Jahi’s family wants her declared 'alive again’

[MyBelle]

Well there's several things here that have been discussed at length, so most I won't continue discussing. But the one thing that really hasn't been is the questioning of the menstrual cycle...so let's explore that a little bit.

The menstrual cycle is governed by hormones in the body secreted or instructed by various organs, one of them being the pituitary gland. The pituitary gland secretes hormones which essentially instruct the ovaries to release an egg, and there's also the combined process of the uterus "cleaning" its self of it's lining when a successful fertilization of an egg has not been detected within the whole process. Knowing that a uterus will release its lining (the menses) even without the presence of an egg having ever been released by the ovaries, one can say that a full menstrual cycle has not actually occurred here with this brain dead corpse, without any documented credible evidence saying that the menses was fully examined to identify an unfertilized egg.

Next, we know that every hormone of the body has been artificially replicated and many people actually live their entire lives having received artificial injections of hormones in order to properly maintain the balance required within a body's chemistry to live and thrive, it can be said that with the absence of an entire pituitary gland - dead or alive - a menstrual cycle can be artificially maintained or even started by circulating artificial hormones normally supplied by the pituitary gland (and other organs).

Since we already know that they're bombarding the body with hundreds of dollars of store-bought vitamins, nutrients, chemicals, and yes, hormones, we can also possibly assume they're likely injecting it with essential hormones for a menstrual cycle to appear.

Dolan and his team are very careful about releasing information that supports their position, and holding back information that would invariably prove anything they say as being wrong or factually inconsistent. So, why not publish a list of every chemical or supplement they're providing the body artificially, along with their claim that the body has started a menstrual cycle? I don't need to argue the why here, because that's obvious: who in their right mind would deliberately discredit themselves on purpose by releasing all the facts, instead of just the ones that support their claims, especially when they're trying to convince a court of law? Attorneys are extremely adept at this intentional release of some evidence, and deliberately holding back of other facts.

To be an objective observer and opine on something, one cannot simply just blindly believe what one person tells them to be a fact. Consideration of ALL available and potential evidence is necessary in order to form a hypothesis, then theory, and finally a scientific fact.

One also can not opine something is fact without supporting it with a link.

I don't believe injecting anything into a corpse is going to result in menstruation. Furthermore, not a single one of the physicians tied to this case have claimed it is possible.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Yes and no.

Most physicians who do research are M.D.s and possibly M.D./Ph.D. They also run clinics and do surgery and all of that.

Many Ph.D.s teach school.

I suppose we could get into the nitty gritty of disciplines, but in my experience, having gone though medical school and residency and now private practice with my husband, ALL of the researchers he worked with at teaching institutions are, in fact, M.D.s

YMMV

I also don't know any professors (in my family) who would agree they are equal to a medical doctor.

But we don't really need this to be a contest here about who is right. Maybe we are both right.

But as I said, in MY knowledge of well-known and well-respected teaching hospitals, ALL the researchers were M.D.s and also worked a few days a week as medical doctor in a clinical and/or surgical setting.

Research labs at medical schools are usually headed by PhDs in the discipline of microbiology, neuroscience, biochemistry, etc. They are scientists and Rutgers is no exception. An M.D. is usually involved in research by having patients enrolled in clinical trials. They are held in the same high esteem professionally by the AAMC.

http://njms.rutgers.edu/resource_locator/find_people/profile.cfm?mbmid=bocarsly#tab-video

https://www.aamc.org/

 

[MyBelle]

First of all, I have not seen any evidence that she does, in fact, have a menstrual cycle. Jury is still out on that.

If he wants doctors, why not use the mainstream, highly respected, neurologists, as opposed to the fringe, out of the loop, iffy variety, with their own agendas?

Since you mention agendas, if you are going to continue to attack the integrity of Dr. Charles J. Prestigiacomo, chair of the neurological surgery department at Rutgers as well as other the other physicians who are involved in this case, it might be helpful if you either post some links to support your claims of fact or make it clear it is just your opinion.

JMO

 

[forthelost]

I'd have to see she is menstruating, and even if she was, the four year old who was kept "alive" after being declared brain-dead for twenty years also showed signs of puberty. And he essentially didn't have a brain when he died.

I'd still like to see the EEG replicated by an independant party. It's easy enough and isn't going to cause her any harm regardless of brain status.

 

[MyBelle]

Sorry about that, another point about living in a medical family/community. I read journals with necrotic feet on the cover while I'm eating, lol.

The things we talk about... I am not a medical professional, but since I'm married to one and all of my friends (even my girl friends-- one is a M.D. and one is a Pharm. D. My SIL is a Pharm. D, my sister and my other SIL are RNs etc..) are medical professionals, you had better believe I needed to learn fast and keep up. I can hang in any conversation... With a respectful amount of knowledge.

Anyway... Really, when you think of differential diagnosis... Uterus sloughing out through vagina is a reasonable consideration for her situation.

BBM It is not a differential diagnosis.

The blood, mucus, and pieces of tissue of the thickened endometrial lining are sloughed off through the cervix of the uterus and out of the vagina, in a process called menstruation.

Read more: Menstrual Cycle - Proliferative Phase, Secretory Phase, Menstruation - Changes, Lining, Cyclic, and Uterus - JRank Articles http://science.jrank.org/pages/4235/Menstrual-Cycle.html#ixzz3FiJvgsye

 

[MyBelle]

I'd have to see she is menstruating, and even if she was, the four year old who was kept "alive" after being declared brain-dead for twenty years also showed signs of puberty. And he essentially didn't have a brain when he died.

I'd still like to see the EEG replicated by an independant party. It's easy enough and isn't going to cause her any harm regardless of brain status.

The EEG was performed by an independent party. I doubt the Judge will demand to be shown "proof" that she is menstruating. The four-year-old, Jahi and others who have been kept alive are fairly compelling evidence that brain "death" is not the equivalent of clinical death by cessation of heart/respiration, which Americans have been lead to believe since 1968. With brain death, the body does not turn into a corpse.

JMO

 

[forthelost]

Why do you define death as the heart/lungs stopping? If one of those stops, you can restart them. Not always, but it is possible.

 

[MyBelle]

Why do you define death as the heart/lungs stopping? If one of those stops, you can restart them. Not always, but it is possible.

State statutes define death.

 

[K_Z]

I'm going to make a comment about Elena Labkovsky, because I think there is a perception that she is just being "ripped on" because she is not a physician.

Elena Labkovsky is clearly a very learned, educated psychologist. Brain dead people just don't need the services of psychologists, and hospitals don't use clinical psychologists to diagnose or determine brain death. The criticism (and some of it is blistering, including the direct and critical, but blisteringly polite comments from Dr. Paul Fisher) is that she is SOOO far outside of her training and expertise, that her opinions and skill are to be pretty much disregarded in the case of Jahi McMath. Reputable medical centers and University hospitals simply do not use psychologists, even clinical psychologists with PhDs, to perform EEG exams and interpretations of those exams, in the care of catastrophically brain injured patients, in the determination of brain death.

I have no doubt that EL could be certified by a court as an expert witness in the areas of psychological/mental health/ emotional care of adolescent patients with autism, Tourette's syndrome, ADHD, etc. This is her clinical and academic area of expertise. She herself has invited criticism by taking on this case which is far outside of her areas of expertise. She cannot be certified as a court expert in the area of determination of brain death-- it's absurd. Her EEG examination will not stand up to scrutiny and questioning under deposition, etc. It will be dismissed. She simply does not have the qualifications or experience for conducting EEG tests for determination of brain death.

For admission to the court, the test would have to be administered under standard conditions, by a certified technician. Her PhD does not compensate for, or dismiss, that set of standardized circumstances. And if Dolan et al is convinced of their data and evidence, they will persuade NW to consent to testing of Jahi's body under standard conditions, confirmed by court appointed impartial experts. EL's results have to be REPRODUCIBLE by impartial, qualified experts, or they are simply not valid.

She's probably a very nice lady. I have no idea how she got caught up in this mess, but this kind of publicity is not good for her, her career, her current and former patients, nor her current employer. She sold her reputation for "something" here in this case, and IMO, it was an exquisitely bad career decision on her part. IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

I'm going to make a comment about Elena Labkovsky, because I think there is a perception that she is just being "ripped on" because she is not a physician.

Elena Labkovsky is clearly a very learned, educated psychologist. Brain dead people just don't need the services of psychologists, and hospitals don't use clinical psychologists to diagnose or determine brain death. The criticism (and some of it is blistering, including the direct and critical, but blisteringly polite comments from Dr. Paul Fisher) is that she is SOOO far outside of her training and expertise, that her opinions and skill are to be pretty much disregarded in the case of Jahi McMath. Reputable medical centers and University hospitals simply do not use psychologists, even clinical psychologists with PhDs, to perform EEG exams and interpretations of those exams, in the care of catastrophically brain injured patients, in the determination of brain death.

I have no doubt that EL could be certified by a court as an expert witness in the areas of psychological/mental health/ emotional care of adolescent patients with autism, Tourette's syndrome, ADHD, etc. This is her clinical and academic area of expertise. She herself has invited criticism by taking on this case which is far outside of her areas of expertise. She cannot be certified as a court expert in the area of determination of brain death-- it's absurd. Her EEG examination will not stand up to scrutiny and questioning under deposition, etc. It will be dismissed. She simply does not have the qualifications or experience for conducting EEG tests for determination of brain death.

For admission to the court, the test would have to be administered under standard conditions, by a certified technician. Her PhD does not compensate for, or dismiss, that set of standardized circumstances. And if Dolan et al is convinced of their data and evidence, they will persuade NW to consent to testing of Jahi's body under standard conditions, confirmed by court appointed impartial experts. EL's results have to be REPRODUCIBLE by impartial, qualified experts, or they are simply not valid.

She's probably a very nice lady. I have no idea how she got caught up in this mess, but this kind of publicity is not good for her, her career, her current and former patients, nor her current employer. She sold her reputation for "something" here in this case, and IMO, it was an exquisitely bad career decision on her part. IMO.

BBM. Northwestern University must not share your opinion because she seems to be held in high regard as a researcher. Her CV certainly reflects numerous global presentations to other brain research professionals.

Labkovsky, E. (2013). Professional Training in EEG Brain Diagnostics. Event-Related Potentials as Biomarkers in the clinical Assessment of Brain and Mind Health. Workshop. Brain Mind & Memory Institute. 14-17 March 2013, Outrigger Twin Towns Resort, Gold Coast, Australia


http://www.brainbehavioroptimization.com/index.php?rmm=Resources

 

[forthelost]

State statutes define death.

How do you define death?

 

[La Louve]

BBM. Northwestern University must not share your opinion because she seems to be held in high regard as a researcher. Her CV certainly reflects numerous global presentations to other brain research professionals.

Labkovsky, E. (2013). Professional Training in EEG Brain Diagnostics. Event-Related Potentials as Biomarkers in the clinical Assessment of Brain and Mind Health. Workshop. Brain Mind & Memory Institute. 14-17 March 2013, Outrigger Twin Towns Resort, Gold Coast, Australia


http://www.brainbehavioroptimization.com/index.php?rmm=Resources

:waitasec:
I see nothing at the link you posted (which is Labkovsky's own website) that states that she has any expertise in determining brain death. Perhaps I am missing something, or perhaps you posted the wrong link? TIA

 

[SwampMama]

http://www.brainbehavioroptimization.com/index.php?rmm=Resources
From Labkovsky's past years of publications, it seems that "malingering" is a big topic with her as I saw it was part of the title and subject of many of her publications. Perhaps she can use that expertise and tell us Jahi is just "malingering".

Interestingly enough, it seems that Jahi's family not malingering. In fact they seem to be exaggerating how healthy and alive Jahi is for a variety of reason, including financial compensation and simply to attract attention or sympathy.

* Malingering - In medicine, malingering is fabricating or exaggerating the symptoms of mental or physical disorders for a variety of "secondary gain" motives, which may include financial compensation (often tied to fraud); avoiding school, work or military service; obtaining drugs; getting lighter criminal sentences; or simply to attract attention or sympathy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malingering

 

[txsvicki]

Does anyone have an opinion about the retired reknowned neurologist saying that Jahi could understand speech because that part of her brain is functioning? Also, he said that her brain stem and pons are damaged. Has anyone ever improved from brain stem damage enough to breath on their own, or would they stay in a vegetative state and on a respirator?

 

[Tugela]

BBM. Northwestern University must not share your opinion because she seems to be held in high regard as a researcher. Her CV certainly reflects numerous global presentations to other brain research professionals.

Labkovsky, E. (2013). Professional Training in EEG Brain Diagnostics. Event-Related Potentials as Biomarkers in the clinical Assessment of Brain and Mind Health. Workshop. Brain Mind & Memory Institute. 14-17 March 2013, Outrigger Twin Towns Resort, Gold Coast, Australia


http://www.brainbehavioroptimization.com/index.php?rmm=Resources

She is doing research in psychology though, not psychiatry, so she is not qualified to comment on what is essentially a question that should be answered by a psychiatrist.

I think part of the confusion people have is that many don't understand the difference between a psychologist (who studies human behavior) and a psychiatrist (who studies organic brain function). Since this case involves the state of the brain tissue of this patient, the question is definitely in the realm of psychiatrists and not psychologists.

 

[nrdsb4]

BBM. Northwestern University must not share your opinion because she seems to be held in high regard as a researcher. Her CV certainly reflects numerous global presentations to other brain research professionals.

Labkovsky, E. (2013). Professional Training in EEG Brain Diagnostics. Event-Related Potentials as Biomarkers in the clinical Assessment of Brain and Mind Health. Workshop. Brain Mind & Memory Institute. 14-17 March 2013, Outrigger Twin Towns Resort, Gold Coast, Australia


http://www.brainbehavioroptimization.com/index.php?rmm=Resources

What does that have to do with being qualified to diagnose brain death via EEG?

Besides the fact, a flat EEG is not even a criteria for brain death diagnosis anyway.

 

[Hiandmighty]

BBM It is not a differential diagnosis.

The blood, mucus, and pieces of tissue of the thickened endometrial lining are sloughed off through the cervix of the uterus and out of the vagina, in a process called menstruation.

Read more: Menstrual Cycle - Proliferative Phase, Secretory Phase, Menstruation - Changes, Lining, Cyclic, and Uterus - JRank Articles http://science.jrank.org/pages/4235/Menstrual-Cycle.html#ixzz3FiJvgsye

I didn't say her uterine LINING; I said the uterus.

 

[Hiandmighty]

I'm out for a while. I can't take the nit picking and the desperation of trying to be right that is going on in this thread.

Check y'all later!

 

[atthelake]

I'm out for a while. I can't take the nit picking and the desperation of trying to be right that is going on in this thread.

Check y'all later!

:stay: :grouphug:

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

 

[MyBelle]

:waitasec:
I see nothing at the link you posted (which is Labkovsky's own website) that states that she has any expertise in determining brain death. Perhaps I am missing something, or perhaps you posted the wrong link? TIA

I posted the correct link. At no time did I or Dolan suggest Dr. Labkovsky had expertise in brain death.