James Kolar's New Book Will Blow the Lid off the JonBenet Ramsey Investigation

[questfortrue]

It wasn't PW. It was Susan Stine. The new people at the party were house guests of the Whites. IIRC, it was a brother-in-law, without the sister, and another sister's boyfriend, without that sister either. Both were from California. That's always seemed very strange to me. The men go visit the in-laws for Christmas, but leave the wife & girlfriend who are the relatives, behind in California?

I don't know who did what to JB at that party, but feel pretty sure something did happen. She told JM she didn't feel pretty, and wasn't that the night PR called Dr B several times after hours? I could be wrong about the Dr calls.

What reason could SS have for refusing to open the door for BPD? She talked to them on the intercom. Now BPD really screwed up because they should have insisted on coming in and looking around. If it was a kid's prank, or FW tying to check on the Rx for his mother rolleyes then why not open the door, let them see it's a party and everything is fine, maybe invite them in for a bite to eat? IMO, there was something to hide. SS didn't want them to come face to face with the person that made the call IMO.

Sidenote: Dr. B had been called on the 17th.

I’ve always had trouble thinking of a molestation scene at a party when there were likely so many new toys to play with. OK, blame it on my sheltered upbringing. Obviously, there’s good reason to believe a molestation scenario on the night of the 23rd; but there’s also reason to look at something else. PR was strung really tight this holiday season, putting together a party before their trips, getting ready for Christmas. If JB had had a toileting accident, at a party that PR wanted to be perfect, it may be that PR drug her into the bathroom and spanked her hard, telling her that she was an ugly girl when she had an accident. Consider that as a beauty pageant queen JB would have been told frequently how pretty she was. JB knew being pretty was important to her mother and father.

JB’s screams in the bathroom might have caused another child enough concern to call 911. FW’s account of misdialing when trying to obtain a prescription for his mother does sound contrived, but he might have covered for a child (his daughter DW?) who called 911. And if it’s a molestation scene, surely if the adults at the party were called upon they could have broken it up without calling the police in. That’s what kids usually do is go get their parents to break up a scene with other kids.

JR may have been in another room, trying to “normalize” the atmosphere. PR’s absence from responding to the door might have been because she was reassembling herself and JB after JB had the accident. So SS took over. ITA though, most likely there was something they wished to conceal, which was why SS did not allow the police in. (But then also, sarcasm alert: police do take away from a party atmosphere) moo

 

[ktgirl]

I just finished reading Kolar's book and as of now, am convinced of the BR did it theory.

(If anyone is still looking for a copy of the book, I'm selling mine. I posted about it on the WS-Bay forum: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220205"]James Kolar's "Foreign Faction: Who Really Killed JonBenet" book for sale - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame])

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

It could have happened, but if there were a group not in the regular circle, and they assaulted her, why wouldn't she tell on them? Even if she'd been trained to that behavior she was obviously upset by it.

Mrs. White answered the door when police arrived, (if I'm recalling correctly) and assured them everything was ok. Was Mrs White covering for someone, outside the normal circle friends? Seems unlikely to me. If Mrs. White was covering for someone it's more likely someone from the inner circle of friends?

One reason Mrs. White would have said everything was ok, is because everything was ok. It's one possibility.

On the twenty third at the gingerbread house party, Susan Stine, Pasty's bulldog, was the one who answered the "door" after the 911 call. She spoke to LE through the intercom first and then let them in.

The Stines, weren't called by Pasty to come over when Pasty found JonBenet was missing , but the Fernies , the Whites, their pastor, and Dr. Beauf,JonBenet's pedi were. I've always wondered about the relationship between the Ramseys and the Stines.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Welcome. I'm going to give you one possible answer to the question in bold type. It's going to be sarcastic, for emphasis. The sarcasm is not directed at you.

- If JR and PR were "accessories after the fact" why then would PR be wearing the same clothes as she was the night before? Especially, as it has been noted that PR took special notice of her appearance and would never be known to wear the same clothes two days in a row according to friends. If PR hadn't been awake during the murder, why then would she still be in the same clothes?


Because PR is a moron. She's been up all night, killing and staging, yet she can't figure out that wearing the same clothes is a huge tip off that she's been up all night killing and staging. She wears the same clothes because she's too dumb to realize she should change.

Or maybe she ran out of time. It would take what 2 to 3 hours to change clothes? Oh, wait, no it would take more like 5-10 minutes for a normal person to change clothes, if that long. But she's former miss WV and she's competed in pageants were she had to change from gown to swimsuit to whatever was worn for the talent portion of the contest, and had to make these changes in minutes. Well maybe she's slowed down in her old age.

Or maybe she just didn't have time because the phone call to 911 had to be made precisely at 5:52 am. Oh, wait, it didn't have to be made at 5:52. If she's calling 911 (on herself) then she has control of when the call is placed. If she needs 5 more minutes to change clothes, then she can just delay the call 5 minutes.

Well maybe she didn't have anything else to wear. After all the Ramseys were poor, and she often had to wear the same clothes several days in a row until the Goodwill store had something in her size. Oh, wait, that's not right either. The Rs were millionaires and PR had closets full of designer clothes.

Sarcasm off.

It's been noted that her makeup was fresh when she answered the door to let in the police. If she had time to apply/freshen makeup, why not take an extra few minutes and change clothes? If she's trying not to appear as if she's been up all night killing and staging, then a change of clothes compliments the freshened makeup.

This is one of those things that can be read either way. My take is that if she'd been involved she'd certainly have changed clothes, she had the clothes, the time, and would need to minimize suspicion towards herself.

Pasty might of thought that her clothes; the same from the night before wouldn't matter. I'd loved to of been a fly on the wall when she was told about the fibers on and around JonBenet and they needed her red sweater.

 

[BOESP]

It could have happened, but if there were a group not in the regular circle, and they assaulted her, why wouldn't she tell on them? Even if she'd been trained to that behavior she was obviously upset by it.

Mrs. White answered the door when police arrived, (if I'm recalling correctly) and assured them everything was ok. Was Mrs White covering for someone, outside the normal circle friends? Seems unlikely to me. If Mrs. White was covering for someone it's more likely someone from the inner circle of friends?

One reason Mrs. White would have said everything was ok, is because everything was ok. It's one possibility.

It was Susan Stine who met the officer at the front door and told them everything was fine.

 

[Nom de plume]

- If JR and PR were "accessories after the fact" why then would PR be wearing the same clothes as she was the night before? Especially, as it has been noted that PR took special notice of her appearance and would never be known to wear the same clothes two days in a row according to friends. If PR hadn't been awake during the murder, why then would she still be in the same clothes?

Snipped for relevance.

IMO, the reason she was wearing the same clothes is so she could throw herself across JB's body after she was "found" and have, what she thought, was a good excuse for her fibers being all over JB.

 

[UKGuy]

Snipped for relevance.

IMO, the reason she was wearing the same clothes is so she could throw herself across JB's body after she was "found" and have, what she thought, was a good excuse for her fibers being all over JB.

Nom de plume,
Really? What planning, so how come she missed the pineapple snack? That is we can do fibers but not pineapple?

Then there is: how come PR would know she would have the opportunity to fling herself onto JonBenet, she may have been arrested at 10:00am?

So the reason she wore the same clothes cannot be as declared, it might be as simple as she never undressed that night.

If there is a forensic motive then it will have been shared with JR since he undressed that night. That is more relevant than PR weaing the same clothes.


.
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[otg]

(snipped)

I just finished reading Kolar's book and as of now, am convinced of the BR did it theory.

Congratulations, ktgirl. As unpleasant as it is to think, when you come to that realization, everything else makes sense (moo).

 

[questfortrue]

Nom de plume,
Really? What planning, so how come she missed the pineapple snack? That is we can do fibers but not pineapple?

Then there is: how come PR would know she would have the opportunity to fling herself onto JonBenet, she may have been arrested at 10:00am?

So the reason she wore the same clothes cannot be as declared, it might be as simple as she never undressed that night.

If there is a forensic motive then it will have been shared with JR since he undressed that night. That is more relevant than PR weaing the same clothes.
.
.

Actually, it’s possible that PR had been up and had no intentionality about flinging herself on JB to leave fibers. That would seem most likely I agree. But then again, maybe she did think of it and didn’t share her thoughts with JR. One can’t underestimate the intensity of their staging: Pink pajama bottoms missing, video batteries dead, no still shots of Christmas, no phone records, a cell phone that had been lost, a flashlight wiped down both inside and out, a missing package of size 12-14 Bloomies, a RN which had no fingerprints except of one of the detectives. While their staging and dispersal of evidence wasn’t perfect (pineapple, eg.), it was good enough that one of the GJ said they couldn’t tell who of the two did what.

As for JR, I figured he had to change ‘cuz there could have been something on his clothing and he wasn’t taking any chances. JMHO.

 

[Chrishope]

It wasn't PW. It was Susan Stine. The new people at the party were house guests of the Whites. IIRC, it was a brother-in-law, without the sister, and another sister's boyfriend, without that sister either. Both were from California. That's always seemed very strange to me. The men go visit the in-laws for Christmas, but leave the wife & girlfriend who are the relatives, behind in California?

I don't know who did what to JB at that party, but feel pretty sure something did happen. She told JM she didn't feel pretty, and wasn't that the night PR called Dr B several times after hours? I could be wrong about the Dr calls.

What reason could SS have for refusing to open the door for BPD? She talked to them on the intercom. Now BPD really screwed up because they should have insisted on coming in and looking around. If it was a kid's prank, or FW tying to check on the Rx for his mother rolleyes then why not open the door, let them see it's a party and everything is fine, maybe invite them in for a bite to eat? IMO, there was something to hide. SS didn't want them to come face to face with the person that made the call IMO.

Good question. So, once again, details can be read in at least two ways. She didn't open the door because JB had been molested. She told police everything was ok because everything was ok. Even if there was something to hide we don't know what, or who did it. Speculating on what happened at the party on the 23rd won't get us very far.

 

[Chrishope]

Snipped for relevance.

IMO, the reason she was wearing the same clothes is so she could throw herself across JB's body after she was "found" and have, what she thought, was a good excuse for her fibers being all over JB.

I suspect that she didn't really know that much about fiber evidence.

 

[Chrishope]

Nom de plume,
Really? What planning, so how come she missed the pineapple snack? That is we can do fibers but not pineapple?

I don't think she planned to get her fibers on the body. She might have missed the pineapple because she wasn't involved. Or he/she/they may never have considered that digestion time could be estimated from the location of the food within the digestive system.

Then there is: how come PR would know she would have the opportunity to fling herself onto JonBenet, she may have been arrested at 10:00am?

Good point. She might have been arrested at 7am had the police brought dogs to the scene.

So the reason she wore the same clothes cannot be as declared, it might be as simple as she never undressed that night.

That's right. One can say it can't be declared, or one can say it offers multiple explanations. 6 of one half dozen of the other.

It might very well be as simple as she never undressed that night. It's a sensible reason. It might also be as simple as she wasn't involved in any of the doings that night.

If there is a forensic motive then it will have been shared with JR since he undressed that night. That is more relevant than PR weaing the same clothes.

Well, if she is a co-conspirator active in the killing and/or molestation, she has the same forensic problem as JR and needs to take a shower and put her clothes in the washer. If she's a co-conspirator in the cover up only, she may still have a need to "get clean" depending on what she touched.

In any case she arouses suspicion by wearing the same clothes. Oversight? Non-involvement? Using her extensive knowledge of fiber evidence she hoped for a chance to cross contaminate the body, and as luck would have it an opportunity presented itself ?


I agree that her wearing the same clothes isn't proof one way or the other, but changing clothes after a murder is pretty basic. Certainly there was no time constraint. Certainly she aroused suspicion by wearing the same clothes. If she's involved yet failed to change, that's a mystery in itself.

 

[Chrishope]

Thanks for the corrections re: PW/SS. I don't know why I had PW in mind.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think she planned to get her fibers on the body. She might have missed the pineapple because she wasn't involved. Or he/she/they may never have considered that digestion time could be estimated from the location of the food within the digestive system.

Good point. She might have been arrested at 7am had the police brought dogs to the scene.

That's right. One can say it can't be declared, or one can say it offers multiple explanations. 6 of one half dozen of the other.

It might very well be as simple as she never undressed that night. It's a sensible reason. It might also be as simple as she wasn't involved in any of the doings that night.

Well, if she is a co-conspirator active in the killing and/or molestation, she has the same forensic problem as JR and needs to take a shower and put her clothes in the washer. If she's a co-conspirator in the cover up only, she may still have a need to "get clean" depending on what she touched.

In any case she arouses suspicion by wearing the same clothes. Oversight? Non-involvement? Using her extensive knowledge of fiber evidence she hoped for a chance to cross contaminate the body, and as luck would have it an opportunity presented itself ?


I agree that her wearing the same clothes isn't proof one way or the other, but changing clothes after a murder is pretty basic. Certainly there was no time constraint. Certainly she aroused suspicion by wearing the same clothes. If she's involved yet failed to change, that's a mystery in itself.

Chrishope,
Since it appears to be a matter of interpretation here is mine: From memory there was only one shower working?

JR for whatever reason wanted his daily schedule to repeat. So he prioritised himself over PR. This was done for forensic reasons, since JR could have stated he took a shower when he never. I suspect he was concerned about being arrested and having his person and clothing analysed?

Either PR ran out of time, or she thought no shower why bother changing, Ok I'll do my makeup?

That is, JR's behaviour is consistent with the R's version of events, but PR's is not, since she does not redress.

.

 

[KoldKase]

As they say, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Some thoughts:

It's likely the Ramseys expected either LE or one of the kidnapping party guests to find the body in the cellar room very quickly. That no one did until hours later when JR made a beeline for it was a fluke, IMO, no matter if you believe JR knew it was there or not.

A BPD officer tried to open the door after unlatching it at the top, but it was "stuck" and he didn't force it because...it was latched. Fleet White opened the door at one point, but couldn't find the light switch and didn't see anything in the dark after briefly looking in. They both latched the door again, I believe.

But Burke Ramsey would have to have stood on a chair to secure the wooden "latch" at the top of the cellar door once the body was in there.

Here is the crime scene photo taken early that morning, when the body was still behind the door: notice the block turned to secure the door at the top.

Perhaps JR took a shower because he sweated a lot that long and terrifying night. Speculation, of course, but some people do sweat under stress, and if JR was busy helping with the horrors of what took place, I'd say that's extreme stress, even for someone who doesn't show it on the outside.

Perhaps Patsy's jacket was a shedder and it was on JB's clothing from the party. Perhaps the jacket shed on Patsy's top under the jacket and that's what she had on all night. What's she going to do: change into something comfortable to finish her child's life and cover it all up? The jacket fibers then transferred to the ligature cord and got tied into the knots and also stuck to the duct tape from either of those sources.

When the time came to call 911, maybe she just grabbed her jacket because that's what went with the rest of her outfit. I've certainly worn clothing more than one day in a row for various reasons. It's not that strange, IMO. Certainly not if she was indeed dressed in the rest of the outfit and wasn't thinking of much more than her baby was dead and she and her family were up to their necks in a tragedy which was only going to get worse if she didn't keep it together. In her mind, of course.

Still, if the fibers were already on JB's clothing, anyone could have been responsible for tying those knots and putting that duct tape on JB's mouth.

Perhaps and if and maybe.... And there's the rub...so to speak: transference.

But Patsy wrote the note, of that I have no doubt.

JB's blood was on her own pillowcase on her bed in her bedroom.

Even if the head blow happened in the kitchen or in a first floor area, how did the body get into the basement to be strangled?

The same way someone taller than Burke moved that block of wood to secure the cellar door--which is why LE didn't find the body immediately: kidnappers don't lock themselves into a room from the other side of the door.

An adult carried the child down at least one and possibly two flights of stairs, IMO.

This is why I don't believe Burke committed the strangulation. Whatever terrible choices the adults in the home were making that night, I truly don't believe either would have taken Burke with the body into the basement to watch or participate in the strangulation and staging in the cellar room. One or both adults did those deeds, IMO.

And then an adult turned the block to secure the door.

I'm only speculating, of course, based on the evidence, but something was happening in JB's room that night. She bled onto her pillow, on her bed. Her pj bottoms disappeared that night, but the top was still on the bed in the crime scene photos. Drawers were hanging open, a cabinet in the laundry area was open with a bag of diapers hanging out, the same place the maid hid Burke's Swiss knife. Burke's knife ended up in the basement either on a counter or in the cellar room near the body--I've heard both, and there have been claims he owned 2 Swiss knives, but this is another area we never have time to question Kolar about...sigh.

What if JB in fact was sexually assaulted within the three nights after the sheets had been changed, in her own bed? Then the violent strike to her head happened on Dec. 25th/26th. Later her body was carried down to the basement, laid face down by the paint tray to begin the "cover up" the chronic vaginal injuries, and the paintbrush then incorporated into the ligature for one or more demented reasons?

Well, who knows? We've played this murder scene a thousand ways in 17 years, but without a confession, one guess is as good as another because the 3 people in that house are all over it for natural reasons, as well.

But it was Patsy's pen and paper, her handwriting and linguistics--her ransom note; it was Patsy's paint tray and paint brush; it was Patsy's clothing fibers tied into the ligature knots and on the duct tape; her and Burke's fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple and tea glass; and if Patsy was talking about it, she was lying--to LE and to everyone else.

:moo:

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

One cannot lie about what one did when one was dissociated.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

I just finished reading Kolar's book and as of now, am convinced of the BR did it theory.

Likewise, ST's book is convincing, but with a different theory.

If BDI, I cannot fathom any reason why one or both parents needed to complete the kill - or stage the crime scene.

The standard arguments are:

Kill your 6 year old daughter, rather than call an ambulance, to protect your 9 year old son. Really?

Wipe down the batteries in the flashlight. Why would a Ramsey do this? Obviously the batteries were installed by a Ramsey which would leave prints. And leave it out in plain sight - after wiping it clean?

Apply a stick and cord, similar to a garrote, and choke her out - and insert a broken stick inside her before she dies? To his/her/their child? Cause acute trauma to hide prior vaginal abuse which provides even more evidence for investigators? Makes no sense to me.

Write a ransom note filled with insider information, leave the body in the house and disobey every instruction in the note.

It has been reported that BR's usual wake time was 5:30 to 6:00 am. At 10 pm, after a busy Christmas day, BR wants to drink tea and play doctor? He digitally assaults her, jabs her repeatedly with a piece of train track, draws pictures on her hand and somehow hits her with enough force to split her skull from front to back. What stamina for a frail kid!

IMO, Kolar bases his theory on (a) research that kids are capable of molesting and killing for gratification, (b) BR's prior apparent scat fantasies and (c) the fact that BR had access to pieces of train track. Its just not enough for me.

To clarify a prior statement posted earlier in this thread, BR did give accounts of Christmas night - at least twice in LE sponsored interviews and once to the grand jury.

 

[midwest mama]

Chrishope,
Since it appears to be a matter of interpretation here is mine: From memory there was only one shower working?

JR for whatever reason wanted his daily schedule to repeat. So he prioritised himself over PR. This was done for forensic reasons, since JR could have stated he took a shower when he never. I suspect he was concerned about being arrested and having his person and clothing analysed?

Either PR ran out of time, or she thought no shower why bother changing, Ok I'll do my makeup?

That is, JR's behaviour is consistent with the R's version of events, but PR's is not, since she does not redress.

.

1st BBM: Not surprising that JR would have figured he could have the shower first, is it?? He was somewhat OCD and a neatnik, according to reports, so if he had anything on him related to the crime, he probably would have wanted to rid himself of it for more reasons than to make sure there was no forensic evidence left behind. Though, trying to pass scrutiny at the police station sure would have been reason enough, as well.

2nd BBM: PR's version of the events is that she was in bed and awakened to hear John in his shower. She got up, went into her bathroom and redressed in the clothing she had worn to the party, as well as did her makeup and hair, before starting out for the dreaded day that unfolded. JR, remember, said when he went to bed, Patsy was already there. He took a Melatonin, read for a while, then turned in for the night, anticipating an early up in order to make their flight out for Minnesota and then on to Michigan.

 

[BOESP]

It doesn't seem odd to me for a man to get up and shower first thing in the morning. Based on my anecdotal study, that would be normal behavior.

I have more trouble with Patsy's time line of what all she said she did between the time she got up (5:35 or a little after) and when the 911 call was made (5:52). She also stated she usually got up at midnight to see that JonBenet "pottied" but she failed to do so Christmas night.

 

[midwest mama]

Selected from an earlier post by KoldKase:

"But Burke Ramsey would have to have stood on a chair to secure the wooden "latch" at the top of the cellar door once the body was in there."

This sentence clobbered me. JR made an issue of a chair having to be moved from in front of the door of the train room. And there were a couple of chairs shown in photographs.

Is it possible Burke COULD have stood on a chair to unlatch and relatch that door, and JR included it in his statements to remove any suspicion from it having been used by Burke with JR thinking to move it away from the wine cellar door to obscure it's use?