pass through any specific person's digestive tract. Digestion is not an exact science since various factors influence the rate including age of the person, health of said person, ambient temperature, activity of said person, etc. And it is for THIS reason that I do not accept the 'pineapple' evidence and no other.

And yes, my comparison of my child's vomiting does relate to digestive rates since not all vomiting is caused by illness. Sometimes children overeat. Sometimes they are too active directly after eating and other times they are simply excited. The correlation is valid, Blue Crab.

BTW, as so many like to point out soooo frequently, fingerprints cannot be dated. Burke's fingerprints may have been on the bowl from snacking on pineapple prior to going to the Whites' for dinner.

Ever wonder why JonBenet didn't eat much at the White's? Maybe because she snacked while still at home.

Rainsong

 

[Rainsong]

"JonBenet was a heavy sleeper--as proved by her bedwetting".

Ive never read anywhere that Jonbenet was a heavy sleeper. She had trouble getting to sleep according to John.
I disagree that bedwetting proved she was a heavy sleeper. If my 6 yr old wets the bed, he wakes and comes and tells me.

Disagree if you like, but if she wasn't a heavy sleeper, she would have awakened when the urge to urinate first arose, not after she wet the bed.

Rainsong

 

[narlacat]

What did I just say Rainsong. I said when my 6 yr old wets the bed he wakes and comes and tells me. He wakes up after the fact probably because the bed is wet and that is what wakes him up. The urge to urinate is not strong enough to wake him up.

We do not know if Jonbenet was a heavy sleeper or not, that is my point.

 

[dingo]

Having wet the bed a few times myself as a child, i remember waking up to a wet bed and not the urge to get up and go to the toilet

 

[Rainsong]

Voice of Reason, I base my doubts on a lot of things, including experience as a parent.

Certainly bedwetting can be a result of being a heavy sleeper. The urge to urinate is what wakes people up who do not bedwet. Those who sleep deeply do not 'get the message' as easily as those who sleep lighter. Again, my experience as a parent provides a firm basis on which to base my "speculation."

No, I did not contradict myself. As I recall, Nedra stated JonBenet did not like being wakened. Had someone, even someone she knew awakened her, she would have 'raised hell' (paraphrasing Nedra). At no time did I say waking her would have been easy--that would have been a contradiction.

Really? If you are a parent, do you know every bite of food that passes your child's lips during any given day? John Ramsey left the home for a few hours on Christmas day to tend to the airplane. Patsy was wrapping gifts, coloring her hair and preparing for the trip the next day. Burke and JonBenet could have raided the entire refrigerator and the pantry without their parents' knowledge.

How do kids manage to eat a full dinner and still only manage to vomit what they had for lunch? I have not done experiments on my children's vomit, but i I do know this has happened several times.

Professionals may very well have inspected "the yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple," but we only have Steve Thomas' word for that fact. Regardless of what the remnants actually were, digestive rates vary widely in individuals and no one can say 'fer sure' how long it took JonBenet to digest whatever it was she ate.

Rainsong

 

[Rainsong]

Thanks for the info on the baseball bat BC. In fairness to Yonder Forum, there has been so little activity on the ramsey case for some time now that they are bound to fall behind on case details as the evolve OTOH, the RST are just as guilty as spinning pro-Ramsey as the media were guilty of spinning anti-Ramsey in the early days. One of these days, a journalist will run an accurate and fair acount of the case and it will be a story which neither incriminates nor exonerates the Ramseys. There is insufficient evidence to charge them, but they can't be cleared either.

RE: The Ramsey lawsuit against FOX lists evidence of an intruder, including--
"an unsourced baseball bat that had fibers on it consistent with those found in the basement where JonBenét's body was found"

Attorney Levin states the information that the bat belonged to Burke came out during the Grand Jury proceedings--but any testimony in the GJ hearings is sealed so we cannot verify his statement. The FOX suit was filed in 2003, well after the GJ proceedings.

Rainsong

 

[Jayelles]

RE: The Ramsey lawsuit against FOX lists evidence of an intruder, including--
"an unsourced baseball bat that had fibers on it consistent with those found in the basement where JonBenét's body was found"

Attorney Levin states the information that the bat belonged to Burke came out during the Grand Jury proceedings--but any testimony in the GJ hearings is sealed so we cannot verify his statement. The FOX suit was filed in 2003, well after the GJ proceedings.

Rainsong

As we all know, the Ramsey lawsuit against FOX was dismissed. However, the Ramseys have consistently used as their main source of case information, Lou SMit's PowerPoint presentation. It was only up-to-date as of 1998 when Smit resigned. The investigation has been ongoing since then with a lot more testing and evidence gathered as a result. Smit may be back working on the investigation, but a condition of him doing so was that there would be no leaks. I have no reason to suppose that he has done so and therefore, TeamRamsey is probably still working with old and outdated case information.

 

[Jayelles]

Is it just me or do others sense a kind of blind grasping for conditions to support a view?... A dedicated "faith" that no matter what issue science and circumstances combine to produce challenging their blindly held belief, it has to be wrong and it's OK to create contradictory explanations by just grasping or making up something...A "reality" whose essence, compared to actuality, is more like confabulation compared to memory.

It's quite fascinating to observe how some people arrive at their conclusions and as such, the many different ways that one piece of evidence can be interpreted.

In the case of some posters, I like it to having a jigsaw of a forest. Each jigsaw piece has a tree on it. All that some people will see is a collection of unconnected trees - none of which makes a forest.

I observed it first in the vanDam case and since doing so, I see it in the Ramsey case too.

 

[Rainsong]

As we all know, the Ramsey lawsuit against FOX was dismissed. However, the Ramseys have consistently used as their main source of case information, Lou SMit's PowerPoint presentation. It was only up-to-date as of 1998 when Smit resigned. The investigation has been ongoing since then with a lot more testing and evidence gathered as a result. Smit may be back working on the investigation, but a condition of him doing so was that there would be no leaks. I have no reason to suppose that he has done so and therefore, TeamRamsey is probably still working with old and outdated case information.

The disposition of the FOX suit has no bearing on whether or not the baseball bat belonged to Burke. What does matter is Attorney Levin's statement purportedly revealing Grand Jury testimony. Since we have no confirmation from either John or Patsy Ramsey or from Burke on ownership of said baseball bat, no definitive conclusion can be reached.

Rainsong

 

[Rainsong]

What did I just say Rainsong. I said when my 6 yr old wets the bed he wakes and comes and tells me. He wakes up after the fact probably because the bed is wet and that is what wakes him up. The urge to urinate is not strong enough to wake him up.

We do not know if Jonbenet was a heavy sleeper or not, that is my point.

Perhaps I misunderstood your original post. To me it read as if you were saying the opposite.

Rainsong

 

[BlueCrab]

Since we have no confirmation from either John or Patsy Ramsey or from Burke on ownership of said baseball bat, no definitive conclusion can be reached.

Rainsong,

What an incredible statement that is! Why would anyone expect confirmation from a Ramsey that the baseball bat belonged to a Ramsey, thus confirming they lied? It was the Ramseys who tried to make the second baseball bat sound mysterious and suspicious looking, all in an effort to suggest it belonged to an intruder. The Ramseys knew all along that both baseball bats belonged to Burke. So they are not about to confirm they lied.

The GJ investigators uncovered the fact that both baseball bats belonged to Burke. They don't need any further confirmation. The Ramseys lied.

BlueCrab

 

[Rainsong]

Rainsong,

What an incredible statement that is! Why would anyone expect confirmation from a Ramsey that the baseball bat belonged to a Ramsey, thus confirming they lied? It was the Ramseys who tried to make the second baseball bat sound mysterious and suspicious looking, all in an effort to suggest it belonged to an intruder. The Ramseys knew all along that both baseball bats belonged to Burke. So they are not about to confirm they lied.

The GJ investigators uncovered the fact that both baseball bats belonged to Burke. They don't need any further confirmation. The Ramseys lied.

BlueCrab

Blue Crab, I question Attorney Levin's comments. Purportedly the ownership of the baseball bat came out in the Grand Jury testimony. Now, given that this interview (quoted by both of us) occurred after such testimony, and that the question was directed to John Ramsey, don't you think if John Ramsey had any question about said ownership of the bat, he would have questioned his own son and that tidbit of information would never have made its way into the FOX suit?

Again, I question Levin's veracity since he would have been in breach of the Colorado law regarding this Grand Jury proceedings IF what he states is true.

Rainsong

 

[Jayelles]

The Ramseys said that they don't discuss the case with Burke.

 

[BlueCrab]

Blue Crab, I question Attorney Levin's comments. Purportedly the ownership of the baseball bat came out in the Grand Jury testimony. Now, given that this interview (quoted by both of us) occurred after such testimony, and that the question was directed to John Ramsey, don't you think if John Ramsey had any question about said ownership of the bat, he would have questioned his own son and that tidbit of information would never have made its way into the FOX suit?

Again, I question Levin's veracity since he would have been in breach of the Colorado law regarding this Grand Jury proceedings IF what he states is true.

Rainsong,

You are attacking the messenger. Why aren't you attacking John, the person who KNEW it was Burke's baseball bat (because if he wasn't sure, all he had to do was ask Burke) but opted instead to stay quiet and send the cops off on another long and expensive wild goose chase.

John Ramsey lied about the baseball bat in his and Patsy's never-ending effort to muddle and confuse the evidence, just as they did with the Santa Bear when they shamelessly lied and sent the whole nation on a wild goose chase looking for the bear. Come to find out they had the bear at home after Pam Paugh had swiped it from the crime scene.

Rainsong, in regard to attorney Levin's methods employed to prove John Ramsey a liar, if some day you're mugged be sure to file criminal charges against the cop who saved your life and arrested the mugger. The cop may have broken the speed limit getting to the scene so fast to save you.

BlueCrab

 

[Rainsong]

Rainsong,

You are attacking the messenger. Why aren't you attacking John, the person who KNEW it was Burke's baseball bat (because if he wasn't sure, all he had to do was ask Burke) but opted instead to stay quiet and send the cops off on another long and expensive wild goose chase.

John Ramsey lied about the baseball bat in his and Patsy's never-ending effort to muddle and confuse the evidence, just as they did with the Santa Bear when they shamelessly lied and sent the whole nation on a wild goose chase looking for the bear. Come to find out they had the bear at home after Pam Paugh had swiped it from the crime scene.

Rainsong, in regard to attorney Levin's methods employed to prove John Ramsey a liar, if some day you're mugged be sure to file criminal charges against the cop who saved your life and arrested the mugger. The cop may have broken the speed limit getting to the scene so fast to save you.

BlueCrab

I'm attacking nothing but the statement made by Levin. All GJ testimony is supposedly sealed and since that testimony is sealed, there is no way to confirm Levn's statements. Keep in mind, Levin was appointed by Alex Hunter and was a prosecutor prior to joining Hunter's GJ team. As such, his questions posed to John Ramsey may not be truthful, as shown by previous interviews of the Ramseys have also included erroneous "facts."

Rainsong

 

[Toltec]

JonBenet was not a heavy sleeper as proved by Patsy's statements that JonBenet would wake after wetting her bed to find her on the other bed in her bedroom or in Burke's second bed.

She did not like anyone waking her up and getting her out of bed...she screamed bloody murder.

JonBenet had gotten up on her own the night she was murdered....or she did not go to sleep at all.