James Kolar's New Book Will Blow the Lid off the JonBenet Ramsey Investigation

[ILikeToBendPages]

Somewhere in the recesses of my memory I recall Patsy saying that the size 12 panties had been wrapped for the niece and put in the basement with gifts for other family members because Patsy had forgotten to mail the gift and would later mail them. She stated this when she claimed she had to peep into some of those packages to pick out which one was Burke's birthday gift. She went on and on about the panties being wrapped in FAO Schwartz paper (or whatever that New York department store is).

Does anyone else remember this episode?

Yes, Pasty said they were for her niece Jenny that she'd bought on one of her New York trips. I don't know if it was the one that JonBenet had a $125.00 lobster dinner. If it was, then why wouldn't Pasty buy JonBenet her own pack? JonBenet already had Bloomies; it's not anything special to her,so why would JonBenet want larger panties? And a pack of panties for a Christmas gift when you have millions? And isn't giving a twelve year old panties kinda weird?

I also remember Pasty saying she peeked, I'm just wondering the difference between a Legos? and a small pack of panties. Wouldn't you know what size package it would be? then go from there? It looked like many of the presents were in wrapped in the same , and I was wondering if that was a year round wrapping paper or just for Christmas? and why would you wrap Burke's January birthday in Christmas wrap? looks like Pasty had plenty of crafts supplies.

 

[questfortrue]

Somewhere in the recesses of my memory I recall Patsy saying that the size 12 panties had been wrapped for the niece and put in the basement with gifts for other family members because Patsy had forgotten to mail the gift and would later mail them. She stated this when she claimed she had to peep into some of those packages to pick out which one was Burke's birthday gift. She went on and on about the panties being wrapped in FAO Schwartz paper (or whatever that New York department store is).

Does anyone else remember this episode?

Yes, that's what I recall as well.

 

[questfortrue]

Likewise, ST's book is convincing, but with a different theory.

If BDI, I cannot fathom any reason why one or both parents needed to complete the kill - or stage the crime scene.

The standard arguments are:

Kill your 6 year old daughter, rather than call an ambulance, to protect your 9 year old son. Really?

Wipe down the batteries in the flashlight. Why would a Ramsey do this? Obviously the batteries were installed by a Ramsey which would leave prints. And leave it out in plain sight - after wiping it clean?

Apply a stick and cord, similar to a garrote, and choke her out - and insert a broken stick inside her before she dies? To his/her/their child? Cause acute trauma to hide prior vaginal abuse which provides even more evidence for investigators? Makes no sense to me.

Write a ransom note filled with insider information, leave the body in the house and disobey every instruction in the note.

It has been reported that BR's usual wake time was 5:30 to 6:00 am. At 10 pm, after a busy Christmas day, BR wants to drink tea and play doctor? He digitally assaults her, jabs her repeatedly with a piece of train track, draws pictures on her hand and somehow hits her with enough force to split her skull from front to back. What stamina for a frail kid!

IMO, Kolar bases his theory on (a) research that kids are capable of molesting and killing for gratification, (b) BR's prior apparent scat fantasies and (c) the fact that BR had access to pieces of train track. Its just not enough for me.

To clarify a prior statement posted earlier in this thread, BR did give accounts of Christmas night - at least twice in LE sponsored interviews and once to the grand jury.

Following the BDI train of thought the parents act in the staging to shelter BR from the consequences of his action, and because it would be way too humiliating to them as a family, especially the sex abuse. One of the ws posters Ozazure gave an excellent response that hiding this, putting on the good face for their family was what they were accustomed to doing. And the family had loose boundaries. I believe she is right on this,

What would they have done if BR had sadistically attacked his sister, causing vaginal trauma and perhaps, in a scuffle, caused her to break an arm? Or what if he had thrown one of his mother’s weights and hit her collar bone and broken it? Would they simply have called Dr. B for some pain medicine and perhaps he could have put a splint on her arm, in order to avoid the medical establishment? Would they have protected BR with more lies, or would they have taken her in to the emergency ward, to have her treated and the arm set professionally? If you follow the train of deception that the parents practice for BR, they would have just called Dr. B vs. risking exposure as a family allowing sex abuse to occur in the family. It’s another twist if it wasn’t BR and all this staging was to shelter one/both of them.

So Kolar also mentions that the parents had absolutely no motive to harm JB. This is, imo, where one could part ways with BDI. JB’s bedwetting and toileting accidents, and this according to BR, was a big problem in the family. JR denied this on TV that it may have only happened a few times. Reality check, it happened a lot. And, according to the housekeeper, JR knew this because when she showed up one morning JR said to her: Get those sheets cleaned up. JB had another bedwetting accident.

Motive according to ST: A mom who just broke down because of one more accident. Or, if you listen to the explanation of forensic psychologists/psychiatrists another reason was because there were a complex of issues (including bedwetting) and dysfunction resulting from incest perpetrated by an adult father (these forensic shrinks don’t believe it was the brother. But of course with incest, without a witness, there’s no definitive evidence for a jury). And then lastly, reason for her death, an accident involving JR and JB, during some kind of session. moo

I’m not discounting Kolar’s theory, just bringing up I don’t think it is totally conclusive. I think it still could be BR who struck the blow. Or PR or JR. Interestingly, JR is not as reactive to murder charges as he is to talk of incest. Why is that? If you followed the interview with his attorney LW present, JR denies with great bluster that the fiber in JB’s panties was from a shirt he owned. But then LW picks up on this question and he filibusters the questioning attorney, as though he were Strom Thurmond filibustering the Civil Rights Act.

JMHO

 

[Venom]

Yes, Pasty said they were for her niece Jenny that she'd bought on one of her New York trips. I don't know if it was the one that JonBenet had a $125.00 lobster dinner. If it was, then why wouldn't Pasty buy JonBenet her own pack? JonBenet already had Bloomies; it's not anything special to her,so why would JonBenet want larger panties? And a pack of panties for a Christmas gift when you have millions? And isn't giving a twelve year old panties kinda weird?

I also remember Pasty saying she peeked, I'm just wondering the difference between a Legos? and a small pack of panties. Wouldn't you know what size package it would be? then go from there? It looked like many of the presents were in wrapped in the same , and I was wondering if that was a year round wrapping paper or just for Christmas? and why would you wrap Burke's January birthday in Christmas wrap? looks like Pasty had plenty of crafts supplies.

Too me you'd be able to tell a pack of wrapped panties from a box of wrapped legos. The panties would be soft, unless they were put in a gift box. I also put those to and from stickers on to eliminate gift mix ups. I was wondering about wrapping a January b-day gift in X-mas paper.
Where are these pictures at?

 

[BOESP]

Glad you all remembered. I haven't come to a logical conclusion on why the story suddenly changed with the size 12s being in JonBenet's bedroom drawer. I know Patsy said JonBenet pitched a fit for them so she told JonBenet to go ahead and open them but, frankly, I don't know why a six-year-old would throw a fit for panties that were so big they wouldn't stay up. It is a strange story.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
So why no picture of JonBenet at the White's party, whats to hide?

Why did Patsy not relate she adjusted JonBenet's hair as she placed her into bed?

Although the ponytails might have nothing to do with the crime, they might be able to inform us regarding the sequence of events?

.

There ARE photos of JB at the White's party. Police have had them for years. That is how they proved definitively that JB was wearing the WHITE shirt that day to the party. These photos have not been made public.
Patsy had previously mentioned that she routinely pulled JB's hair into a ponytail for bed. Just because she didn't mention doing it specifically that night doesn't mean she didn't do it.

 

[DeeDee249]

So, would Patsy have been able to put JB's hair into that lower ponytail with her asleep, as the R's stated she was when carried up and put into bed? In one account Patsy gave she said the reason she dressed JB the way she did that night was because of her being carried up asleep and she was "konked out". I suppose it's possible to do the lower ponytail with JB asleep, but it seems like fussing with her hair might have awakened her. Maybe it did, and that's when things started?

I don't believe JB was asleep, but that notwithstanding, yes- she could have pulled her hair back into a ponytail while she was asleep. I used to do it myself with my own daughter's long hair. However, I do not think she would have tried to UN-do the top ponytail. I'd have done the same thing- just leave the top ponytail in place and pull the rest of the loose, long hair into a ponytail. I think this is what actually happened and there is nothing mysterious or sinister about those two asymmetrical ponytails. SOME of the things that occurred after they returned home are simply mundane, ordinary activities that would have occurred anyway, and had nothing to do with the crime. This included leaving JB in the white shirt she had been wearing (which was soft and like a sweatshirt and would have been OK for sleeping) and pulling on the longjohns (because Patsy said she couldn't find the pink pajama bottoms) and pulling her hair back in a ponytail. All this could have been done on a sleeping, as well as a sleepy but awake, JB.

 

[DeeDee249]

Too me you'd be able to tell a pack of wrapped panties from a box of wrapped legos. The panties would be soft, unless they were put in a gift box. I also put those to and from stickers on to eliminate gift mix ups. I was wondering about wrapping a January b-day gift in X-mas paper.
Where are these pictures at?

The way I see it is that the panties meant for Jenny were put in a gift box with other items also meant for Jenny. Patsy wrapped the box, and it was stored along with other wrapped gifts. Patsy intended to mail them out after they returned. I think this was accurate. One thing about lies- BIG lies. They work best when mixed in with things that are true. The Rs did just that. Some of the things they said WERE true. Like the gifts Patsy intended to mail after she got back. What she did NOT admit, for obvious reasons, is that she had to open the packages to see which box had the panties in them. There was likely more than one box for Jenny or Jenny's family.

 

[BOESP]

The way I see it is that the panties meant for Jenny were put in a gift box with other items also meant for Jenny. Patsy wrapped the box, and it was stored along with other wrapped gifts. Patsy intended to mail them out after they returned. I think this was accurate. One thing about lies- BIG lies. They work best when mixed in with things that are true. The Rs did just that. Some of the things they said WERE true. Like the gifts Patsy intended to mail after she got back. What she did NOT admit, for obvious reasons, is that she had to open the packages to see which box had the panties in them. There was likely more than one box for Jenny or Jenny's family.

I'm following you on the above. But how did the story get switched to the size 12s being in JonBenet's drawer? I haven't quite got that in my head at what point the size 12s left the stored wrapped gifts in the basement to becoming an unwrapped gift in JonBenet's upstairs drawer.

Patsy's explanation left a lot to be desired imo.

 

[balaney]

I agree with a lot of this and answers a lot of my questions about why PR was wearing the same outfit and why JR took a shower and PR did not. The one thing I struggle with is, why the sexual assault? but then I think I answered my question as I am writing this. They needed to make a motive for her still being found within the house. They needed the rn to point the finger to someone else outside the family. But the problem they then would encounter is that JBR was found inside the home so the motive couldn't possibly be ransom. So what other motive could there be? That leads me to believe that they had to make another motive and reason that JBR was not taken from the home and thus the sexual assault.

IMO. I feel the sexual innuendos found in the staging of Jonbonet were done in case the child had an autopsy and signs of sexual abuse were found. I feel she died by accident at the hands of her brother or parents and her parents covered it up. If either parent were abusing her they would have reason to stage and keep quiet. If she was murdered or it was an accident (by family member) there would be no reason to stage sexual activities unless one of the three left alive had molested jb. Either way, if Patsy wrote the note, she was involved in staging which would mean she knew of sexual abuse.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm following you on the above. But how did the story get switched to the size 12s being in JonBenet's drawer? I haven't quite got that in my head at what point the size 12s left the stored wrapped gifts in the basement to becoming an unwrapped gift in JonBenet's upstairs drawer.

Patsy's explanation left a lot to be desired imo.

BOESP,

Patsy ...

1 Q. The underwear that she was

2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you

3 know where they come from as far as what

4 store?

5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.

6 Q. Who purchased those?

7 A. I did.

Patsy ...

1 A. I am sure that I put the package

2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened

3 them and put them on.

Patsy ...

15 THE WITNESS: They were just in

16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I

17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all

18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can

19 help herself to whatever is in there.

Patsy ...

MS. HARMER: I guess I am not

21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to

22 Jenny.

23 THE WITNESS: Right.

24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in

25 JonBenet's bathroom?

0087

1 A. Right.

Patsy ...

2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm

3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then

4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet

5 express an interest in them; therefore, you

6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --

7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I

8 think I bought them with the intention of

9 sending them in a package of Christmas things

10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that

11 together, so I just put them in her, her

12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

Patsy ...

Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it

6 this way. Did you say you bought more than

7 one set of Bloomi's?

8 A. I can't remember.

9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?

10 A. I can't remember.

11 Q. Why is it that you remember

12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of

13 1996?

Patsy ...

18 MR. WOOD: Do you have a precise

19 recollection of that event occurring where

20 all of a sudden something happened and you

21 decided it was some big deal?

22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I

23 mean, my first thought is something in the

24 tabloids, but, you know, they get everything

25 wrong, so --

0093

1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you

2 aware that these were the size of panties

3 that she was wearing, and this has been

4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they

5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of

6 that?

7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.

8 Q. And how did you become aware of

9 that?

10 A. Something I read, I am sure.

11 Q. And I will just state a fact

12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties

13 taken out of, by the police, out of

14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is

15 that where she kept -

16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

17 Q. -- where you were describing that

18 they were just put in that drawer?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was

21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

22 Would that have been about the size pair of

23 panties that she wore when she was six years

24 old?
25 A. I would say more like six to eight

at what point the size 12s left the stored wrapped gifts in the basement to becoming an unwrapped gift in JonBenet's upstairs drawer.

Patsy is saying she purchased Bloomingdale's panties in November of 1996, and at some point between that date and 12/25/1996 she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer for her personal use.

I think her account is invented, designed to explain away why JonBenet was found dead wearing size-12's. The problem with this account is that no size-12's were found in JonBenet's underwear drawer. Why would Patsy willingly take responsibility for placing the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, if she knew they had been removed for forensic reasons?

James Kolar stated on the radioblog that the partially opened gifts were opened earlier that day. If this is correct then there should be an empty gift parcel?

With no name tags on the gifts and no size-12's then Patsy's account is unverifiable.


.

 

[BOESP]

No wonder I'm confused about the panties UKGuy.

I think her account is invented, designed to explain away why JonBenet was found dead wearing size-12's. ... Why would Patsy willingly take responsibility for placing the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, if she knew they had been removed for forensic reasons?

I agree with you UKGuy -- her account was invented. I think Patsy was winging it and when her thoughts couldn't keep up with her previous statements she stated "I don't know" or "I don't remember," all the while trying to pull together something that in her mind wouldn't incriminate her.

 

[Charterhouse]

Didn't we learn the panties were finally returned to LE years later in the original packaging with the Wed panties removed from the center of the package. Which would mean they never made it to the underwear drawer.

I will try and find where I read that. I always felt that Patsy thought she had to put the size 12's Wed panties on JB because someone might have seen her earlier in them. So there had to be a dirty pair somewhere in that house or she was wearing them.

 

[BOESP]

Didn't we learn the panties were finally returned to LE years later in the original packaging with the Wed panties removed from the center of the package. Which would mean they never made it to the underwear drawer.

I will try and find where I read that. I always felt that Patsy thought she had to put the size 12's Wed panties on JB because someone might have seen her earlier in them. So there had to be a dirty pair somewhere in that house or she was wearing them.

BBM: that is another part of the confusion. Since we are told LE removed all the underwear in JonBenet's drawer how did the remainder of the size 12s end up going to Atlanta with John and Patsy? My best guesses:

1. magic
2. the "Intruder" removed the package from the drawer and hid them in the Boulder house and the criminalist team failed to find them but the moving company did find them
3. Patsy Ramsey lied

ETA: click the link after the poster's name and it will take you to a good discussion on the location of the panties:

I am not confused. If the dna on the panties matches the dna on the longjohns as a couple of posters here have been arguing for days, what is there to be confused about? Patsy Ramsey LIED to LE about those size 12 panties being in JonBenet's drawer to wear (if she chose). You have the right to believe her lies, but I refuse to be "confused" by the bs the Ramseys have been slinging for 14 years. The panties were in the basement, wrapped as a gift for P's niece and were not opened until the night of JB's murder. It would seem as though confusion, on this board, is a relative term.

 

[Charterhouse]

I should have know it would be here that I read about the package of Bloomingdale Panties.

It is in the thread: The Oversized Bloomindale Panties started 1-3-2011, last post 3-5-2013. (A two year discussion about panties) It does state the panties that were found in the drawer were size 4-6.

I don't want to site any one post. Many near the end mentioned the "package of Bloomingdale panties" that were returned to LE.

That is an excellent thread that mentions all about the panties and all the tests that people have done about them.

You are right joeskidbec Patsy lied and not only about the panties. No confusion here.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm following you on the above. But how did the story get switched to the size 12s being in JonBenet's drawer? I haven't quite got that in my head at what point the size 12s left the stored wrapped gifts in the basement to becoming an unwrapped gift in JonBenet's upstairs drawer.

Patsy's explanation left a lot to be desired imo.

That was nothing more than Patsy's say-so. NO LE ever claimed to find these panties anywhere in the house, nor were there ANY other size 12 panties found. The story didn't get switched. Some people simply decided to believe Patsy, even though she lied and even though the panties were never found in the drawer.

 

[Chrishope]

BOESP,

Patsy ...


Patsy ...


Patsy ...


Patsy ...


Patsy ...


Patsy ...


Patsy ...



Patsy is saying she purchased Bloomingdale's panties in November of 1996, and at some point between that date and 12/25/1996 she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer for her personal use.

I think her account is invented, designed to explain away why JonBenet was found dead wearing size-12's. The problem with this account is that no size-12's were found in JonBenet's underwear drawer. Why would Patsy willingly take responsibility for placing the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, if she knew they had been removed for forensic reasons?

James Kolar stated on the radioblog that the partially opened gifts were opened earlier that day. If this is correct then there should be an empty gift parcel?

With no name tags on the gifts and no size-12's then Patsy's account is unverifiable.


.

Good question.

 

[Chrishope]

I agree with a lot of this and answers a lot of my questions about why PR was wearing the same outfit and why JR took a shower and PR did not. The one thing I struggle with is, why the sexual assault? but then I think I answered my question as I am writing this. They needed to make a motive for her still being found within the house. They needed the rn to point the finger to someone else outside the family. But the problem they then would encounter is that JBR was found inside the home so the motive couldn't possibly be ransom. So what other motive could there be? That leads me to believe that they had to make another motive and reason that JBR was not taken from the home and thus the sexual assault.

So if they switched from kidnapping to SA why didn't they destroy the RN? It's weird to have a SA killing and a RN.

The WC isn't really staged as a sex murder site. It's more like a stash site. Stash the body and other evidence in there until it can be dealt with.

This is why I favor the DocG theory, because staging both a kidnapping and a SA murder really doesn't make sense and the scene in the WC doesn't look like a SA murder. It's not until autopsy that there is anything sexual about the crime.

 

[BOESP]

Chrishope, one of the reasons that Steve Thomas's theory makes the most sense to me is because of what you call the sexual assault. I see it as corporal cleansing.

If Thomas is right, then Patsy did know about the damage JonBenet incurred and in her mind that may have required a staged event to explain that damage (sexual organ damage done during the corporal cleansing in addition to the skull fracture).

Patsy may have believed a kidnapper might also sexually assault a child before leaving the scene so she used the paintbrush to make that part of her fantasy of how she thought the police would see it -- a kidnapper who sexually assaulted JonBenet before he left the house and in the act killed her.

When Patsy couldn't bear the thoughts of that child being taken into the cold dark night she put her in the wine cellar, wrapped her papoose style, placed her Barbie night gown by JonBenet's side, and hoped for the best. The "ransom note" would explain it all.

They left the ransom note because Patsy didn't know what she was doing and thought the ransom note made a good prop to use to prove an intruder did it.

 

[Chrishope]

That was nothing more than Patsy's say-so. NO LE ever claimed to find these panties anywhere in the house, nor were there ANY other size 12 panties found. The story didn't get switched. Some people simply decided to believe Patsy, even though she lied and even though the panties were never found in the drawer.

It's not so much that people decided to believe her, in fact it's always a bit difficult to believe a Ramsey. It's that people began to ask themselves why PR would lie about it when it's obvious -to PR- that the police already knew the 12s were not in the drawer.

PR knows the issue will come up in questioning. She knows the police searched the house. If she knows the 12s were never in the drawer then she knows the police did not find them in the drawer. Why then would she tell the police the 12s were in the drawer?

One possibility is that the 12s really had been given to JB for her own use, and were in the drawer, possibly still in the package, which would be easy enough to remove.

Of course that leaves us wondering why the package of 12s would be removed.

If PR is lying then presumably this is to further the story they are telling - we put her to bed, woke up shortly before 6, found the RN, etc.

But then either JB must have been wearing the 12s to the party, or JB changed into them during the night, or the "intruder" put them on her.

Since we are expected to believe an intruder would have bothered to redress her, it's really not necessary that JB wore them to the party, nor is it necessary that she changed into them herself during the night. Neither is it necessary for them to be in the drawer for the intruder to redress her, since he takes her to the basement and therefore could have had access to them there, if they were stored there. In fact, the story of them being in the basement awaiting shipment to Jenny would go along with the kidnapper turned SA murderer story at least as well as them being in the drawer.

So the "lie" isn't really needed to further the story.