Israel - Palestinian militants launch massive attack, 7 Oct 2023 #4

[MyBelle]

My thought as well. I’m sure it has already been mentioned earlier today up thread that the carefully crafted propaganda hostage video released yesterday on Telegram was at least 6 days old (meta data was analyzed). I fear they have all been killed.

I think the "hostages" were taken for the sole purpose of planting the idea that they would be held captive in the maze of tunnels.

JMO

 

[Cedars]

I'm simply stating that people in Gaza should not be broadcasting stories about what they fear might happen in a month when their government has waged a genocidal, barbaric war today against civilians in another nation.

Well, I'm simply stating: that is just your opinion. I'm talking about being rational.

Obviously, the whole problem in the Middle East is too many people with life or death convictions about what other people, with completely different religious/ ethnic/ cultural/ historical backgrounds "should" or "should not" do.

We are trying to overcome this problem in the West, where we have the benefit of wealth, education and peace, to over-ride those knee-jerk attempts to force other people to think exactly like we do. (We can't even get our own children to think like we do!).

It's one thing when people only had knives, but now everyone has devastating bombs and wants nuclear weapons.

The only hope, IMO, is to get off those high horses and try to focus on what we have in common.

JMO

 

[Chimera]

You do know that birth related deaths went down dramatically way back when pregnant women and their babies were given proper medical care in hospitals right? And it's still not 100% certain both will survive. This woman has every right to "complain".

I think the OP's point was that she is alive, and no one is going to do to her what was done by Hamas to the other lady ?
She should be grateful to be comparatively safe.
If there's a lack of good medical care the burden is on Hamas.
So she could speak out now, and condemn Hamas and the regime that is causing them so much suffering.

If there's a lack of quality medical care, doctors or even safe hospitals, who's fault is that ?
It's not Israel, the UN, America, or anyone else.
Money has been poured into Palestine, much of it from the United States.

U.S. Support for the Palestinian People - United States Department of State

Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken will meet with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in Ramallah and representatives of Palestinian civil society in Jerusalem on March 27. The Secretary will reaffirm the U.S. commitment to the Palestinian people and the Administration’s support for a...

www.state.gov

Since April 2021, the United States has provided over half a billion dollars in assistance for the Palestinians, including more than $417 million in humanitarian assistance for Palestinian refugees through UNRWA, $75 million in support through USAID, and $20.5 million in COVID and Gaza recovery assistance.
Palestine should have well-equipped medical facilities by now.
Unless ... Hamas seized most of the $$ ?

Who funds Hamas? A global network of crypto, cash and charities

Palestinian militant group Hamas uses a global financing network to funnel support from charities and friendly nations, passing cash through Gaza tunnels or using cryptocurrencies to bypass international sanctions, according to experts and officials.

www.reuters.com

LONDON/DUBAI, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Palestinian militant group Hamas uses a global financing network to funnel support from charities and friendly nations, passing cash through Gaza tunnels or using cryptocurrencies to bypass international sanctions, according to experts and officials.

However, Hamas, which governs the Gaza Strip, will face even more obstacles accessing funds after the rampage by the group's gunmen that killed hundreds of Israelis, mainly civilians. Israel has responded with the heaviest bombardment of Gaza in 75 years of conflict.

Hamas has caused tremendous suffering to their own people.
It's sad that not many are speaking out publicly; maybe this will change ?
Omo.

 

[Momoffourboys]

Hamas official: We expected more support from Iran​

Hamas official: We expected more support from Iran

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Chimera]

I think the "hostages" were taken for the sole purpose of planting the idea that they would be held captive in the maze of tunnels.

JMO

They want to lure the Israeli soldiers down there and kill them all.
Idk what the answer is.

Maybe continue to shut off supplies, and the populace will revolt ?
Many Palestinians must know deep down -- that Hamas is essentially strangling them, and no one else.
Omo.

 

[otto]

My thought as well. I’m sure it has already been mentioned earlier today up thread that the carefully crafted propaganda hostage video released yesterday on Telegram was at least 6 days old (meta data was analyzed). I fear they have all been killed.

People want the hostages to be rescued from the tunnels, but it is almost a death sentence for Israeli soldiers to enter the tunnels.

I'm curious. Since many of the hostages are from other countries, such as the USA, have those other countries offered to provide military boots on the ground to enter the tunnels to assist the search for what are very likely hostage bodies?

A military response should be to bomb the tunnels and everything that it is in them, but that's not possible without knowing what has happened to the hostages. As long as the tunnels are intact, Israel cannot eliminate Hamas.

If the hostages are released in exchange for 8000 convicted prisoners, the tunnels will be destroyed and Hamas will be eliminated. Doesn't that mean that the hostages will never be released?

The video of the female hostage that was released yesterday - was that supposed to represent a proof of life?

 

[Momoffourboys]

This article was published a week before the massacre. Interesting read about Israelis and Palestinians building a village together.

In an Israeli Oasis, a Model for Peace, if Messy and Imperfect​

In a small village, Jews and Arabs have chosen to live side by side, share power and imagine a more hopeful future. But even here, the agonies of the conflict can’t be escaped entirely.

In an Israeli Oasis, a Model for Peace, if Messy and Imperfect

In a small village, Jews and Arabs have chosen to live side by side, share power and imagine a more hopeful future. But even here, the agonies of the conflict can’t be escaped entirely.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Momoffourboys]

People want the hostages to be rescued from the tunnels, but it is almost a death sentence for Israeli soldiers to enter the tunnels.

I'm curious. Since many of the hostages are from other countries, such as the USA, have those other countries offered to provide military boots on the ground to enter the tunnels to assist the search for what are very likely hostage bodies?

A military response should be to bomb the tunnels and everything that it is in them, but that's not possible without knowing what has happened to the hostages. As long as the tunnels are intact, Israel cannot eliminate Hamas.

If the hostages are released in exchange for 8000 convicted prisoners, the tunnels will be destroyed and Hamas will be eliminated. Doesn't that mean that the hostages will never be released?

The video of the female hostage that was released yesterday - was that supposed to represent a proof of life?

The hostage wasn’t released.
Hamas just shared a video of her. I read that analysts believe the video to be a week old. IMO

 

[Chimera]

More from @Dotta’s link about the tunnels, good piece by DAVID AVERRE

300-mile maze of Hamas tunnels standing in the way of Israeli troops

Although Israel's Defence Forces are well-trained, well-equipped and outnumber their Hamas foes considerably, the hellish battlefield that awaits them in Gaza could cause huge casualties

www.dailymail.co.uk

“Hamas 'knows its tunnels by heart,' said Colin Clarke, research director at the New York-based Soufan Center think-tank.

'Some are probably booby-trapped. Preparing to fight in such terrain... would require extensive intelligence... which the Israelis may not have,' he added.

'When tunnels are found, they can be closed off to shut in the people inside. In this case, the order is likely to be for no quarter to be given.'”

[…]

“The IDF has long been trying - and failing - to destroy the huge network of tunnels which were established after Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in 2007.

Not only do they run underground throughout Gaza, but several reach into Israeli territory and have long served as a launch point for many of the Hamas' attacks.

Tunnels were among Hamas' most effective tools during the 2014 war with Israel, with militants using them to move weapons, enter the Jewish state, ambush IDF soldiers, and at times even return to Gaza through the underground passages.

But it is thought Hamas has expanded the network considerably since then, perhaps in preparation for their October 7 attacks.

The first Hamas tunnels were built in 2007 between the Gaza Strip and Egypt and were designed for smuggling consumer goods to bypass the Israeli blockade.

However, some rudimentary networks existed in Gaza as early as 2002. One was used to bomb an Israeli outpost within the Strip in 2004. A second tunnel bomb attack on an Israeli outpost took place in December 2004, killing five IDF soldiers.”

[…]

“Israel has long struggled to wipe the system out, despite top of the range military and intelligence equipment.

This is primarily because the tunnels, which are believed to have cost between $30 million (£21.3 million) and $90 million (£63.9 million) to build, are extremely difficult to detect from the air.
Some of the three dozen tunnels built since the end of the 2014 Israel-Gaza conflict are estimated to have cost $3 million ($2.13 million).

The tunnels are reinforced with concrete to protect them from airstrikes and from caving in.

Footage from inside some of the tunnels shows a sweaty and cramped environment, not tall enough for fighters to stand up straight.

But others are well constructed, reinforced and large enough for troops to sprint through or move contraband.

By 2013, the network had definitively pivoted away from the Egyptian border and towards Israel and there were at least three tunnels under the Israel-Gaza border, two of which were packed with explosives.

The underground network now branches hundreds of miles through the Gaza Strip reaching the towns of Khan Younis, Jabalia, and the Shati refugee camp. They also stretch into Israel.

The tunnels are used by Hamas and other Islamist groups in Gaza, including the Islamic Jihad movement in Palestine, all of whom say tunnels are needed for defence, and to get around the difficulties imposed by Israel's strict border controls.”

——-

A Palestinian militant emerges from a tunnel in Rafah, southern Gaza strip (file image)

The network of tunnels were built after Hamas took power in the Gaza Strip in 2007 and have since been used to launch several attacks on Israel (pictured, Palestinian militants in the tunnels)

Israeli soldiers aim their weapons toward their colleague dressed as a Palestinian militant, while he exits from a fake tunnel, during training session simulating urban fighting at the Zeelim army base, southern Israel, Jan. 4, 2022

Hamas uses the network to hide rockets and other munitions, facilitate communication within their organisations, conceal militants, launch attacks, and conduct training (pictured, a Palestinian youth crawls in a tunnel during a Hamas graduation ceremony)

Bbm.
Sad !!!!
He looks like maybe 17 ?
What a terrible legacy to pass down to their youth.

When I graduated HS, we had a party and my grandparents and some other relatives and friends came over.
My gran brought some of her amazing plants as gifts, for my flower garden.
I wasn't training to kill innocent people.
Omo.

 

[OtisC]

I think the "hostages" were taken for the sole purpose of planting the idea that they would be held captive in the maze of tunnels.

JMO

It's my opinion that they are being used for Hama's purposes just as many Gaza citizens.

Just my thoughts.

Otis

 

[Momoffourboys]

'Many children were burnt alive,' Zaka volunteer says​

ZAKA's spokesman Moti Bokatsin speaks about the work of caring for the dead in the communities attacked by Hamas.​

'Many children were burnt alive,' Zaka volunteer says

ZAKA's spokesman Moti Bokatsin speaks about the work of caring for the dead in the communities attacked by Hamas.

www.jpost.com

 

[Momoffourboys]

Israeli officials returned to the Erez Crossing on Israel's border with Gaza today for the time since the war's outbreak Ministry of Defense personnel assessed the damage caused by Hamas terrorists to the crossing's infrastructure

https://x.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1714323204301377773?s=20

Israel shows major damage to Erez Crossing with Gaza following Hamas assault

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Elley Mae]

'Hundreds killed in Israeli strike on hospital in Gaza', Hamas claims

Photographs out of Gaza showed fire engulfing the hospital halls, shattered glass and body parts scattered across the area. Hundreds of people were seeking shelter at the hospital during the blast.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Sundog]

Well, I'm simply stating: that is just your opinion. I'm talking about being rational.

Obviously, the whole problem in the Middle East is too many people with life or death convictions about what other people, with completely different religious/ ethnic/ cultural/ historical backgrounds "should" or "should not" do.

We are trying to overcome this problem in the West, where we have the benefit of wealth, education and peace, to over-ride those knee-jerk attempts to force other people to think exactly like we do. (We can't even get our own children to think like we do!).

It's one thing when people only had knives, but now everyone has devastating bombs and wants nuclear weapons.

The only hope, IMO, is to get off those high horses and try to focus on what we have in common.

JMO

Hamas and Hezbollah have nothing in common with people who just want to live in peace. Israel is a nation state in the Middle East, the only democratic nation in the region, and one of our staunchest allies. We start there.

 

[Charlot123]

We've seen footage of people from Gaza entering Israel after the slaughter to loot electronics, motorcycles, and property from the homes of murderers Israelis. It seems like some people want to define Hamas as a gang that is unlike the people of Gaza. I don't believe that.

Maybe the right way it to say, there are times that bring out the worst in people, and times that don’t? It is very hard for me to accept that ethnicities can be “all good” or “all bad”, I believe in statistics. As humans the Palestinian Arabs are the same people as everyone else.

In general, I was always consistent in saying since 9-11 that the Middle East probably shouldn’t be touched with a ten-foot-pole. I was against many political decisions in 2003. I lived through Soviet-Afghani war and saw how useless it was to even assume that we understand different cultures. We don’t.

Least of all - we can offer them neither our democracy nor our values. Perhaps the best policy would be maximally phasing out hydrocarbons in own households and leave the ME to own development with time.

That’s for the long-term. How to deal with humanitarian crisis in Gaza? First of all - yes, admit that it exists. That there are people there, too. Second, maybe remember that there was a humanitarian crisis in Dresden during WWII, and Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. Yes, there is historical guilt but that comes much later. During the war, there are sides. Allies and enemies. Israel is our ally? Yes. That’s it.

At least all will be Israeli’s decision and actions. For us - just help our allies the best we can.

(And remember, many felt compassion during 9-11 but a lot didn’t.)

 

[Leve]

It's a chance that he is taking.
Is their proof that he's being used as a human shield?

Their options aren't the best right now. He's choosing to stay and go from building to building. Hopefully, he will stay safe, but I have no idea.

There were people who would not evacuate during Katrina. Some stayed behind because of pets. Are we supposed to judge them?

Ummm yes quite definately. The people that didn't evacuate during Katrina put rescuers lives at risk. They also took time and resources away from other areas.

But at least they weren't helping terrorist - either by being a human shield or by spreading propaganda.

 

[Cedars]

Hamas and Hezbollah have nothing in common with people who just want to live in peace. Israel is a nation state in the Middle East, the only democratic nation in the region, and one of our staunchest allies. We start there.

I wasn't talking about Hamas, I was talking about pregnant women in Gaza.

Of course, Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations. They do all the things terrorist organizations do.

I thought that was well established, broadcast, documented, etc. I thought it was possible to have a wider discussion.

For example, after 911, when the US went into Afganistan after al Queda, there was lots of discussion about the plight of women and children in Afganistan. The US did not declare it's intention to kill lots of Afgani's as retaliation for the presence of Al Queda.

JMO

 

[LondonBloke]

Just wanted to wish all the mods on here, good luck.

 

[JennieM]

Scenes of chaos at hospital where hundreds were sheltering​

Tom Bateman
Middle East correspondent, in Jerusalem

Pictures emerging from Al Ahli Arab hospital show scenes of chaos - with bloodied and maimed casualties being rushed out on stretchers in the darkness.

Bodies and wrecked vehicles can be seen lying in the rubble strewn street outside.
Unconfirmed videos appeared to show a huge explosion shortly beforehand.

Hundreds of displaced people had been sheltering in a hall on the hospital grounds, according to locals.

Civil defence officials say the explosion was the result of an Israeli airstrike and that hundreds are trapped in the rubble. The Israeli military says it is looking into the incident.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67119233

 

[Gypsy Road]

People want the hostages to be rescued from the tunnels, but it is almost a death sentence for Israeli soldiers to enter the tunnels.

I'm curious. Since many of the hostages are from other countries, such as the USA, have those other countries offered to provide military boots on the ground to enter the tunnels to assist the search for what are very likely hostage bodies?

A military response should be to bomb the tunnels and everything that it is in them, but that's not possible without knowing what has happened to the hostages. As long as the tunnels are intact, Israel cannot eliminate Hamas.

If the hostages are released in exchange for 8000 convicted prisoners, the tunnels will be destroyed and Hamas will be eliminated. Doesn't that mean that the hostages will never be released?

The video of the female hostage that was released yesterday - was that supposed to represent a proof of life?

Last night there was a report that Hamas released a stmt they they will release non Israeli hostages if certain conditions were meant. Okay Hamas - we believe you. Not.

Hamas says non-Israeli hostages may be released if ‘necessary conditions are available’

Hamas released a video saying it would release non-Israeli hostages “if the necessary conditions are available.” NBC News’ Richard Engel has more details.

www.nbcnews.com

Regarding the hostage video released. They are playing psychological mind games. That video was taken at least 6 days ago and it was carefully crafted by them to make people believe they are taking care of the hostages . They can’t control the narrative no matter how much they try. We’ve seen the civilian videos posted on social media of the real reality of what they are doing to those hostages.