Jahi’s family wants her declared 'alive again’

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It seems when news slows down that posts begin to get personal toward other members, to discuss personal information about Jahi's siblings, and to bash family members. These are all prohibited in our rules. Please post responsibly!

Victim Friendly

Websleuths is a victim friendly forum...... Additionally, sleuthing family members or others that are not suspect is not allowed. Don't make random accusations or post personal information (even if it is public) like parking tickets, address, or first and last names of all their relatives and their neighbors. Also, never "bash" or attack them, or accuse them of involvement.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...iquette-amp-Information&p=8364858#post8364858
 
It's cool. I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to be rude, either. I do, however, believe that taking comments out of context - either intentionally or deliberately - is probably not very constructive or conducive to the discussion. It's one thing to ask someone what they mean by their opinions or comments, it's perhaps another thing entirely to bluntly call them out and force them to explain themselves because you did not understand what they meant or just chose to be offended without taking in several months worth of contextual posts.

Anyways, I do hope you are satisfied with what satisfies me. :) I'd be happy to discuss further in PM's.

Back to the discussion. I'm pleased you chimed in about the SoL and wrongful death aspects. I am getting the impression we are perhaps on the same page here, in that with the family maintaining all the along that Jahi never died at CHO and the length of time passing since the stint there complicates being able to prove CHO even caused it ex post facto. The mother paints herself into a tough corner with each IG, Twitter, or Go Fund Me post that says Jahi is improving. Making claims that the body is doing things that only a conscious, living, self-preserving human being could possibly do are all pretty damning pieces of testimonial evidence against a wrongful death case. IMHO. Let me know if we're on the same page here.

I wasn't addressing you with regards to being rude. You haven't been rude to me.

I don't think Jahi's family's statements with regards to her being alive would hurt a wrongful death lawsuit at all, believe it or not. Because their opinion as to her existence isn't relevant. Legally, Jahi is dead. A smart lawyer might even be able to use their stated beliefs to prove the loss they've suffered.

But will they do it? Are they willing to file such a suit despite the fact that they claim Jahi is alive?

Regardless, these are very hard suite to prove when the claim is medical negligence. And with Jahi's body on life support for so long...I don't know. Any evidence is already a year old.
 
They would probably have to find a different lawyer for a wrongful death suit I think. Dolan's credibility would be stretched too thin given all the statements he's made about Jahi being alive but someone else could spin it as "my colleague bravely represented the family in their struggle to keep Jahi alive and they failed to turn no stones but of course it was all futile because the truth is that Jahi died at CHO and couldn't be raised again, and what a devastating thing it is for any family to realize, and in fact some of them are still clinging on to a pointless hope, unable to cope with the tragedy of losing their beautiful vibrant young Jahi...".

I think Dolan realizes this because way back he made some statement saying that he wouldn't represent the family in a medical negligence suit.

Dolan stresses that he's representing the family for free, and will not handle the inevitable medical negligence lawsuit sure to come against Children's Hospital, where Jahi developed complications and suffered cardiac arrest after a three-part surgery to remove tonsils and clear tissue from her nose and throat on Dec. 9. Multiple doctors have declared Jahi brain dead, but the family has rejected that diagnosis, hoping she can live. She has been moved to an undisclosed location, where Dolan concedes the medical outlook is grim.

Dolan insists it would be unethical for him to handle any negligence or wrongful death case, which could expose the hospital to millions of dollars in damages, although he will continue to press a separate federal constitutional case he hopes might define family rights in such situations in the future -- if Jahi's family wants to pursue it. Dolan matter-of-factly states he's already made a "boatload of money," so he can afford to subsidize such causes.
The article in Mercury News has since been removed but I found this section quoted on several forums and here's what appears to be a copy of the whole article it used to be in.
http://genderidentitywatch.files.wo...ional-news-c2bb-the-free-press-mankato-mn.pdf

Also appears to be here http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-35550722.html but you have to create an account to read.
 
Who is paying for this? Thought she was declared dead, and now she's "undead".
 
what's bizarre to me is that the FAMILY/media made this a public circus, not the facility. CH is still working miracles & taking care of kids

almost an entire year . . .

IMHO it's the MO now -- my kid's suffering/killed, let's get the media (social or otherwise) involved <modsnip>
 
They can can bring a wrongful death suit even though her body is being maintained on life support in New Jersey. Because Jahi has been declared legally dead. But that would put them in a strange position. I see no opportunities for them to obtain funds through a lawsuit except malpractice or wrongful death. The cap in CA is 250k though for pain and suffering. There is no cap on on-going medical care though, which may be one of the strategic reasons for wanting Jahi declared alive- then the hospital could be sued for the on-going costs of keeping her body going. Perhaps that would enable in-home care.

They are running out of time and evidence when it comes to a wrongful death suit- 1 more year before the SOL is up I believe. And as articles have pointed out, with her body on life support for so long, it becomes harder for an autopsy to determine the COD. Plus, as I stated above, it would be odd for them to file such a suit when try re claiming their daughter is alive. But we shall see.





And either way, I continue to believe that this should've been handled differently by the hospital and that the law should consider this type of choice a private family matter such that if the family can find a facility willing to sustain life support- so be it.

Respectfully snipped for focus, and BBM.

Thank you, gitana1, for your response to my questions about any potential lawsuits that could be filed at this point. It is a big catch-22 for NW to go down the "wrongful death" arm of the algorithm, given the circumstances.

I'd like to respond to the bolded part of your comment above, that the law consider this set of circumstances "a private family matter such that if the family can find a facility willing to sustain life support- so be it."

As a health care professional, I have some unsettling feelings about how that would go, were it to be considered to be put into law. After I have mulled over the Judge's ruling in this case for the last year, I think his ruling was very thoughtful, and considered the best interests of the law, the mother, the CHO, the coroner/ ME, etc. The decision to turn the case over to the coroner, and issue a death certificate, while simultaneously allowing the family to remove her body (still on the ventilator) from CHO was the absolute right thing to do in THIS set of circumstances (given the marches outside the hospital, harassment of staff by the family and their supporters, imposition on other patients and families in the PICU and hospital, etc.)

I don't think it should be up to families to determine when their loved one is dead-- that is a medical diagnosis, rendered in compliance with standards of care, as well as laws. What is in dispute by the family in this case is not only the diagnosis of brain death and the futility of care, but the "when" of withdrawing support. I do believe that this case has been such an index case that it will prompt hospitals to be less compassionate, and less "lenient" in the "when" of removing organ support. I strongly believe that this case is prompting serious discussions about developing more restrictive policies to be put in place for how things are handled with patients and families, once a brain death diagnosis is made. Hospitals have watched this nightmare unfold, and never want it to happen in their facilities.

I cannot imagine what kind of law could be crafted to compel hospitals to provide vent/ ICU support of brain dead patients, while families that disagreed with the diagnosis searched high and low for a facility to take their loved ones. The diagnosis of death itself puts the brakes on reimbursement-- the hospital may absorb a few hours, or a few days of care for a brain dead patient, but then what? We cannot "not diagnose" brain death, just to keep the patient eligible for insurance $$ to pay for care-- that is wholly unsustainable. (And unethical, etc.)

I have no problem with a family desiring to take their brain dead loved one HOME on a ventilator, to be cared for until cardiac death. But I have serious reservations on a large number of levels, at mandating that facilities and their licensed professionals must provide futile (and hugely expensive) care "in perpetuity" until cardiac death occurs-- or until the family decides that they accept the diagnosis of death.

It's a private family decision, IMO, as long as it remains within the confines of the family, IMO, and doesn't involve mandates to providers and facilities. My suggestion would be that care "could" be continued (if the family objects to discontinuing the vent) for a period of perhaps 48 to 72 hours post brain death (which is the outside limit for as long as most organ recovery patients are maintained)-- AND that the brain dead patient be moved out of the ICU to a regular room, with basic ventilator and custodial care only. This would free up the valuable ICU resource for other patients, and make it more clear what the hospital's and professional's roles and responsibilities are toward the care of the brain dead patient. Social workers could assist the families in making arrangements to have the brain dead person moved from the hospital to home, or if a willing care facility can be located, to that facility.

Many, many families take care of ventilator dependent loved ones at home. This situation should be no different, absent the costs for care and caregivers. To be fair to everyone in society, a brain death determination should be handled the same for all. A family should not be entitled to have perpetual care mandated and paid for because they created a social and media circus, and were unwilling to accept the diagnosis-- when other families have to accept death and the withdrawal of support. Every family with a brain dead loved one is in denial and crisis in the first hours after the diagnosis. Yes, maybe it seems on the surface to be unkind or callous to put a time limit for withdrawal of support in place-- but it may become increasingly necessary on many levels for the facilities to do so. IMO.

I think it's immensely sad that the publicity and notoriety of what the family has done in this case is very likely going to prompt limits on options for compassion and time for families in the future.
 
Respectfully snipped for focus, and BBM.

Thank you, gitana1, for your response to my questions about any potential lawsuits that could be filed at this point. It is a big catch-22 for NW to go down the "wrongful death" arm of the algorithm, given the circumstances.

I'd like to respond to the bolded part of your comment above, that the law consider this set of circumstances "a private family matter such that if the family can find a facility willing to sustain life support- so be it."

As a health care professional, I have some unsettling feelings about how that would go, were it to be considered to be put into law. After I have mulled over the Judge's ruling in this case for the last year, I think his ruling was very thoughtful, and considered the best interests of the law, the mother, the CHO, the coroner/ ME, etc. The decision to turn the case over to the coroner, and issue a death certificate, while simultaneously allowing the family to remove her body (still on the ventilator) from CHO was the absolute right thing to do in THIS set of circumstances (given the marches outside the hospital, harassment of staff by the family and their supporters, imposition on other patients and families in the PICU and hospital, etc.)

I don't think it should be up to families to determine when their loved one is dead-- that is a medical diagnosis, rendered in compliance with standards of care, as well as laws. What is in dispute by the family in this case is not only the diagnosis of brain death and the futility of care, but the "when" of withdrawing support. I do believe that this case has been such an index case that it will prompt hospitals to be less compassionate, and less "lenient" in the "when" of removing organ support. I strongly believe that this case is prompting serious discussions about developing more restrictive policies to be put in place for how things are handled with patients and families, once a brain death diagnosis is made. Hospitals have watched this nightmare unfold, and never want it to happen in their facilities.

I cannot imagine what kind of law could be crafted to compel hospitals to provide vent/ ICU support of brain dead patients, while families that disagreed with the diagnosis searched high and low for a facility to take their loved ones. The diagnosis of death itself puts the brakes on reimbursement-- the hospital may absorb a few hours, or a few days of care for a brain dead patient, but then what? We cannot "not diagnose" brain death, just to keep the patient eligible for insurance $$ to pay for care-- that is wholly unsustainable. (And unethical, etc.)

I have no problem with a family desiring to take their brain dead loved one HOME on a ventilator, to be cared for until cardiac death. But I have serious reservations on a large number of levels, at mandating that facilities and their licensed professionals must provide futile (and hugely expensive) care "in perpetuity" until cardiac death occurs-- or until the family decides that they accept the diagnosis of death.

It's a private family decision, IMO, as long as it remains within the confines of the family, IMO, and doesn't involve mandates to providers and facilities. My suggestion would be that care "could" be continued (if the family objects to discontinuing the vent) for a period of perhaps 48 to 72 hours post brain death (which is the outside limit for as long as most organ recovery patients are maintained)-- AND that the brain dead patient be moved out of the ICU to a regular room, with basic ventilator and custodial care only. This would free up the valuable ICU resource for other patients, and make it more clear what the hospital's and professional's roles and responsibilities are toward the care of the brain dead patient. Social workers could assist the families in making arrangements to have the brain dead person moved from the hospital to home, or if a willing care facility can be located, to that facility.

Many, many families take care of ventilator dependent loved ones at home. This situation should be no different, absent the costs for care and caregivers. To be fair to everyone in society, a brain death determination should be handled the same for all. A family should not be entitled to have perpetual care mandated and paid for because they created a social and media circus, and were unwilling to accept the diagnosis-- when other families have to accept death and the withdrawal of support. Every family with a brain dead loved one is in denial and crisis in the first hours after the diagnosis. Yes, maybe it seems on the surface to be unkind or callous to put a time limit for withdrawal of support in place-- but it may become increasingly necessary on many levels for the facilities to do so. IMO.

I think it's immensely sad that the publicity and notoriety of what the family has done in this case is very likely going to prompt limits on options for compassion and time for families in the future.

I agree that the Judge did the right decision in turning this case over to a coroner so a death certificate could be issued.
I followed everything you said right up to your suggestion but was a little confused as to when and how a coroner would be involved if arrangements were made to transfer a brain dead patient from the hospital. If a death certificate isn't issued, I can see where someone on behalf of a patient could take advantage of the system and request (and maybe receive) social security, state or insurance disability benefits for as long as they could keep the heart beating.
 
I agree that the Judge did the right decision in turning this case over to a coroner so a death certificate could be issued.
I followed everything you said right up to your suggestion but was a little confused as to when and how a coroner would be involved if arrangements were made to transfer a brain dead patient from the hospital. If a death certificate isn't issued, I can see where someone on behalf of a patient could take advantage of the system and request (and maybe receive) social security, state or insurance disability benefits for as long as they could keep the heart beating.


BBM:

A coroner or medical examiner becomes involved when the medical diagnosis of brain death is determined, i.e. the attending physician(s) agree on a TOD (time of death). At this point, the paperwork for the death certificate is started @ the healthcare facility. AND depending upon the circumstances, the coroner/OCME is notified ('tho most probably coroner/OCME has already been involved in the case, peripherally).
Cases where organ recovery is going to happen are identified to the OCME prior to recovery (I'd say ALWAYS but there just might be some jurisdictions where this isn't done) and then the body is transported to the OCME unless the forensic pathologist decides to perform the post on site immediately after the recovery teams' work (not something done frequently!). In these "routine cases", the death certificate is completed with COD confirmed and MOD identified and the body is released to a responsible party, usually a funeral home representative.

This case was/is NOT routine, extensive accommodations have been made BUT the basics remain the same: a TOD has been recorded, a COD is present and my only "query" would be what is listed as the MOD (manner of death), perhaps listed as undetermined. In this case the body was turned over to the family. As death certificates have a section regarding disposal, THAT is most probably left open and why the stipulation of returning the body was added to the release. (IIRC, that was a included in the transaction).

The key point is that a death certificate DOES exist with a time of death and is in a data base (BTW: SS # and DOB both are included on the report)
here's a link to a good summary of the demographics: http://fcant.org/index.php?option=c...tid=41:Check here for answers first&Itemid=57

AND................death certificates CAN be amended to reflect new information, THAT detail is under the direction of the OCME.

all IMHO, reflects MO.
 
Respectfully snipped for focus, and BBM.

Thank you, gitana1, for your response to my questions about any potential lawsuits that could be filed at this point. It is a big catch-22 for NW to go down the "wrongful death" arm of the algorithm, given the circumstances.

I'd like to respond to the bolded part of your comment above, that the law consider this set of circumstances "a private family matter such that if the family can find a facility willing to sustain life support- so be it."

As a health care professional, I have some unsettling feelings about how that would go, were it to be considered to be put into law. After I have mulled over the Judge's ruling in this case for the last year, I think his ruling was very thoughtful, and considered the best interests of the law, the mother, the CHO, the coroner/ ME, etc. The decision to turn the case over to the coroner, and issue a death certificate, while simultaneously allowing the family to remove her body (still on the ventilator) from CHO was the absolute right thing to do in THIS set of circumstances (given the marches outside the hospital, harassment of staff by the family and their supporters, imposition on other patients and families in the PICU and hospital, etc.)

I don't think it should be up to families to determine when their loved one is dead-- that is a medical diagnosis, rendered in compliance with standards of care, as well as laws. What is in dispute by the family in this case is not only the diagnosis of brain death and the futility of care, but the "when" of withdrawing support. I do believe that this case has been such an index case that it will prompt hospitals to be less compassionate, and less "lenient" in the "when" of removing organ support. I strongly believe that this case is prompting serious discussions about developing more restrictive policies to be put in place for how things are handled with patients and families, once a brain death diagnosis is made. Hospitals have watched this nightmare unfold, and never want it to happen in their facilities.

I cannot imagine what kind of law could be crafted to compel hospitals to provide vent/ ICU support of brain dead patients, while families that disagreed with the diagnosis searched high and low for a facility to take their loved ones. The diagnosis of death itself puts the brakes on reimbursement-- the hospital may absorb a few hours, or a few days of care for a brain dead patient, but then what? We cannot "not diagnose" brain death, just to keep the patient eligible for insurance $$ to pay for care-- that is wholly unsustainable. (And unethical, etc.)

I have no problem with a family desiring to take their brain dead loved one HOME on a ventilator, to be cared for until cardiac death. But I have serious reservations on a large number of levels, at mandating that facilities and their licensed professionals must provide futile (and hugely expensive) care "in perpetuity" until cardiac death occurs-- or until the family decides that they accept the diagnosis of death.

It's a private family decision, IMO, as long as it remains within the confines of the family, IMO, and doesn't involve mandates to providers and facilities. My suggestion would be that care "could" be continued (if the family objects to discontinuing the vent) for a period of perhaps 48 to 72 hours post brain death (which is the outside limit for as long as most organ recovery patients are maintained)-- AND that the brain dead patient be moved out of the ICU to a regular room, with basic ventilator and custodial care only. This would free up the valuable ICU resource for other patients, and make it more clear what the hospital's and professional's roles and responsibilities are toward the care of the brain dead patient. Social workers could assist the families in making arrangements to have the brain dead person moved from the hospital to home, or if a willing care facility can be located, to that facility.

Many, many families take care of ventilator dependent loved ones at home. This situation should be no different, absent the costs for care and caregivers. To be fair to everyone in society, a brain death determination should be handled the same for all. A family should not be entitled to have perpetual care mandated and paid for because they created a social and media circus, and were unwilling to accept the diagnosis-- when other families have to accept death and the withdrawal of support. Every family with a brain dead loved one is in denial and crisis in the first hours after the diagnosis. Yes, maybe it seems on the surface to be unkind or callous to put a time limit for withdrawal of support in place-- but it may become increasingly necessary on many levels for the facilities to do so. IMO.

I think it's immensely sad that the publicity and notoriety of what the family has done in this case is very likely going to prompt limits on options for compassion and time for families in the future.

FWIW ITA with everything you said as a medical profesional.
 
In the same thread, can anyone find any MSM sources or press released that state the Schiavo foundation isn't helpin Jahi mcmath financially?
 
Dec 16, 2014

Why Jahi McMath's Mom is sure her daughter isn't brain dead

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/jahi-mcmaths-mom-daughter-brain-dead/story?id=27570953

It sound as if her husband is back in CA caring for the younger kids. Also sounds as if they are going to try again to have the death certificate revoked. (And includes the TMI comment that Jahi has had two menstrual cycles....)

The next step will be getting Jahi's California death certificate reversed so she can move back home and get disability benefits in California, Dolan said. Experts have already testified on her behalf, he said.

For Christmas, Winkfield won't be able to be with her husband or other children because she needs to stay where she is and can't afford to fly them across the country. But she said she'll still cook and buy Jahi presents like a new night gown, lip gloss and some socks.

"I talk to her like I would talk to anybody," Winkfield said, adding that Jahi can now respond by giving a thumbs up.
 
They say they want to get the death certificate reversed, but so far no action that we know of toward that point.
 
Responding to comment - Maybe TSF will go bankrupt in helping Jahi (paraphrased)
My earlier post: What expenses re Jahi are being paid by TSF? Per TSF or MSM link, pls?


I understand TSF is giving Jahi & fam 'financial backing' and is 'working' Jahi's family.
$ amounts & purposes unknown to me.

Has TSF bn paying for all
--- Jahi's Mom's legal expenses and related costs?
---Jahi's 'medical' exp in being kept in NJ home or whereever she is?
---Jahi's mom's exp in being closeby in NJ?
---stepdad and Jahi's siblings day-to-day, month-to-month expenses (if he is unemployed).

If so, I can see that adding up. Sorry my post was not clearer.
 
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