Is Patsy Ramsey losing her battle with ovarian cancer

[why_nutt]

Blue Crab, I question Attorney Levin's comments. Purportedly the ownership of the baseball bat came out in the Grand Jury testimony. Now, given that this interview (quoted by both of us) occurred after such testimony, and that the question was directed to John Ramsey, don't you think if John Ramsey had any question about said ownership of the bat, he would have questioned his own son and that tidbit of information would never have made its way into the FOX suit?

Again, I question Levin's veracity since he would have been in breach of the Colorado law regarding this Grand Jury proceedings IF what he states is true.

Rainsong

Rainsong, you have to give BlueCrab some ground on this issue. The Ramseys, in their private moments, would never have reason to question Burke about his ownership of the bat, because they would have reason to use it as evidence of an intruder if they wanted to point away from themselves. I mean, really, look at what Patsy said about it in 1998:

TOM HANEY: Do you know how many bats he might have had? Would he have had more than one?

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so. I mean, I think that looks metal. Metal bats are pretty -- I mean, they are not cheap. So I can't imagine -- I don't think he had more than one, if he had one.

IF he had one? Come on, even you have to find that an unbelievable thing for Patsy to say about her Little League son who was photographed owning a not-inexpensive brand-name Louisville Slugger baseball mitt. And to put the intruder icing on the cake, Patsy claims Burke was unlikely to have one because it was metal? Which is not cheap? Patsy spent thousands on JonBenet's pageant clothes and fees. John spent tens of thousands of dollars building a custom boat for himself. Do you really want people to buy into the image of a family which begrudged its oldest son a few more dollars for a metal bat? Because Patsy sure wanted investigators to believe that, as you can see.

 

[Toltec]

Rainsong, you have to give BlueCrab some ground on this issue. The Ramseys, in their private moments, would never have reason to question Burke about his ownership of the bat, because they would have reason to use it as evidence of an intruder if they wanted to point away from themselves. I mean, really, look at what Patsy said about it in 1998:



IF he had one? Come on, even you have to find that an unbelievable thing for Patsy to say about her Little League son who was photographed owning a not-inexpensive brand-name Louisville Slugger baseball mitt. And to put the intruder icing on the cake, Patsy claims Burke was unlikely to have one because it was metal? Which is not cheap? Patsy spent thousands on JonBenet's pageant clothes and fees. John spent tens of thousands of dollars building a custom boat for himself. Do you really want people to buy into the image of a family which begrudged its oldest son a few more dollars for a metal bat? Because Patsy sure wanted investigators to believe that, as you can see.

LITTLE LEAGUE DOES NOT ALLOW USE OF WOODEN BATS!

Burke had to have owned a metal bat because that is the only type he could use to play little league. I bought one for my son and the really good ones are expensive...hundred dollars on up.

Patsy knows about the bats because she is the one who bought them. She was the one responsible for the shopping and therefore knows the price of bats. I boggles the mind that she would complain about the price....but then again, little league does not award tiaras for championships.

**^**

 

[BlueCrab]

Little league aluminum bats go for about $50.

 

[Voice of Reason]

Professionals may very well have inspected "the yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple," but we only have Steve Thomas' word for that fact. Regardless of what the remnants actually were, digestive rates vary widely in individuals and no one can say 'fer sure' how long it took JonBenet to digest whatever it was she ate.

Actually, I think you are quite wrong here. The quote you used is directly from the autopsy report. These are exactly the types of things that are looked for in an autopsy, and the professionals who perform autopsies are hired to inspect these things. You are somehow questioning that they even inspected the pineapple, because you only have Steve Thomas' word for it? I am completely at a loss as to how you are trying to debate these scientific findings. Do you really think, being that they didn't know when she died and this was a MURDER, they would just skip over that as not important?

As for the heavy sleeper/light sleeper, I really don't think bedwetting has anything to do with it. At early ages, all children wet the bed. It has nothing to do with heavy or light sleepers. It has to do with being toilet-trained for starters. If you're a heavy sleeper at age 40, does that mean you still wet the bed? It's human nature, something that comes as you grow up. When you have to go to the bathroom, you wake up. It just comes later for some people.

Also, some people are light sleepers, but that doesn't mean they don't put up a fit if they are awakened. I, for one, am a heavy sleeper, and I don't mind being awakened. There is a difference between sleeping deeply, and enjoying sleep. Because JBR would throw a fit if she was awakened, does not in the least bit suggest whether or not she is a heavy sleeper.

Finally, doesn't the fact that JBR would throw a fit suggest this was done by someone who knows her? If she threw a fit, people would wake up, and nobody did.

As for the GJ, anyone who testified to the grand jury is free to tell what they said, but not what they learned. It is a 1st amendment right. There are ways around the gag order if witnesses wish to speak.

And the bat...let's say for sake of argument that Burke owned no metal bats, as Patsy suggests might be the case. How does Patsy know that they are expensive if he doesn't own one? Does this seem like the type of knowledge someone like Patsy Ramsey would possess without having bought a metal bat for her son?

 

[tipper]

..
As for the heavy sleeper/light sleeper, I really don't think bedwetting has anything to do with it. At early ages, all children wet the bed. It has nothing to do with heavy or light sleepers. It has to do with being toilet-trained for starters. If you're a heavy sleeper at age 40, does that mean you still wet the bed? It's human nature, something that comes as you grow up. When you have to go to the bathroom, you wake up. It just comes later for some people.

...

http://www.drgreene.com/21_586.html

For many years, parents of bed-wetting children have claimed that their children were deep sleepers. Physicians have usually disagreed with this, citing evidence from sleep EEGs showing that bed-wetting children went through the same stages of sleep as other children, at the same frequency, and that bed-wetting can occur at any stage of sleep.

I have never heard a parent come in and say, "My child spends too much time in stage four sleep." They just say that their children are deep sleepers and are difficult to wake up. A year ago, researchers in Canada performed a simple, but powerful, study where they put headphones on children in a sleep lab. They began the study by allowing the children to get used to sleeping with the headphones on. Then they began introducing tones through the headphones. They measured the minimum volume it took to wake each child. The study showed that the children in the bed-wetting group were dramatically more difficult to wake up than normal controls -- confirming what parents have known for years!

 

[Rainsong]

Hmm, yes, the quote is from the autopsy report and that is exactly why I quoted it--so there would be no mistake about what Dr. Meyer stated. Please note his choide of words--"which may represent". In no way did I suggest the pathologist failed to examine the food remnants. I am saying he did not determine it was pineapple since that is not his area of expertise. Steve Thomas' words have been disproven many times, so yes, I question the veracity of any of his comments in reference to food remnants.

Heavy sleeper/light sleeper: see Tipper's post below, but I do have to correct you on one point--not all children wet the bed. Neither of my children ever had an accident of this kind. Vomit, yes, urinate in the bed, no. And no, not all people wake up when they have to urinate.

No, I don't believe JonBenet would have thrown a fit necessarily because there is no proof she even woke up. Children who are exhausted, such as after a full, exciting Christmas, may very well sleep through a tornado, let alone someone lifting them from their bed.

"but not what they learned." Fascinating.

How does one know any particular article is expensive? One doesn't have to have purchased a Maserati to know they are out of reach of most consumers.

Rainsong

 

[Lacy Wood]

Hmm, yes, the quote is from the autopsy report and that is exactly why I quoted it--so there would be no mistake about what Dr. Meyer stated. Please note his choide of words--"which may represent". In no way did I suggest the pathologist failed to examine the food remnants. I am saying he did not determine it was pineapple since that is not his area of expertise. Steve Thomas' words have been disproven many times, so yes, I question the veracity of any of his comments in reference to food remnants.

Heavy sleeper/light sleeper: see Tipper's post below, but I do have to correct you on one point--not all children wet the bed. Neither of my children ever had an accident of this kind. Vomit, yes, urinate in the bed, no. And no, not all people wake up when they have to urinate.

No, I don't believe JonBenet would have thrown a fit necessarily because there is no proof she even woke up. Children who are exhausted, such as after a full, exciting Christmas, may very well sleep through a tornado, let alone someone lifting them from their bed.

"but not what they learned." Fascinating.

How does one know any particular article is expensive? One doesn't have to have purchased a Maserati to know they are out of reach of most consumers.

Rainsong

Just for clarification, medical professionals frequently use the word "may" to represent the lack of absolute certainty in written records, which may be subject to critical review. It's called professional discretion and is viewed as a sign of objectivity and proper caution in reaching conclusions...and I have read and written 1000s using a lot of "may". You do have to pin a doc down verbally to get their true level of certainty. The bowl of pineapple on the table would pretty much guarantee he believes it was pineapple.

On the other hand, comparing a kids baseball bat to the cost of a Maserati????

 

[Voice of Reason]

Please note his choide of words--"which may represent".

If you're not a medical professional, you really need to stop quoting from the autopsy report. Autopsy reports are not written to be later interpreted...they are written to establish facts. The coroner knew exactly what he was writing in that report, and to hear you constantly twisting and interpreting his words to fit what you think they mean is just ridiculous. Nobody on either side of the fence is questioning that there was pineapple in JBR. And if they did question it, they could speak with the coroner about what he was actually saying as opposed to having an online debate about it.

"but not what they learned." Fascinating.

I don't know whether you are attacking me or the system here, but let me assure you that is exactly how the law stands. If a witness goes in to testify about what he heard/saw, and the grand jury asks him questions which give him other knowledge about the crime or circumstances around the crime, he cannot share that information...only the information he had prior to seeing the grand jury. It's not that difficult of a concept.

How does one know any particular article is expensive? One doesn't have to have purchased a Maserati to know they are out of reach of most consumers.

Great example! Makes a lot of sense. Are you really questioning the fact that Patsy would have no clue how much an aluminum baseball bat cost unless she bought one for Burke?

 

[Rainsong]

LITTLE LEAGUE DOES NOT ALLOW USE OF WOODEN BATS!

Burke had to have owned a metal bat because that is the only type he could use to play little league. I bought one for my son and the really good ones are expensive...hundred dollars on up.

Patsy knows about the bats because she is the one who bought them. She was the one responsible for the shopping and therefore knows the price of bats. I boggles the mind that she would complain about the price....but then again, little league does not award tiaras for championships.

**^**

Uhm, not so. http://www.littleleague.org/common/equipment/view.asp?id=18

All bats must meet certain specifications and there are LL approved wooden bats.

Rainsong

 

[Rainsong]

Just for clarification, medical professionals frequently use the word "may" to represent the lack of absolute certainty in written records, which may be subject to critical review. It's called professional discretion and is viewed as a sign of objectivity and proper caution in reaching conclusions...and I have read and written 1000s using a lot of "may". You do have to pin a doc down verbally to get their true level of certainty. The bowl of pineapple on the table would pretty much guarantee he believes it was pineapple.

On the other hand, comparing a kids baseball bat to the cost of a Maserati????

Meyer is not a botanist; he is a pathologist, therefore he chose the correct word, 'may.'

Comparing a baseball bat to a Maserati--why not? What I am comparing isn't important. What is important is many people know Maseratis/Jaguars/fur coats/custom leather boots/caviar are expensive without ever having purchased said items. To state one could only know an item is expensive because they bought one is incorrect.

Rainsong

 

[Jayelles]

I think you cannot compare maserati's with baseball bats because baseball bats are considerably more insignificant and specialised than cars.

For example - you might know what kind of car your neighbour drives, but do you know what make of tennis raquet he has? Would you know what is a good brand of tennis raquet? You might if you were a tennis player. You don't need to drive or even own a car to know that a maserati is a fast and expensive car!

 

[Rainsong]

Rainsong, you have to give BlueCrab some ground on this issue. The Ramseys, in their private moments, would never have reason to question Burke about his ownership of the bat, because they would have reason to use it as evidence of an intruder if they wanted to point away from themselves. I mean, really, look at what Patsy said about it in 1998:

No, I don't believe I have to give Blue Crab any ground. If there was any doubt in the minds of the Ramseys or Lin Wood about the specifics of bat ownership, it would not have been included in the lawsuit against FOX because it could have been so easily disproven, thus putting said lawsuit on tenuous ground.

IF he had one? Come on, even you have to find that an unbelievable thing for Patsy to say about her Little League son who was photographed owning a not-inexpensive brand-name Louisville Slugger baseball mitt. And to put the intruder icing on the cake, Patsy claims Burke was unlikely to have one because it was metal? Which is not cheap? Patsy spent thousands on JonBenet's pageant clothes and fees. John spent tens of thousands of dollars building a custom boat for himself. Do you really want people to buy into the image of a family which begrudged its oldest son a few more dollars for a metal bat? Because Patsy sure wanted investigators to believe that, as you can see.

I own some quite expensive items, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to spend proportionate amounts of money on items for my children, particularly if said item will end up dented and dinged, thus requiring frequent replacement.

Rainsong

 

[Lacy Wood]

Meyer is not a botanist; he is a pathologist, therefore he chose the correct word, 'may.'

Comparing a baseball bat to a Maserati--why not? What I am comparing isn't important. What is important is many people know Maseratis/Jaguars/fur coats/custom leather boots/caviar are expensive without ever having purchased said items. To state one could only know an item is expensive because they bought one is incorrect.

Rainsong

I presume you now suggest only a "botanist" could accurately comment on partially digested stomach contents such as fruits etc, not a trained pathologist who had experience with such matters. I understand how you could think this since I've read your posts. You may want to notify the American Pathology Association of your findings and request Botanists for future autopsies.

Actually your baseball bat-Maserati comparison wasn't so bad vis-a-vis the one comparing recalling your child's death to which foot goes in the shower first.

 

[why_nutt]

No, I don't believe I have to give Blue Crab any ground. If there was any doubt in the minds of the Ramseys or Lin Wood about the specifics of bat ownership, it would not have been included in the lawsuit against FOX because it could have been so easily disproven, thus putting said lawsuit on tenuous ground.

As history has shown, the entire lawsuit against Fox was a Hail Mary pass at getting some more money for the Ramseys, so throwing the bat into the mix was not a deal-maker or a deal-breaker for them, being just one minor component they had to try to desperately connect to an intruder. You have to know that if a pageant director had not come forward with proof, the Ramseys would to this day also claim the Santa bear never belonged to JonBenet, either, because they did try to do that and it failed.

I own some quite expensive items, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to spend proportionate amounts of money on items for my children, particularly if said item will end up dented and dinged, thus requiring frequent replacement.

Come on. Be serious. All children's bicycles get dented and dinged, and the Ramseys continued to purchase them anyway. A bat, by definition, gets dented and dinged, even the wooden ones, because they are being hit by hard baseballs every single time they are used, yet this did not stop Patsy from ensuring Burke always belonged to a baseball team, even when they moved back to Atlanta in 1997. Again, come on. Patsy bought JonBenet an expensive antique Victorian-era chair just because JonBenet wanted it. Do you really think that chair was put behind glass and never touched by the roughousing hands and feet of a rambunctious six-year-old, let alone her friends and Burke's older pals? I think it was not put behind glass. I think it got its own dings from a contemporary little girl, and if JonBenet had wanted another one, I think the evidence shows that John Ramsey would have been more than happy to pay for it, because he was a tightwad about everything except his own happiness and that of his children. (Yes, I leave Patsy out of this spending spree. While JonBenet got expensive antique chairs, Patsy subsisted on free cosmetic samples from her sister, and bought her jewelry at K-Mart.)

 

[capps]

The cost of the baseball bat does not matter ... again,that was Patsy just throwing it in there,so she could side step the question that was asked of her. Like she and John have been doing over and over with every question they are ever asked.

Aren't John and Patsy smart!

 

[Voice of Reason]

No, I don't believe I have to give Blue Crab any ground. If there was any doubt in the minds of the Ramseys or Lin Wood about the specifics of bat ownership, it would not have been included in the lawsuit against FOX because it could have been so easily disproven, thus putting said lawsuit on tenuous ground.

The Ramseys are free to enter any evidence they'd like to suggest an intruder, and as long as PR can claim she is unsure whether it was Burke's bat, the Ramseys should offer it as evidence. It will be good evidence until FOX rebuts it...IF they rebut it. Plus, it is not dispositive evidence, so if it turns out it is Burke's, Patsy says oops, and life goes on.

PS...the Ramseys lost that lawsuit (but I doubt it had anything to do with the bat)

 

[Rainsong]

As history has shown, the entire lawsuit against Fox was a Hail Mary pass at getting some more money for the Ramseys, so throwing the bat into the mix was not a deal-maker or a deal-breaker for them, being just one minor component they had to try to desperately connect to an intruder. You have to know that if a pageant director had not come forward with proof, the Ramseys would to this day also claim the Santa bear never belonged to JonBenet, either, because they did try to do that and it failed.



Come on. Be serious. All children's bicycles get dented and dinged, and the Ramseys continued to purchase them anyway. A bat, by definition, gets dented and dinged, even the wooden ones, because they are being hit by hard baseballs every single time they are used, yet this did not stop Patsy from ensuring Burke always belonged to a baseball team, even when they moved back to Atlanta in 1997. Again, come on. Patsy bought JonBenet an expensive antique Victorian-era chair just because JonBenet wanted it. Do you really think that chair was put behind glass and never touched by the roughousing hands and feet of a rambunctious six-year-old, let alone her friends and Burke's older pals? I think it was not put behind glass. I think it got its own dings from a contemporary little girl, and if JonBenet had wanted another one, I think the evidence shows that John Ramsey would have been more than happy to pay for it, because he was a tightwad about everything except his own happiness and that of his children. (Yes, I leave Patsy out of this spending spree. While JonBenet got expensive antique chairs, Patsy subsisted on free cosmetic samples from her sister, and bought her jewelry at K-Mart.)

If you take the time to read the regulations regarding Little League bats, you will find that they must fit through a bat ring. If they are dented to the point where they will no longer fit the ring, they are no longer useable.

Rainsong

 

[Rainsong]

I presume you now suggest only a "botanist" could accurately comment on partially digested stomach contents such as fruits etc, not a trained pathologist who had experience with such matters. I understand how you could think this since I've read your posts. You may want to notify the American Pathology Association of your findings and request Botanists for future autopsies.

Actually your baseball bat-Maserati comparison wasn't so bad vis-a-vis the one comparing recalling your child's death to which foot goes in the shower first.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying Meyer used the word 'may' be remnants of pineapple because his education was not in the field of botany. Had this case ever gone to court, the prosecution would have to show, by use of an expert in the field, whether or not the remnants were actually pineapple. Meyer would have been able to testify as to what it 'may' have been, but not that it 'was' pineapple.

My analogies may not suit your taste, but they suit my purposes.

Rainsong

 

[why_nutt]

If you take the time to read the regulations regarding Little League bats, you will find that they must fit through a bat ring. If they are dented to the point where they will no longer fit the ring, they are no longer useable.

Rainsong

I have taken that time. Apparently you have not taken the time to note that this is a new rule, a change in the 2005 rules. It was not true in 1996.

 

[Rainsong]

I have taken that time. Apparently you have not taken the time to note that this is a new rule, a change in the 2005 rules. It was not true in 1996.

Be that as it may, a dented bat doesn't get the job done--hitting the ball the way the hitter intends.

Rainsong