Is the fact that Terri hasn't been arrested indicative of lack of evidence?

[Aedrys]

What does everyone think about this quote (from the amend motion) "based on hearsay statements from the police that there was probable cause to believe Respondent allegedly tried to hire someone to murder petitioner,and that the respondent was involved in the disappearance of Kyron"

I find the bolded statement particularly odd, here is a wikipedia link to the word hearsay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay_in_United_States_law).

It's legalese for he said/she said. How else would you expect the defense to respond? Of course, they're going to assert that LE doesn't have any evidence to back up their claim of the MFH.

 

[mmmagique]

They are calling it hearsay because Kaine stated that the LE told him it was true. They didn't hear it directly from LE.

That is hearsay.

They have, however, never contested it, which in itself is interesting. If there were absolutely NO evidence because nothing like that EVER happened, Terri would be telling her lawyers to go ahead and contest it. SHE has the control over what they do, not them.

She seems to have some concern over exactly what kind of evidence they *may* have. (imo)

 

[JBean]

They are calling it hearsay because Kaine stated that the LE told him it was true. They didn't hear it directly from LE.

That is hearsay.

They have, however, never contested it, which in itself is interesting. If there were absolutely NO evidence because nothing like that EVER happened, Terri would be telling her lawyers to go ahead and contest it. SHE has the control over what they do, not them.

She seems to have some concern over exactly what kind of evidence they *may* have. (imo)

Actually it is hearsay coming from LE because they did not witness it firsthand and they gave the info to KH. LE told KH about the alleged mfh plot.

 

[JBean]

the atty again fully acknowledges that LE is targeting TH in their investigation.

 

[OneLove]

If they absolutely knew of an accomplice, why wouldn't that accomplice have been arrested already though? And why would they still be asking people with information to come forward so they can break the case and bring Kyron home?

IMHO, they still looking for an accomplice. And it's got to be one of two reasons, A. they know TH could not have done this by herself or B. someone saw TH with someone who they think may be an accomplice. JMHO

BBM

Again, there are MANY reasons why arrests/indictments are NOT made the second LE has evidence.

In the past 5 years, I think many of us can name more than a few high profile cases in which arrests were not made immediately. In fact, you can just look in the Websleuths forum index. Its packed.

It is rare these days for an arrest to be made immediately upon gaining some evidence. Again, there are many GOOD reasons for this. Usually, a better, more airtight case is made during the wait, the prosecution team and plan is laid, and preparations are being made across the board behind many doors.

 

[DreamyEye]

When it comes to MFH, I keep going back to the judge who granted a RO, awarded custody of the baby to Kaine, and barred TH from having even supervised visits with her own child. There must have been something pretty compelling in whatever "evidence" was presented to him, or he would have left it open for TH to have supervised visits. Maybe he wasn't given enough evidence to prove MFH, or her involvement in Kyron's disappearance--but something stronger than speculation, surely. ???

 

[BeanE]

When it comes to MFH, I keep going back to the judge who granted a RO, awarded custody of the baby to Kaine, and barred TH from having even supervised visits with her own child. There must have been something pretty compelling in whatever "evidence" was presented to him, or he would have left it open for TH to have supervised visits. Maybe he wasn't given enough evidence to prove MFH, or her involvement in Kyron's disappearance--but something stronger than speculation, surely. ???

No evidence was presented to him. He went by Kaine's hearsay (not my word, but how his statements in the RO are legally viewed under the circumstances). This is because Terri didn't contest the RO. Because she didn't contest it, Kaine/his attorney didn't have to present any evidence.

This has been explained several times by our verified attorneys in the questions for lawyers thread, as well as by them throughout our other threads.

 

[BeanE]

BBM

Again, there are MANY reasons why arrests/indictments are NOT made the second LE has evidence.

In the past 5 years, I think many of us can name more than a few high profile cases in which arrests were not made immediately. In fact, you can just look in the Websleuths forum index. Its packed.

It is rare these days for an arrest to be made immediately upon gaining some evidence. Again, there are many GOOD reasons for this. Usually, a better, more airtight case is made during the wait, the prosecution team and plan is laid, and preparations are being made across the board behind many doors.

BBM. I completely disagree. When I look at all these cases, what I see is that LE arrests as soon as they have evidence and reasonable assurance of conviction.

It looks to me like LE arrests as soon as they possibly can, even arresting for lesser and/or unrelated charges, just to get the person in jail. And that's what I expect them to do - their job - get the criminals off the street immediately.

Elizabeth Johnson was arrested immediately - the day after they found her. LE believes she murdered Gabriel, doesn't have the evidence, so they arrested her on lesser charges - kidnapping etc.

They just arrested Lok's mother on unrelated charges.

The perp in Somer's case - arrested on child *advertiser censored* charges.

I could go on and on and on.

Rare that LE arrests when they have evidence? I don't buy it for a second. I mean, come on. LE is not letting skads of criminals roam the streets throughout the U.S. while holding evidence, and only rarely arresting them.

That just portrays LE as a bunch of keystone cops with no ethics, not doing the jobs the taxpaying citizens are paying them for.

I'm using plain old common sense on this one.

:cow:

 

[Donjeta]

How about the Zahra Baker case for comparison? It's early days yet but I am waiting for them to arrest Adam Baker for something. They said they have warrants for him on unrelated charges and have not acted on them yet. On the other hand they arrested Zahras stepmother the day after she was reported missing. They had been holding those open warrants on her for a while without apparently doing much to prevent her running around the streets committing more crimes.

 

[BeanE]

I think it was this thread where there were questions as to whether the mfh plot really came from the police. The motion filed today regarding visitation spells it out pretty clearly that LE was the source of the mfh plot.

Read the Motion for visitation here But don't forget there is a thread for discussion of the motion itself.

I don't think there has been any question what the RO is based on, because we have the RO application, in which Kaine asserts his reason for requesting the RO - hearsay from LE - as this new document states.

This document is referring to that assertion by Kaine. Based on my limited legal knowledge, in this instance from the forgery charges in Gabe's case, that document, the RO application, is legally considered a sworn statement.

This document therefore is not confirmation that the MFH info came from LE, but that the RO is based on what Kaine swore to in the RO - hearsay from LE.

Whether that hearsay (that LE has probable cause etc.) indeed came from LE remains a question in mind, due to MCSO's denial that it did.

My understanding, thoughts, opinion. IANAL.

 

[BeanE]

What does everyone think about this quote (from the amend motion) "based on hearsay statements from the police that there was probable cause to believe Respondent allegedly tried to hire someone to murder petitioner,and that the respondent was involved in the disappearance of Kyron"

I find the bolded statement particularly odd, here is a wikipedia link to the word hearsay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay_in_United_States_law).

I think of this as double hearsay - Kaine's hearsay that LE told him stuff, which at this point, is still hearsay.

Kaine's assertions in the RO application are hearsay (to me) because he's yet to present evidence that LE told him anything, and LE's statements as alleged by Kaine are hearsay (to me) because they've yet to present evidence that they have probable cause etc.

 

[BeanE]

How about the Zahra Baker case for comparison? It's early days yet but I am waiting for them to arrest Adam Baker for something. They said they have warrants for him on unrelated charges and have not acted on them yet. On the other hand they arrested Zahras stepmother the day after she was reported missing. They had been holding those open warrants on her for a while without apparently doing much to prevent her running around the streets committing more crimes.

My impression, without having actually gathered any case info to do a legitimate statistical analysis, is that LE most often does their job and gets the criminals off the street asap.

If I find out they most often don't do their job... I'm gonna be mighty upset, starting in my own community, where I pay megabucks in tax dollars.

If it's rare for LE to arrest when they have the sufficient elements to do so, then it stands to reason there would be chaos and mayhem in the streets. It would be like, hmmmmm, Escape from New York kinda, outside my window. But all is calm and peaceful on this lovely morning where I am.

 

[loves2bmom]

BBM. I completely disagree. When I look at all these cases, what I see is that LE arrests as soon as they have evidence and reasonable assurance of conviction.

It looks to me like LE arrests as soon as they possibly can, even arresting for lesser and/or unrelated charges, just to get the person in jail. And that's what I expect them to do - their job - get the criminals off the street immediately.

Elizabeth Johnson was arrested immediately - the day after they found her. LE believes she murdered Gabriel, doesn't have the evidence, so they arrested her on lesser charges - kidnapping etc.

They just arrested Lok's mother on unrelated charges.

The perp in Somer's case - arrested on child *advertiser censored* charges.

I could go on and on and on.

Rare that LE arrests when they have evidence? I don't buy it for a second. I mean, come on. LE is not letting skads of criminals roam the streets throughout the U.S. while holding evidence, and only rarely arresting them.

That just portrays LE as a bunch of keystone cops with no ethics, not doing the jobs the taxpaying citizens are paying them for.

I'm using plain old common sense on this one.

:cow:

I agree with you in the general sense but I think this case is much more complex and involves more than one person. I just think they want to make sure they straighten out every detail before moving foreward. If she looked to be ready to scram out of the country or something, I bet you'd see them arrest her for a lesser charge. She looks to be staying put so they're taking as much time as they can to get it right and also to find Kyron. If they found Kyron, I also think an arrest is immediate. I hate to keep bringing up Scott Peterson but it's similar in many ways.

 

[BeanE]

I agree with you in the general sense but I think this case is much more complex and involves more than one person. I just think they want to make sure they straighten out every detail before moving foreward. If she looked to be ready to scram out of the country or something, I bet you'd see them arrest her for a lesser charge. She looks to be staying put so they're taking as much time as they can to get it right and also to find Kyron. If they found Kyron, I also think an arrest is immediate. I hate to keep bringing up Scott Peterson but it's similar in many ways.

If there were more than one person involved, I think they'd arrest each one as sufficient evidence for charges for each person came available.

If there are accomplices, then they are people who are willing to harm children, and it would put all other children in the area at risk, with nothing whatever to protect them.

I just can't wrap my head around LE acting on a premise of 'We have all this evidence against Frankie, and Suzie, and Joey, but hey, let's just let these child murderers and kidnappers run around loose in the community with no warnings to parents until maybe we can nail a few more. We'll just hope the other kids in the neighborhood will survive. And we'll do this task force for another four months.'

It just doesn't work for me.

 

[loves2bmom]

If there were more than one person involved, I think they'd arrest each one as sufficient evidence for charges for each person came available.

If there are accomplices, then they are people who are willing to harm children, and it would put all other children in the area at risk, with nothing whatever to protect them.

I just can't wrap my head around LE acting on a premise of 'We have all this evidence against Frankie, and Suzie, and Joey, but hey, let's just let these child murderers and kidnappers run around loose in the community with no warnings to parents until maybe we can nail a few more. We'll just hope the other kids in the neighborhood will survive. And we'll do this task force for another four months.'

It just doesn't work for me.

Well again, I don't think that's the case here. IMO the people who commited this crime are not randomly going around kidnapping and murdering children. This was isolated as LE has said many times. The case is circumstancial at this point and arresting too soon is running the risk of someone getting away with this. I'd rather they take the time if no one else is at risk and it appears that is the case here. Only going by what we're being fed though.....

 

[BeanE]

Well again, I don't think that's the case here. IMO the people who commited this crime are not randomly going around kidnapping and murdering children. This was isolated as LE has said many times. The case is circumstancial at this point and arresting too soon is running the risk of someone getting away with this. I'd rather they take the time if no one else is at risk and it appears that is the case here. Only going by what we're being fed though.....

It's just too much of a stretch for me, loves2b, that LE would just trust that a group of people who would kidnap and/or murder one child, would not harm another child, and simply let them roam free.

 

[Kat010]

It's just too much of a stretch for me, loves2b, that LE would just trust that a group of people who would kidnap and/or murder one child, would not harm another child, and simply let them roam free.

No, that doesn't make sense at all. Let's assume, unfairly, that TH & DD and Someone X did this crime to..hmmm..get back at Kaine. Well, then, what's to stop this horrible band of criminals from snatching baby K? If they're free and on the streets, they could do that, or they could add in other gang members to do that. Maybe for revenge they'd go after DY's other child, even though he doesn't live with her.

All of that sounds pretty darned ridiculous to me.

If I know that there's a guy up the street who the cops have evidence enough to arrest for say, rape, or B&E, and they don't arrest him, I'd be raising all kinds of heck.

We're not talking about a few days here. We're talking about months, with more than a million dollars invested, untold manhours, and so far, LE has come up with nothing that has enabled an arrest. Nothing.

If they have evidence on any crime, and don't arrest, IMHO that is serious professional misconduct and should be investigated. Especially given how much they've put into interviews, posters (which did yield a worker and a white truck at the school they failed to find on their own by asking about occasional workers), and other items, you'd think that they would be eager to improve their public image by making an arrest.

In fact, I'd bet that if they could, they'd have a huge press event to show TH in handcuffs surrounded by LE. They need to repair their image, and I have no doubt that they will seize her in a New York minute if they think they have enough evidence on even a traffic violation.

I just can't imagine LE just not using evidence to effect an arrest. If, that is, they actually have it.

 

[SurfieTX]

It saddens me that I am this jaded, but the arrest/nonarrest issue hinges directly on the fact that Terri hired Houze and did so posthaste. Had she not hired Houze and had to get a court-appointed attorney, she would be arrested by now. MOO.

 

[Kat010]

It saddens me that I am this jaded, but the arrest/nonarrest issue hinges directly on the fact that Terri hired Houze and did so posthaste. Had she not hired Houze and had to get a court-appointed attorney, she would be arrested by now. MOO.

Very interesting viewpoint, thank you for sharing!

So, basically, a court-appointed attorney can't be relied upon to do a good job? That ties in with what many have written about and studied: justice comes with a price tag. What do you think about that?

They haven't arrested her because of Houze? Doesn't that say that they don't have enough solid evidence to go up against a master attorney?

If they're sure of what they have, it shouldn't --theoretically--matter who her attorney is. Theoretically.

 

[SurfieTX]

Very interesting viewpoint, thank you for sharing!

So, basically, a court-appointed attorney can't be relied upon to do a good job? That ties in with what many have written about and studied: justice comes with a price tag. What do you think about that?

They haven't arrested her because of Houze? Doesn't that say that they don't have enough solid evidence to go up against a master attorney?

If they're sure of what they have, it shouldn't --theoretically--matter who her attorney is. Theoretically.

No, it shouldn't matter, but it does in reality. I've seen it first hand with family members. That and a court-appointed attorney is not going to have the resources to hire a private investigator, expert witnesses, etc. They'll get you the best plea agreement they can and in some cases really pressure you to take a plea (I've seen that too). And yes, it does speak to me that there is not enough rock-solid evidence to match Houze's skills.

I can't even begin to imagine how much the trial will cost and how the community will react to that. I've seen a few editorials that were pretty harsh on the 1 million dollar price tag for the investigation alone.