I thought the same thing about her mention of the "secret stash" in the red satin box. Sounds like it might have been a Valentine heart. And I can't imagine she wouldn't have mentioned the feces if they were smeared on the box. And I can't imagine there was a SECOND candy box, but it is possible. So two things are possible- there was NO feces smeared on the candy box and it was a miscommunication over feces smeared in her clothes, etc. Or there was feces on that candy box and somehow this was not mentioned.
James Kolar's New Book Will Blow the Lid off the JonBenet Ramsey Investigation
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I thought the same thing about her mention of the "secret stash" in the red satin box. Sounds like it might have been a Valentine heart. And I can't imagine she wouldn't have mentioned the feces if they were smeared on the box. And I can't imagine there was a SECOND candy box, but it is possible. So two things are possible- there was NO feces smeared on the candy box and it was a miscommunication over feces smeared in her clothes, etc. Or there was feces on that candy box and somehow this was not mentioned.
midwest mama
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Because Ms. Smith had to leave the Ramsey chapter out of her book, I suspect she was also very careful when doing the interview. Just the fact that the sentence was careful to use the word, "poignant" draws our attention to the fact that this box of candy held a great deal of importance to her study of the room. And it was a single sentence - on purpose, to draw the attention of the reader??
Otherwise, if the candy box didn't seem too out of the ordinary to her, why would she bother to mention it? I think she commented about the candy box the way she did because she felt it had some connection to the dynamic of child abuse she was investigating, but because of the pressure she was under to nix Ramsey information from her book, she had to be vague about it.
here is what I've been kind of thinking. Maybe there wasn't much feces, so this lady didn't notice, because she didn't study it real closely? just looked at it and assumed it was a secret stash? IDK about this, because she was relieved of her duties at about the time IMO, that the feces might have been recognized by somebody. And since this was her job description, and it's what she was there for, it looks like this information might have been discovered and then kept from her. IMO, there's a good possibility that the feces belonged to JBR so I would like to know what this lady has to say about it all. Another thing that makes me think there might have been just a small amount of feces...IMO, if there had been a big mess or an odor, PR, would have gotten rid of it. Most mothers would, IMO, regardless of who did what that night. It's 1 of those things you wouldn't want investigators knowing about your child. Wasn't there also something about a mound of feces in JB's bed? or was that a different day?
midwest mama
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Yep, grapefruit size, according to a statement by a housekeeper who found it on a different day in JB's bed.
Even if she didn't see the feces, she'd have had to have smelled it. Ever track a small bit of dog poo in on your shoe? You smell it long before you actually check your shoe. If you've ever had kids, you know you can smell a poopy diaper before you even get near the crib. No way she didn't smell a candy box smeared with feces if it was there.
Did the housekeeper allude to who it belonged to?
OpenMind4U
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DD, I agree with you. PR should smell it. And it's not only feces she should smell in JB's room. I'm sure JB's room has overwhelming smell of urine as well. The stain of urine was found on her bed, on her carpet and who knows where else. But I doubt it would bothered PR at all! Patsy's first priority was an appearance not the substance! Her parenting skills were stinks. How could she allows her own child to go for days without the bath?! And what happens during the bath time that made JB screams and cries?! Usually, for 6 years old child, the bath time should be the 'happy' time...but not in Ramsey's house. Plus something else.
Did you notice the difference in the 'substance' of JB's room versa Burke's room? Did you see JB's bathroom? In the picture from Kolar book, the staff on her vanity top and drawers are NOT child related. Without knowledge, anyone who would see this picture, never guessed it it was the CHILD's bathroom!!!
The point I'm trying to make is that PR was not the CARING mother as she and John were trying to portait her. Patsy was about Patsy!...not her children, period. She would smell the 'smell' but wouldn't care! It wasn't her priority. The trophies, the 'proper' make-up/clothes/shoes and bags - this what Ramsey's are all about. And what was the reason to keep the stained JB's panties in the drawer??? Does she has not enough money to replace them all with the new, fresh one, regardless of Bloomy or not?:banghead:
Bottom line: Patsy doesn't care!!!!...not about the smell and not about her children's health. IMO, all these doctor's visits with JB were due to the fact that Patsy needs JB to feel and look good for up-coming pageant...or/and other show-off party.
JMO
midwest mama
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It was LHP who talked about seeing it in JB's bed. JB had just turned 5 when LHP came to work for the Ramsey's, so her fecal staining/accidents could have been ongoing for quite some time.
If Patsy had gone over the edge on a tirade against JB the night she was killed, I would think it might have been over the BM issue rather than bedwetting. Bedwetting is usually an unconscious activity - kids sleep through it. BM's on the other hand, not so.
Did Patsy go over the edge late on Christmas night because of having to clean up a "dirtied JB"? And then smear some of the feces on the candy box, in the midst of the tirade just to punish her some more?
I seem to recall reading that Patsy told someone that she would have to cleanse JB, correct me if I'm wrong, with a douche if she pooped herself, just to insure total vaginal cleansing as well. As discussed at an earlier time, a douche tip could have caused some vaginal injury to JB that night, especially if Patsy was angry when using it.
And there were toilet samples taken by the police, said to have come from an unflushed toilet? Maybe dirty t.p.??
midwest mama
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Search warrants listed tissue and toilet tissue, a toilet seat lid, and liquid from toilet twice - which I take to mean two different toilets. JonBenet's toilet and the basement toilet were part of the investigation at the house.
JR told Lou Smit that the basement toilet did not work well, but there was toilet tissue seen on the tank in a photo that Smit showed to him. JR also told Smit that a boy down the alley, Evan, came in and out nearly every day to play with Burke and JR thought Evan had used the toilet and it had worked, which was Amazing. Also, he thought maybe Burke would use the toilet if he played down there. But that it might not work.
Obviously the basement toilet was a point of interest, besides the one in JB's room. Question is, why?
JR told Lou Smit that the basement toilet did not work well, but there was toilet tissue seen on the tank in a photo that Smit showed to him. JR also told Smit that a boy down the alley, Evan, came in and out nearly every day to play with Burke and JR thought Evan had used the toilet and it had worked, which was Amazing. Also, he thought maybe Burke would use the toilet if he played down there. But that it might not work.
Obviously the basement toilet was a point of interest, besides the one in JB's room. Question is, why?
belimom
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Just finished the book. I didn't really learn many new things (but some - and more in-depth), but what it did was organize it all so that it was easier to get the big picture. Rather than bits here and there, it filled in the gaps. And for that, it is a very good book.
I was disappointed that he did not include his prosecution theory, but I can understand why. I appreciate the way he went out on a limb with his theory and the evidence as he saw it - going against the flow.
I'll discuss the theories elsewhere.
What a tragedy - one of the most solvable cases (in my mind) has gone unsolved for so long.
I was disappointed that he did not include his prosecution theory, but I can understand why. I appreciate the way he went out on a limb with his theory and the evidence as he saw it - going against the flow.
I'll discuss the theories elsewhere.
What a tragedy - one of the most solvable cases (in my mind) has gone unsolved for so long.
belimom
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You know, I was thinking about this case some more - and the Grand Jury and the DA's office, etc. Then I drew an analogy with John Grisham's "A Time To Kill". In similar fashion (I won't spoil it for those who haven't read the book or seen the movie), what if this happened:
Take the evidence but change the characters. Switch if from a rich white girl to a poor black boy. On the wrong side of the tracks rather than a wealthy neighborhood. No political clout, no money to persuade people, no connections, no special treatment by LE (such as being allowed to remove items from a crime scene - to name just one?!? (Patsy's sis)). But the same evidence: notepad, handwriting, found in the home, parents acting strange, etc.
I guarandamntee you that there would have been a murder trial resulting in conviction(s) of the killer(s). No doubt about it.
Take the evidence but change the characters. Switch if from a rich white girl to a poor black boy. On the wrong side of the tracks rather than a wealthy neighborhood. No political clout, no money to persuade people, no connections, no special treatment by LE (such as being allowed to remove items from a crime scene - to name just one?!? (Patsy's sis)). But the same evidence: notepad, handwriting, found in the home, parents acting strange, etc.
I guarandamntee you that there would have been a murder trial resulting in conviction(s) of the killer(s). No doubt about it.
midwest mama,
Since JonBenet may have used it the evening of her death, or it was used to dispose of forensic evidence?
Possibly proof it had been used demonstrates that the basement played an important role in the death of JonBenet?
.
Darlene733510
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Being that Burke's friend Evan frequently entered and used the basement toilet, I wonder if they ever checked his DNA?
I was reading at ForumsForJustice yesterday and came across a post that moved me deeply. We have discussed Burke, numerous times and if/what disease process he may/may not have. Kolar's book of course leads us to question this further.
What we do know, is that his behaviors after the death of JonBenet, seemed abnormal to many of us. I had losses at a young age and I still remember the feelings I went through, the grief and the mourning period. When I was 5 my Uncle was killed in a motorcycle accident, 8, a friend in my class was killed in an accident. The feelings, while different, were real and strong.
I remember that the losses affected everyone around me in different ways, but we all reacted. Some positively, some not as much.
Anyway, with permission, I am posting Cherokee's post here and in the 'Was Burke involved' thread. She was able to convey what I really wanted to, but was unable to. Thank you Cherokee!
Originally Posted by Cherokee
Burke's lack of tears or any emotion at JonBenet's death and funeral and the later interview with the psychologist seem indicative of a person who felt nothing at JonBenet's loss. I know people with Asperger's have difficulty expressing their emotions, but even then, they can usually cry and show signs of mourning/depression when suffering a heartbreak. Burke acted like nothing had happened. He didn't ask questions, he didn't comment, he just left JonBenet out of his picture.
When I was in 3rd grade, one of my best friends was accidentally shot dead by his older brother while they were fighting over a gun on the front porch. They told us the next day at school, and there was immediate sadness. Collectively, and individually, we felt a loss. Those of us who were closer to Donnie cried, and the boys who usually played ball with him at recess just stood around. No one felt like playing, and no one could imagine never seeing Donnie again. I was upset and missed Donnie for a long time. Back then, they didn't have school counselors for kids to see when they'd suffered the loss of a classmate. Some people have wondered if Burke, as an almost 10 year old, could have understood the finality of JonBenet's death. I am here to tell you, he was old enough to understand, and he was most certainly old enough to mourn.
We were only eight-years-old, two years younger than Burke, and yet we felt the absence of Donnie immediately and for a long time afterwards. We mourned Donnie, and we talked about him, and we asked questions about how he died. No one can tell me that it is normal for a boy, three weeks away from being 10, to act like Burke did when his baby sister was murdered in his own home while he was present. Not only should he have mourned his sister and asked questions and acted like there had been a loss, Burke should have shown concern and fear about a predator/intruder who had gained access to his home and killed in silence with no physical trace. THAT is the stuff of nightmares, but Burke went on about his life as if nothing happened. His facial expressions are not changed from before JonBenet's death. There was no discernable difference in his world.
Thank you again Cherokee. Sentiments many of us have felt, but failed to express so eloquently.
What we do know, is that his behaviors after the death of JonBenet, seemed abnormal to many of us. I had losses at a young age and I still remember the feelings I went through, the grief and the mourning period. When I was 5 my Uncle was killed in a motorcycle accident, 8, a friend in my class was killed in an accident. The feelings, while different, were real and strong.
I remember that the losses affected everyone around me in different ways, but we all reacted. Some positively, some not as much.
Anyway, with permission, I am posting Cherokee's post here and in the 'Was Burke involved' thread. She was able to convey what I really wanted to, but was unable to. Thank you Cherokee!
Originally Posted by Cherokee
Burke's lack of tears or any emotion at JonBenet's death and funeral and the later interview with the psychologist seem indicative of a person who felt nothing at JonBenet's loss. I know people with Asperger's have difficulty expressing their emotions, but even then, they can usually cry and show signs of mourning/depression when suffering a heartbreak. Burke acted like nothing had happened. He didn't ask questions, he didn't comment, he just left JonBenet out of his picture.
When I was in 3rd grade, one of my best friends was accidentally shot dead by his older brother while they were fighting over a gun on the front porch. They told us the next day at school, and there was immediate sadness. Collectively, and individually, we felt a loss. Those of us who were closer to Donnie cried, and the boys who usually played ball with him at recess just stood around. No one felt like playing, and no one could imagine never seeing Donnie again. I was upset and missed Donnie for a long time. Back then, they didn't have school counselors for kids to see when they'd suffered the loss of a classmate. Some people have wondered if Burke, as an almost 10 year old, could have understood the finality of JonBenet's death. I am here to tell you, he was old enough to understand, and he was most certainly old enough to mourn.
We were only eight-years-old, two years younger than Burke, and yet we felt the absence of Donnie immediately and for a long time afterwards. We mourned Donnie, and we talked about him, and we asked questions about how he died. No one can tell me that it is normal for a boy, three weeks away from being 10, to act like Burke did when his baby sister was murdered in his own home while he was present. Not only should he have mourned his sister and asked questions and acted like there had been a loss, Burke should have shown concern and fear about a predator/intruder who had gained access to his home and killed in silence with no physical trace. THAT is the stuff of nightmares, but Burke went on about his life as if nothing happened. His facial expressions are not changed from before JonBenet's death. There was no discernable difference in his world.
Thank you again Cherokee. Sentiments many of us have felt, but failed to express so eloquently.
tweezybird
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Just finished Chief Kolars book, excellent. I've always thought Burke had some involvement. I just wish Kolar was able to talk about his theory of how it happened, how he saw the events of that night play out.
Rashi'sDaughter
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Me too, Tweezybird. I wonder why not, really, since no prosecution is possible. At least the truth could out, as they say. It's very doubtful JR would sue Kolar with everything at stake, and his house of cards in shambles.
midwest mama
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What do you mean, no prosecution possible?? As long as this case remains an open murder investigation, which it is at this point, there is a possibility for charges to be filed, depending on evidence coming to light which could provide a path for an indictment.
Granted, Patsy is gone, and Burke cannot be charged, but the GJ did vote to indict BOTH of the R's at one time, and that was long ago with records sealed and other information not pursued. If a new GJ get's called, it is not impossible for them to call for an investigation process which could glean new evidence. I'm staying hopeful, and I hope that Kolar holds out for a time he would be called into the GJ or a witness stand to tell us all what he knows!