Japan - Miyazawa family of 4 murdered, Setagaya, Tokyo, 30 Dec 2000

[AnyNameIWish]

OK so i'm re-listening to E1 and at 27:57 I can hear the Chief speaking in Japanese. He's saying "nihon zenkoku sumi kara sumi made sore kichinto yatteruka doka" - something about "whether they were able to "completely/accurately do something through the entire country of Japan" and then I can't make out the rest. I THINK what he is saying (without hearing the entire Japanese clip) is that he is admitting that they were unable to, at the time of the murders, check every single corner/nook and cranny of Japan to check for the culprit. Which, to me, is 100% indicative of the fact they were unable to check places like US Military bases (where jurisdiction would be difficult, the history of assaults in Okinawa of women in past history is a testament to this)

Your audio playing in the background does not reflect what is being translated, so for me it's a little confusing, but I understanding why it had to be done this way.

 

[Charlot123]

If the father was a doctor, he absolutely knew the son had cut himself badly and it probably did take him long to work out how. But what option does he have? Call the TMPD and surrender his son? Or swear him to secrecy? As you say, the second the killer leaves Japan, assuming he does, I think it becomes x1000 easier to avoid justice in this case.

Edit to say that if I am right about the POI, then while he is evading justice, I also do not believe he will re-offend. Obviously I cannot be certain but now he has a family situation and a career, things that he cannot afford to lose. My belief is that has disconnected his past from his persona today, even if he goes back to that night in his mind. JMO.

First - I reread what I have written and want to say that you have done an amazing job, @FacelessPodcast. Take any case that is well-known, it is either because the relatives made it known, or we feel empathy because we can imagine ourselves in the shoes of the victims/their families. Given that many have never been to Japan, it is harder to imagine how it all went, and it was over twenty years ago. You gave these victims voices, @FacelessPodcast, while retaining their privacy. You gave their mothers voices. And even Tokyo police, who has done a good job, but maybe too difficult a case, too many roadblocks.

And then, of course, the father is probably in denial. It is hard to believe and possibly, father can not understand. Or, it might be the case of extreme mental rigidity.

Now, about reoffending. I don’t know. How many serial killers have families and kids? A lot. I think children are a good way to hold on to something positive. My feeling is, if he killed these four only, maybe he has not reoffended. If the tail-less cats found in skaters’ park were his doing, you bet he will reoffend, if he yet hasn’t. There might be an incredibly rare situation when he is diagnosed, is on medications for anger, dissociation or whatever else he might have, and they work, so his anger is restrained. But it is seldom when people have such an insight.

 

[Charlot123]

@FacelessPodcast I’m very curious if you think your POI (if he actually is the perpetrator) would be reading about the case online still, and here for instance.

I can be absolutely incorrect, but I feel like number of people who are mixed race, at least half Asian, who was an adolescent in 2000 living on an American military base in Japan with their potentially mixed race family who returned to the US within a few years of the crime has to be a small pool, especially if there’s a specific base in mind, and especially if they were linked to the specific base in the US where the sand was from.

I’m also curious how available those kind of personnel/family records are to the public. I’m sure records exist, whether or not civilians have access to those, I don’t know.

I also wonder, considering the perps DNA is likely to never leave Japan, how hard it would be to get the POI’s DNA *into* Japan. How difficult it would be for LE, or a civilian, to collect a used water bottle, bag it tag it and bring somewhere after a flight over there. (It’s very late, I’m very tired and I’m just rambling now. I’ve known about this case for a long time but it’s been in my heart a lot recently as I’m going to Japan for the first time in March.)

Here is the problem. To collect DNA and get it into another country - no problem, if you think how we shed it everywhere. Comparing? Yes. Easy. But making a case out of it without legal judge’s order - no. (But at least, people will know.)

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I can't help feeling Japan's strict laws on the use of DNA are the biggest hindrance. In a country such as the UK or the USA, where familial DNA comparison is permitted, I think there's a good chance the case would have been solved. The alternative is that TMPD have an idea who did it but don't want to say for one reason or another.

This murder strikes me as the work of a first time offender. Maybe they had burgled before, but I don't think they had killed previously.

If this was personal, and the rage was specifically at the Miyazawa family, I think it's highly possible this was the only such attack the killer ever committed. And if they did kill again (or previously), I think their M.O. must have been different enough that the events were never connected by LE.

 

[lilykaluva]

For now I'm starting on episode 1, Bloodshed- I'll email it to your Gmail, @FacelessPodcast ??? I'm home sick today and tomorrow so i hope it'll be done soon.

If anyone takes episode# 2 please post here!

I can do episode 2, if you'd like!

 

[FacelessPodcast]

I can do episode 2, if you'd like!

You're too kind! I think episode 2 may already be in the works, Lily. Episode 3? Let me add you to a chat.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

Yes, he has “his” now. When I look at the photo above of the lovely Miyazawa family, I wonder what kind of evil exists that can destroy, in the most violent way, an entire family, children and all.

I hope and pray that one day there will be a penalty. For both the sake of the family and the killer. There has to be an atonement.

Absolutely agree. To quote that mini-series Chernobyl, every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. And, sooner or later, the debt is paid.

Of course, in the real world, plenty of people get away with things they shouldn't. But at least it's heartening to see so much support here for the efforts against that happening. And as for atonement, I'm going to do everything I can to push this man out into the light.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

@FacelessPodcast I’m very curious if you think your POI (if he actually is the perpetrator) would be reading about the case online still, and here for instance.

I can be absolutely incorrect, but I feel like number of people who are mixed race, at least half Asian, who was an adolescent in 2000 living on an American military base in Japan with their potentially mixed race family who returned to the US within a few years of the crime has to be a small pool, especially if there’s a specific base in mind, and especially if they were linked to the specific base in the US where the sand was from.

I’m also curious how available those kind of personnel/family records are to the public. I’m sure records exist, whether or not civilians have access to those, I don’t know.

I also wonder, considering the perps DNA is likely to never leave Japan, how hard it would be to get the POI’s DNA *into* Japan. How difficult it would be for LE, or a civilian, to collect a used water bottle, bag it tag it and bring somewhere after a flight over there. (It’s very late, I’m very tired and I’m just rambling now. I’ve known about this case for a long time but it’s been in my heart a lot recently as I’m going to Japan for the first time in March.)

I can't actually decide whether he's so self-involved that he follows the case online closely to give himself a laugh. Or whether has zero interest in the thoughts of others. My feeling is probably the latter. At most, I can imagine him chuckling to himself and then simply removing it from his thoughts. But if he is reading this, it doesn't really change anything. Either for him or me.

FOIA requests are not applicable to US military bases outside of the country. Whether it's Guantanamo or Yokota. But those records are out there. They also made a point of telling me they can't 'do research' for me. So, I couldn't for example ask them for a list of all males present on Edwards AFB pre year 2000 who transferred to Yokota. You have to come to them with limited and specific enquiry. And a name. Which is so catch 22 it's laughable.

Also, we don't actually know that the killer was mixed race at all. Only that there's a *chance*. It's possible both the killer's parents were Asian (and in fact I would say a lot more likely).

As for getting his DNA into Japan, it's basically moot. Until they have a legal framework to investigate DNA, there's essentially no point trying. However, there are other ways without using DNA...

But on a happier note, that's wonderful re: your Japan trip. I'm no expert but I've spent quite a bit of time there so me know if you need any tips! (That goes for the group ofc).

 

[FacelessPodcast]

OK so i'm re-listening to E1 and at 27:57 I can hear the Chief speaking in Japanese. He's saying "nihon zenkoku sumi kara sumi made sore kichinto yatteruka doka" - something about "whether they were able to "completely/accurately do something through the entire country of Japan" and then I can't make out the rest. I THINK what he is saying (without hearing the entire Japanese clip) is that he is admitting that they were unable to, at the time of the murders, check every single corner/nook and cranny of Japan to check for the culprit. Which, to me, is 100% indicative of the fact they were unable to check places like US Military bases (where jurisdiction would be difficult, the history of assaults in Okinawa of women in past history is a testament to this)

Your audio playing in the background does not reflect what is being translated, so for me it's a little confusing, but I understanding why it had to be done this way.

My feeling is that the producer (an English-speaker) probably had no clue the Japanese audio he's playing while I'm narrating over it, so it's probably out of context or out of sequence. However, the Chief did say words to that effect during our interviews. He wouldn't have been talking about US air bases because he closed that topic off quite a bit (the one subject that was seemingly verboten) but it stands to reason that they can't comb 100% of the nation.

It also stands to reason that it would be next to impossible for them to get on to a US air base without a damn good reason. A judge isn't going to sign an order, risking all kinds of diplomatic head aches, for a fishing trip into an American military complex for them to start questioning high schoolers. That's JMO but I think it stands as pretty self-evident.

And I can also say for a fact, speaking with former residents on US airbases in Japan, that it sounds like the first port of call is for criminality to be dealt with internally. I've had various people say that the local authorities were petitioned so that a criminal matter would be dealt with on-base. And in all those examples, though of course anecdotal, the Japanese authority granted the request.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

First - I reread what I have written and want to say that you have done an amazing job, @FacelessPodcast. Take any case that is well-known, it is either because the relatives made it known, or we feel empathy because we can imagine ourselves in the shoes of the victims/their families. Given that many have never been to Japan, it is harder to imagine how it all went, and it was over twenty years ago. You gave these victims voices, @FacelessPodcast, while retaining their privacy. You gave their mothers voices. And even Tokyo police, who has done a good job, but maybe too difficult a case, too many roadblocks.

And then, of course, the father is probably in denial. It is hard to believe and possibly, father can not understand. Or, it might be the case of extreme mental rigidity.

Now, about reoffending. I don’t know. How many serial killers have families and kids? A lot. I think children are a good way to hold on to something positive. My feeling is, if he killed these four only, maybe he has not reoffended. If the tail-less cats found in skaters’ park were his doing, you bet he will reoffend, if he yet hasn’t. There might be an incredibly rare situation when he is diagnosed, is on medications for anger, dissociation or whatever else he might have, and they work, so his anger is restrained. But it is seldom when people have such an insight.

I appreciate that very much, Charlot. Setsuko deserved to be heard. Chief Tsuchita deserved to be heard. I'm very glad we managed to give them that space and that hopefully it keeps the torch burning on some small level.

RE: the killer's father. I would agree that, whoever he is, he's probably in denial. It's easier to live in a world where you son is disturbed and made terrible mistakes versus one where you have created a cold-blooded savage. But I've seen first-hand that people can survive and make a life around almost anything. A new normal can always be found. That's just my feeling but it wouldn't shock me if that's the dynamic in the killer's family today.

RE: the cat killings in the park, that case was supposedly solved by the TMPD (although the man in question protested his innocence which is actually not super common in Japan). As for the killer not acting out again. I'm only talking in terms of my POI. If it IS him, my feeling is that he will never raise his head above the parapet again. Of course, if I'm wrong, then who knows if he will kill again, or even if he has already.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

I can't help feeling Japan's strict laws on the use of DNA are the biggest hindrance. In a country such as the UK or the USA, where familial DNA comparison is permitted, I think there's a good chance the case would have been solved. The alternative is that TMPD have an idea who did it but don't want to say for one reason or another.

This murder strikes me as the work of a first time offender. Maybe they had burgled before, but I don't think they had killed previously.

If this was personal, and the rage was specifically at the Miyazawa family, I think it's highly possible this was the only such attack the killer ever committed. And if they did kill again (or previously), I think their M.O. must have been different enough that the events were never connected by LE.

The issue in Japan is that while it's true there is a fierce defence of privacy, there simply are no laws around using DNA in the way we do in the UK / US etc. So, those laws would have to be put in place and there is currently seemingly little appetite for giving the police yet more powers in a country where they have more powers than basically anywhere else. Particularly when murder is basically non-existent in Japan and the ever-burgeoning culture of sensitivity towards victims may not be, without any disrespect intended, what it is in other places. Of course, I don't say that as some kind of inherent failing in Japan, more that they simply don't have the murders for critical mass in societal opinion shifts that we do in the US / UK. So, all that to say -- their lack of DNA laws absolutely do limit murder cases like this one. But the key is, they just do not get cases like this. There are a handful in the last 23 years. That's why it's a blessing that people like Chief Tsuchita and a few others are out there campaigning...

RE: the offender himself, I agree, I think he had broken laws before and likely engaged in violence but these were his first murders. Where I'm not sure I agree is whether the killer hated the Miyazawas directly or whether he simply used them to discharge his rage. I actually lean towards the latter as it would explain how there can be a lack of relationship.

 

[FrankyCentaur]

Here is the problem. To collect DNA and get it into another country - no problem, if you think how we shed it everywhere. Comparing? Yes. Easy. But making a case out of it without legal judge’s order - no. (But at least, people will know.)

My potentially very stupid scenario here, split into two, being,

I, a random America, have extremely strong suspicion towards a particular person, and collect their DNA in a very delicate manner as our LE already does. I bring this object to Japan, and with my non existent communication skills, try to bring this to Japanese LE. Of course, even if they understood me, that evidence will never be tested.

Or,

Same scenario, but the evidence is left near LE anonymously, with a very clearly worded letter, and is taken by LE. My thought is, if this happened in the US with a long dormant and extremely infamous cold case and LE has legitimately no clue who dropped off the evidence, there’s a good possibility they’ll run that DNA. I mean, we have a history of detectives seeking help from “psychics.” But would Japanese authorities just assume it’s a prank and chuck it?

I don’t know why I’m even wondering about this considering it’s not something I have the capability of doing.

 

[dotr]

noting fwiw..in a recent, unrelated murder case in Canada, LE used an interesting approach to collecting DNA from a particular community.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/tea-cup-sting-ibrahim-ali-investigation-1.7084214

Jan 15 2024
''Undercover police investigating the murder of a 13-year-old girl in British Columbia disguised themselves as tea marketers to secretly collect the DNA of about 150 Kurdish community members, court recordings reveal.

Homicide officers said the DNA was obtained at a 2018 Kurdish New Year celebration in Burnaby, B.C., where police handed out free tea samples in numbered cups that were later swabbed, in a sting that identified a brother of the suspect.''

 

[Charlot123]

I can't help feeling Japan's strict laws on the use of DNA are the biggest hindrance. In a country such as the UK or the USA, where familial DNA comparison is permitted, I think there's a good chance the case would have been solved. The alternative is that TMPD have an idea who did it but don't want to say for one reason or another.

This murder strikes me as the work of a first time offender. Maybe they had burgled before, but I don't think they had killed previously.

If this was personal, and the rage was specifically at the Miyazawa family, I think it's highly possible this was the only such attack the killer ever committed. And if they did kill again (or previously), I think their M.O. must have been different enough that the events were never connected by LE.

About personal. If here, in the US, someone did such a nasty thing and disappeared forever, I’d say, no chance they knew the family. There is zero connection between them. But if it happened far away, and the person just left the country, there could have been a connection. It could have been a direct connection, it could be hatred of the whole group, or just a random choice. But, mentally, the person is very sick.

My potentially very stupid scenario here, split into two, being,

I, a random America, have extremely strong suspicion towards a particular person, and collect their DNA in a very delicate manner as our LE already does. I bring this object to Japan, and with my non existent communication skills, try to bring this to Japanese LE. Of course, even if they understood me, that evidence will never be tested.

Or,

Same scenario, but the evidence is left near LE anonymously, with a very clearly worded letter, and is taken by LE. My thought is, if this happened in the US with a long dormant and extremely infamous cold case and LE has legitimately no clue who dropped off the evidence, there’s a good possibility they’ll run that DNA. I mean, we have a history of detectives seeking help from “psychics.” But would Japanese authorities just assume it’s a prank and chuck it?

I don’t know why I’m even wondering about this considering it’s not something I have the capability of doing.

I see. I once heard a German phrase "Gute miene Zum bösen spiel machen", "to make a pleasant face at an evil game", and liked it. So, I wonder if I could come to Tokyo LE, and, posing not an as American, but as a Russian tourist, complain about someone burglarizing my the place or stealing something from me, and bringing in DNA to test. To avoid bypassing privacy laws since the DNA is unknown. Just doing a DNA test in a potential petty crime. All they have is some DNA. All they will have are DNA results.

 

[AnyNameIWish]

I absolutely hold the TMPD to the highest regard... in 2000, TT would have been around 48 years old... I'm still wondering about brushing aside the whole 2chan thing.

2000. In Japan I was using a dial up service and connecting to AOL. My relatives and grandparents were NOT connected to the internet. The idea of an answering machine was strange to some of my relatives. What I'm trying to say is, I'm not 100% sure the police force would have fully understood what 2chan even is, and if computer forensics existed and even if they found exactly who was behind those posts. Moo.

 

[fridaybaker]

Charlotte, you are devious! If you aren't a detective in "real life", you should be!

 

[acutename]

Sorry for the long post....

"Significant strength" implies that he could not have moved directly from say, a tree into and through the window which I doubt was wide open.

I suspect he needed more than raw strength. Rather, entering through the window could have involved:

Strength: Would be on a narrow window sill. Even more challenging than a rounded pull up bar or rounded gymnastics equipment. Would probably need to support entire weight on one arm, while manipulating window with the other.

Athleticism: He would probably need to rapidly coordinate reaching for the sill (less than ideal hold), transferring his weight to one hand / arm, then manipulating the window and entering.

Experience: Even with strength and athleticism, he would need to solve a center of balance problem. Unable to lean forward though the pane, he would need to bring his center of balance as close to the building as possible via different forearm placements / hand rotations.

My human experiment....

A family member and her friend tried to enter a simulated narrow sill / high window. Both girls excel at multiple high school sports. Both are petite, strong for females, and physically agile.

Despite their athleticism, neither girl knew automatically how to solve the center of balance problem when trying to support their weight with one arm on a narrow "sill" and unable to lean forward.

The girls experimented with different hand / arm placements, then ran started to run into strength limitations when trying to support their weight, balance and open the simulated window. Both said they would love to keep trying, but had plans.

Conclusion

A comparatively athletic male could well have the “significant” body strength and also have athleticism to coordinate his movements.

But…. Given that neither of the two athletic test subjects could solve the center of balance problem “on the fly”, I doubt he could either. Rather, I strongly suspect that the killer also had previous experience.

This experience could come from previous burglaries with challenging windows, recreational rock climbing (either in the wild, or at a climbing gym), amateur gymnastics, or…. say, running military obstacle courses or possibly urban war fare practice.

parcour? (not suggesting that it was this practitioner- just that it was a thing about 20 yrs ago)

Take a high-flying freerunning tour of Tokyo with Jason Paul​

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Jul 22, 2018 — Inspired by the cult 2001 film, Yamakasi, in which the action scenes rely on parkour skills, Paul began training every day in his neighbourhood.

 

[acutename]

I appreciate disagreement! Interesting counter points, thank you. Some of this gets into certain things I can't openly discuss but I have a couple of questions here:

Do you know if Japanese aviation authorities notified of all passengers, both military and civilian, into Yokota AB?

From discussions I've had with people in Japan, I'm not sure how simple it would actually be to get into US records without some kind of specific justification. While I'm sure there would be ample cooperation between the two sets of authorities, it doesn't sound like the TMPD could just waltz into Yokota and start comparing fingerprints. From the conversations I've had with local journalists, if it's occurred to me, this theory will have very much occurred to the TMPD; but the practicalities of *actually* making inquiries on a US air base aren't such a simple matter. Now whether or not those ever took place, I don't know.

Having also spoken to people that have lived on Yokota, I know it is indeed possible to go off-base around Fussa. Do you know if, say, a 15-year-old would have some kind of limit or curfew on time spent off-base in the same way an active serviceman or woman would? Whether or not the gate control knew of the killer's possible egress/ingress on base, that wouldn't necessarily be of any help to the TMPD unless they had a reason to check at the time. And I'm not sure at what point the connection was made re: the sand from Edwards Air Base.

Even if nobody breaths on US air bases without the knowledge of the authorities, how do we know the TMPD made those enquiries?

Either way, this is food for thought, thank you!

do any "service children" go to private schools off base?

 

[acutename]

Thanks, Evilwise.

Rei was the 6-year-old boy. He was the first victim who was asleep in the kids' bedroom (which is next to the bathroom -- the likely intrusion point). I just always found it strange that he would start there unless he simply didn't know the layout of the house and opened the first door he saw.

And Yasuko, the mother, was a cram teacher. Basically an after-school teacher. One of the theories is that the killer, being 15-20 years of age according to the Tokyo PD, was maybe one of her students.

or maybe she told him he was hopeless and did not tutor him... and he was not getting into a good school. Weird to me that he was going through the family paperwork.... did he think he was adopted? Want to steal credentials to hide his identity?

 

[acutename]

Another set of really interesting points, Cryptic -- thanks as ever. Really enjoying our back and forth. And just to play devil's advocate...

It's not a case if whether there is a link to US air bases. There IS inarguably a link to US air bases, in one way or another. Whether it MEANS anything, we don't know. There are, however, big coincidences. For one, there is sand from Edwards in their house. And Yokota, which has its own connection to Edwards, is just 17 miles away.

Taking your points in turn:



I'm not actually sure what was noted about the killer or not when purchasing a knife. I don't think the police have ever commented on that. Is this something you've seen? Would love to read if you could send it my way, if so. In any case, I agree the DNA doesn't tell us anything hard and fast about his mixed ethnicity. That said, it's quite possible, even if he was clearly a 'hafu' to the eye, that he wore a mask while purchasing the knife. In any case, distancing him from a US air base due to DNA is assuming that, say, two Asian-Americans couldn't have a connection to the US military.



Totally agree that this is an interesting point. He must speak Japanese, and as I understand it, the more formal Japanese that Mikio was using in his work documents. So, it's almost certain that the killer has had an exposure to Japanese from an early age. But why that would mean it's unlikely for him to have a connection to a US air base, I'm not sure I follow.



I'm not sure I agree that this points to anything much. Whenever I'm in Japan, I drink green/barley tea and eat string beans too. It's possible it's part of a local guy's diet. Or not. What I DO find interesting is where those string beans and sesame were from. I've spoken to a scientist who's told me that the police would be able to work out exactly where in the world the beans and seeds were grown. That should be enough to piece together whether or not the killer ate that meal from, say, a 7-Eleven, or whether somewhere else such as a canteen.



But it did occur near the base, relatively speaking anyway. Roppongi is about 14km away and Yokota AB is 28km away. In any case, the killer likely had a connection to Soshigaya in *some* way as 5 out of the 10 things he was wearing on him were on sale in the local area. What brought him there, I don't know. As you've seen, one popular theory is the skate park across the road. I've spoken to multiple skateboarders and it sounds as if skate parks weren't easy to come by and street skating was very frowned upon. I don't know whether the killer had anything to do with skating or not but, if he did, he might well gravitate to a place were other kids who were into similar things as him hung out.



Well, he *does* have European DNA, we just don't know how much of that is apparent to the eye. As Angleterre has said, have the TMPD done genealogy? That would help us to know because at the moment what we know about his DNA doesn't tell us a great deal. As for his exposure to US culture, we can't have any way of knowing what that is. Him eating green beans and reading Japanese doesn't prevent him from also eating corndogs and singing along to Hank Williams the week before.

As for being close to the base, he's like an hour away on public transport. In Tokyo terms, given the size of the city, that's not a crazy journey to make. As for his language and where he picks it up, we have no way of knowing. My mother isn't Spanish and my father is but she learned the language and I grew up speaking it with her. Our DNA wouldn't tell that story. And finally, like I've said above, being an American wouldn't automatically make you grab the Coke in the fridge.

All of that to say that while I can't be sure about any of it and that I remain completely open-minded to the killer being a local or something along those lines, I do think one could very plausibly still see a connection to Yokota or even Yokosuka further away.

I think if he frequented that local skate park, the local skaters would have recognized him and ID'd him IMO.