ACTIVE SEARCH JAPAN - Patricia "Pattie" Wu-Murad, 60, US Citizen, on hiking trip Kumano Kodo Trail, didn't arr next stop Osaka, 10 Apr 2023

[slowpoke]

A new lead came into law enforcement from a female hiker on the same trail that Pattie was to hike, Kirk tells The Messenger.


The other hiker, from New York City, reported that two different Japanese men she encountered asked her to come home with them for tea and teach them English.

“She said it made her feel very uncomfortable,” says Kirk.

Family of American Mom Missing in Japan Refuses to Give Up 5 Weeks After She Vanished

Pattie Wu-Murad's husband remains hopeful his wife will be found alive as he celebrates their 33rd wedding anniversary alone.

themessenger.com

On the Help Find Pattie FB page 5 days ago is a post by someone (SB), and in the comments a poster (AK) detailed an experience like this, but she only mentioned one man. It was on the Nakahechi, by a parking lot.

Is it an error on the news report’s part that there was another man, or why wouldn’t this poster have mentioned the other encounter in her post?

At any rate, worth it for the police to check it out. She had some good details that would help locate this individual.

 

[annpats]

It's one thing approaching lone women hikers and making them feel uncomfortable with questions etc. but it is quite another to make them disappear, as in the case of Pattie.

Did Pattie have an inter-action that went wrong?

Why did hers go completely wrong?

Did they knock her unconscious and carry Pattie to a car?

Are these Japanese men hassling women just the men getting cheap kicks.... or are these men something more sinister?

 

[Cedars]

It's one thing approaching lone women hikers and making them feel uncomfortable with questions etc. but it is quite another to make them disappear, as in the case of Pattie.

Did Pattie have an inter-action that went wrong?

Why did hers go completely wrong?

Did they knock her unconscious and carry Pattie to a car?

Are these Japanese men hassling women just the men getting cheap kicks.... or are these men something more sinister?

I agree. It's unfortunately, tiresomely, not uncommon for a travelling single woman to get noticed/invited by various men, who, IMO, are testing their luck to see whether they can pick you up. It's both locals and other tourists, and even when you think you're far too old for someone to bother. In fact, they may see themselves as giving you a compliment with their interest.

But I agree, it's rarely aimed towards harming the woman.

JMO

 

[lindylou]

I have been considering abduction for quite some time. Is someone holding her?

 

[justtrish]

I have been considering abduction for quite some time. Is someone holding her?

It is a thought that has crossed my mind more as the time goes on. I love to hike and since I've gotten more into hiking, I pay more attention to the missing hiker/injured hiker posts. I am always trying to better prepare myself for what I might encounter or to understand what problems I could face and what to watch out for. I think if she was hiking on that trail she would have been found. It seems pretty straight forward as far as point A to point B goes and if that has been covered over and over I don't think an accidental fall is likely. I also don't see that her getting lost is really possible, unless she left the trail for some reason. The fact she wasn't spotted on the cameras suggests she didn't make it to that trail and the other hikers/runners that also didn't see her either. She seems like she was prepared for this leg with the reservation for that night and also sharing with the other hiker her plan. He also had the same plan so him not encountering her a short time later makes me wonder if something prevented her from getting on the trail after the innkeeper saw her off. That something could be someone needing assistance or even abducting her from the spot the innkeeper saw her off and the start of the trail.

I'd like to know where the cameras were on the trail and once getting on the trail, how long was it until the section that was on a road. IS that section where the cameras are located?

It's just baffling to me in this one because we know her route. We know her plan and she left that morning and nothing was off track. Then with all the searching nothing has been seen of her. Some of these cases the trail is uncertain or the exact plan isn't known and the search area might be massive because there are many trails that could be the one they hiked, etc. This one seems it should be easy IF she had an accident on this trail. This is why I'm leaning more toward something happening not on the trail.

 

[Seni]

We know Pattie checked into a lodge with her passport number and wrote "US" on top.

Am presuming that she took a copy of passport with her whilst trekking.

No mention I can find of where the original might be? Or if presumed missing?

 

[ZaZara]

We know Pattie checked into a lodge with her passport number and wrote "US" on top.

Am presuming that she took a copy of passport with her whilst trekking.

No mention I can find of where the original might be? Or if presumed missing?

Not likely that she was hiking with a copy of her passport. An official ID is required for identification, also at lodgings. A copy cannot replace an official ID.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

It is a thought that has crossed my mind more as the time goes on. I love to hike and since I've gotten more into hiking, I pay more attention to the missing hiker/injured hiker posts. I am always trying to better prepare myself for what I might encounter or to understand what problems I could face and what to watch out for. I think if she was hiking on that trail she would have been found. It seems pretty straight forward as far as point A to point B goes and if that has been covered over and over I don't think an accidental fall is likely. I also don't see that her getting lost is really possible, unless she left the trail for some reason. The fact she wasn't spotted on the cameras suggests she didn't make it to that trail and the other hikers/runners that also didn't see her either. She seems like she was prepared for this leg with the reservation for that night and also sharing with the other hiker her plan. He also had the same plan so him not encountering her a short time later makes me wonder if something prevented her from getting on the trail after the innkeeper saw her off. That something could be someone needing assistance or even abducting her from the spot the innkeeper saw her off and the start of the trail.

I'd like to know where the cameras were on the trail and once getting on the trail, how long was it until the section that was on a road. IS that section where the cameras are located?

It's just baffling to me in this one because we know her route. We know her plan and she left that morning and nothing was off track. Then with all the searching nothing has been seen of her. Some of these cases the trail is uncertain or the exact plan isn't known and the search area might be massive because there are many trails that could be the one they hiked, etc. This one seems it should be easy IF she had an accident on this trail. This is why I'm leaning more toward something happening not on the trail.

The walk from the guesthouse to the traihead is only about 0.7km. The village has one road in and out, and only a few houses. It's not impossible that something happened to Pattie before she reached the trail, but it seems so improbable. If something happened to Pattie on the road, I think it's more likely to have been on the 8km road section after she passed over the mountain; but then we have to explain why she wasn't seen by anyone.

The trail runners were seen on CCTV as they entered Miura-guchi at about 8:00am. So although there doesn't appear to have been CCTV in the village itself, or on the route to the trailhead, it does appear there is CCTV showing anyone who enters or leaves the village via the road. If Pattie had been shown leaving by the road we would surely know it, and I would hope LE have either traced or tried to trace any vehicles that were seen entering or leaving.

There were, according to Pattie's family, a number of CCTV cameras on the 8km section; one was turned away from the road and another had been erased/overwritten by the time they asked to see it; on the third, at a Post Office where the trail runners were recorded, there was never any sign of Pattie. I'm not sure where along the 8km road section the Post Office is located, which might be important in determining if something could have happened to Pattie after she left the mountain but before she reached the Post Office.

I don't think much of the fact that the Australian hiker didn't see Pattie. He was two hours behind her and assuming nothing had slowed Pattie down, she would already have been half to two thirds of the way up the mountain by the time he started. He probably wouldn't have caught her anyway.

On the other hand the trail runners absolutely should have passed Pattie on the mountain. But the trail runners were presumably taking the most direct route without stopping to see the sights; most of the sights along the route are a small distance off the track, so if Pattie was seeing one of the sights at the moment they passed her, she might have been out of their view.

Unfortunately, in terms of trying to find the answers, not being seen on the mountain doesn't guarantee Pattie never went over it.

 

[Kimpossible31]

What all, if anything, do we know about the guesthouse owner? From the night prior to her going missing. I’m stuck on her never starting the hike.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Just a note that may be of interest: Google Maps has updated most of its Street View images in the relevant areas. Miura-guchi, the 8km stretch of road into Totsukawa Onsen, etc.. All updated to images taken in April 2023, possibly due to the publicity from Pattie's disappearance.

These images were last updated 10 years ago and quite a lot has changed in the new images. I'm still going through them.

I believe the Post Office where the trail runners were recorded (and Pattie wasn't) may have been this Post Office in Shigesato, about halfway along the 8km road. You can even see what appears to be a camera on the building.

 

[ZaZara]

The walk from the guesthouse to the traihead is only about 0.7km. The village has one road in and out, and only a few houses. It's not impossible that something happened to Pattie before she reached the trail, but it seems so improbable. If something happened to Pattie on the road, I think it's more likely to have been on the 8km road section after she passed over the mountain; but then we have to explain why she wasn't seen by anyone.

The trail runners were seen on CCTV as they entered Miura-guchi at about 8:00am. So although there doesn't appear to have been CCTV in the village itself, or on the route to the trailhead, it does appear there is CCTV showing anyone who enters or leaves the village via the road. If Pattie had been shown leaving by the road we would surely know it, and I would hope LE have either traced or tried to trace any vehicles that were seen entering or leaving.

There were, according to Pattie's family, a number of CCTV cameras on the 8km section; one was turned away from the road and another had been erased/overwritten by the time they asked to see it; on the third, at a Post Office where the trail runners were recorded, there was never any sign of Pattie. I'm not sure where along the 8km road section the Post Office is located, which might be important in determining if something could have happened to Pattie after she left the mountain but before she reached the Post Office.

I don't think much of the fact that the Australian hiker didn't see Pattie. He was two hours behind her and assuming nothing had slowed Pattie down, she would already have been half to two thirds of the way up the mountain by the time he started. He probably wouldn't have caught her anyway.

On the other hand the trail runners absolutely should have passed Pattie on the mountain. But the trail runners were presumably taking the most direct route without stopping to see the sights; most of the sights along the route are a small distance off the track, so if Pattie was seeing one of the sights at the moment they passed her, she might have been out of their view.

Unfortunately, in terms of trying to find the answers, not being seen on the mountain doesn't guarantee Pattie never went over it.

If the trailrunners did not see Pattie because she was sightseeing off the track, this would mean that Pattie had slowed down her hike and this in turn would increase the probability that the Australian hiker would catch up with her.

IMO this is a case of doing the math and hoping you have the right variables. Person A leaves at time X and walks with speed S. Persons B, C, D leave at time X+Y and run with speed H. At what point do B, C and D overtake person A?

Not sure that points of interest are off track, or that far off track btw. There is a rest hut at the top mentioned in the description by Randomwire but the trailrunners would have overtaken Pattie before that point.

That said, if foul play is involved in this disappearance, it is far more likely that this happened near buildings and the roads. Places with people, buildings to hide someone and easy means of transport like a car or a small van. The road on the other side of the pass comes to mind. Perhaps Pattie did make it quickly over the pass. Yet somehow I'm having trouble imagining this, maybe that is me, because IMO she was a slow and steady walker and the trail was more demanding than what she had walked before (Caminos and Shikoko trail).

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

If the trailrunners did not see Pattie because she was sightseeing off the track, this would mean that Pattie had slowed down her hike and this in turn would increase the probability that the Australian hiker would catch up with her.

IMO this is a case of doing the math and hoping you have the right variables. Person A leaves at time X and walks with speed S. Persons B, C, D leave at time X+Y and run with speed H. At what point do B, C and D overtake person A?

Not sure that points of interest are off track, or that far off track btw. There is a rest hut at the top mentioned in the description by Randomwire but the trailrunners would have overtaken Pattie before that point.

That said, if foul play is involved in this disappearance, it is far more likely that this happened near buildings and the roads. Places with people, buildings to hide someone and easy means of transport like a car or a small van. The road on the other side of the pass comes to mind. Perhaps Pattie did make it quickly over the pass. Yet somehow I'm having trouble imagining this, maybe that is me, because IMO she was a slow and steady walker and the trail was more demanding than what she had walked before (Caminos and Shikoko trail).

The Australian hiker was about two hours later starting; even if he walked faster, and even if Pattie stopped to look at some of the sights, that's a lot of ground to make up. And it assumes the Australian didn't stop to look at any of the sights himself, which would have slowed him down also.

The problem is that we really have no sure idea of what the variables were that day. I will gladly admit the Australian hiker could have caught up with Pattie if certain variables were true, but I think it would be wrong to assume she can't have been on the trail because he never saw her.

I really wish I could remember where I saw it, but I'm sure I saw something that said the Sanju-cho Spring is quite some way down the side of the mountain, off the trail; the spring is about two-thirds of the way up the mountain. If that is true, in dense forest the spring might be far enough away to take a person out of sight.

Having said that, I've been looking at Google's newly-updated images and the roads around the trailhead and trailexit are really confusing. I need to examine the maps a little more, but I can easily see someone going the wrong way. I can't see them disappearing completely the way Pattie has, but getting lost... absolutely.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

This is what I've come up with based on the new Google Maps images.



This is Miura-guchi from where Pattie set off that morning. The red dots are the original line of Route 733, hugging close to the mountainside, but the red dots ringed in yellow are a part of the road that appears to have been bypassed by the road marked in blue. The trail is marked in green. It looks like the red/yellow part of the road is now only used by locals who live on that part of the road, and importantly, by pilgrims who have to walk down that part of the road to reach the trailhead. The bypass appears to have been there for a long time; it was already there in the images from 2013. (Link 2023 / Link 2013) If you take the bypass you go under the footbridge that leads to the trailhead, and there are two road bridges that lead into the forest. (Link) I suspect this area could get quite confusing for someone who had never been there before, and I can see why people might have trouble finding the entrance to the bridge and trailhead.

Could a person get so lost that they would disappear the way Pattie has? I doubt it, but who knows.



If we assume for the moment that Pattie did make it to the trailhead and did make it over the mountain, the winding roads around Nishinaka, where Pattie would have left the mountain trail and come back out onto the road, are also confusing. The blue dots mark the route through the trees, the red dots mark the road. At Point 1 you leave the mountain trail past an old house, coming out onto the winding mountain road. (Link) You travel down the road some distance before coming to a sign at Point 2, where you leave the road again down what appears to be quite a steep slope. (Link) You then travel through the forest until you reach Point 3, where you're back on the road again. (Link) You then walk up the road a short distance before coming to these stone steps leading back into the forest at Point 4. (Link) From there you walk through the forest before coming out for the final time onto Route 425 at Point 5 near Nishinaka. (Link)

That mountain road, and having to find so many entrances and exits through the trees, looks like it could get pretty confusing. And if foul play did occur, IMO it's somewhere that a person could be abducted from very easily.

 

[annpats]

If the trailrunners did not see Pattie because she was sightseeing off the track, this would mean that Pattie had slowed down her hike and this in turn would increase the probability that the Australian hiker would catch up with her.u

Is there anything to sight -see off the track?!
I wouldn't have thought so.
It would encourage dangerous behaviour to go off trail.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Is there anything to sight -see off the track?!
I wouldn't have thought so.
It would encourage dangerous behaviour to go off trail.

It's all signposted, but the water spring, at least, is a little way down the mountain side off the main track.

If you go to Youtube and find an account called "tobotoboaruku3432" you can search for his series of videos entitled "Kumano Kodo Kohech Travel on foot." He walked the entire Kohechi trail, but videos 9 through 16 show the Miura-toge section. It's 5+ hours of him walking the entire trail. You see everything.

To put it bluntly: images and Google Maps DO NOT tell the story. It looks insanely dangerous and I wouldn't be attempting it.

 

[justtrish]

The walk from the guesthouse to the traihead is only about 0.7km. The village has one road in and out, and only a few houses. It's not impossible that something happened to Pattie before she reached the trail, but it seems so improbable. If something happened to Pattie on the road, I think it's more likely to have been on the 8km road section after she passed over the mountain; but then we have to explain why she wasn't seen by anyone.

The trail runners were seen on CCTV as they entered Miura-guchi at about 8:00am. So although there doesn't appear to have been CCTV in the village itself, or on the route to the trailhead, it does appear there is CCTV showing anyone who enters or leaves the village via the road. If Pattie had been shown leaving by the road we would surely know it, and I would hope LE have either traced or tried to trace any vehicles that were seen entering or leaving.

There were, according to Pattie's family, a number of CCTV cameras on the 8km section; one was turned away from the road and another had been erased/overwritten by the time they asked to see it; on the third, at a Post Office where the trail runners were recorded, there was never any sign of Pattie. I'm not sure where along the 8km road section the Post Office is located, which might be important in determining if something could have happened to Pattie after she left the mountain but before she reached the Post Office.

I don't think much of the fact that the Australian hiker didn't see Pattie. He was two hours behind her and assuming nothing had slowed Pattie down, she would already have been half to two thirds of the way up the mountain by the time he started. He probably wouldn't have caught her anyway.

On the other hand the trail runners absolutely should have passed Pattie on the mountain. But the trail runners were presumably taking the most direct route without stopping to see the sights; most of the sights along the route are a small distance off the track, so if Pattie was seeing one of the sights at the moment they passed her, she might have been out of their view.

Unfortunately, in terms of trying to find the answers, not being seen on the mountain doesn't guarantee Pattie never went over it.

Thank you for this information. I think it helps me have a better understanding of the cameras and the timing of some of the people coming through in relation to when Pattie would have been or should have been seen if things were going along as she planned them.

 

[bettyboop]

It's all signposted, but the water spring, at least, is a little way down the mountain side off the main track.

If you go to Youtube and find an account called "tobotoboaruku3432" you can search for his series of videos entitled "Kumano Kodo Kohech Travel on foot." He walked the entire Kohechi trail, but videos 9 through 16 show the Miura-toge section. It's 5+ hours of him walking the entire trail. You see everything.

To put it bluntly: images and Google Maps DO NOT tell the story. It looks insanely dangerous and I wouldn't be attempting it.

Thank you for telling us about the Youtube channel. I'm off to check it out!!!

 

[neesaki]

This is what I've come up with based on the new Google Maps images.

View attachment 423521

This is Miura-guchi from where Pattie set off that morning. The red dots are the original line of Route 733, hugging close to the mountainside, but the red dots ringed in yellow are a part of the road that appears to have been bypassed by the road marked in blue. The trail is marked in green. It looks like the red/yellow part of the road is now only used by locals who live on that part of the road, and importantly, by pilgrims who have to walk down that part of the road to reach the trailhead. The bypass appears to have been there for a long time; it was already there in the images from 2013. (Link 2023 / Link 2013) If you take the bypass you go under the footbridge that leads to the trailhead, and there are two road bridges that lead into the forest. (Link) I suspect this area could get quite confusing for someone who had never been there before, and I can see why people might have trouble finding the entrance to the bridge and trailhead.

Could a person get so lost that they would disappear the way Pattie has? I doubt it, but who knows.

View attachment 423522

If we assume for the moment that Pattie did make it to the trailhead and did make it over the mountain, the winding roads around Nishinaka, where Pattie would have left the mountain trail and come back out onto the road, are also confusing. The blue dots mark the route through the trees, the red dots mark the road. At Point 1 you leave the mountain trail past an old house, coming out onto the winding mountain road. (Link) You travel down the road some distance before coming to a sign at Point 2, where you leave the road again down what appears to be quite a steep slope. (Link) You then travel through the forest until you reach Point 3, where you're back on the road again. (Link) You then walk up the road a short distance before coming to these stone steps leading back into the forest at Point 4. (Link) From there you walk through the forest before coming out for the final time onto Route 425 at Point 5 near Nishinaka. (Link)

That mountain road, and having to find so many entrances and exits through the trees, looks like it could get pretty confusing. And if foul play did occur, IMO it's somewhere that a person could be abducted from very easily.

Thank you so much for this. I’ve been quite lost thus far, and had a very hard time visualizing the area.

 

[neesaki]

Just a note that may be of interest: Google Maps has updated most of its Street View images in the relevant areas. Miura-guchi, the 8km stretch of road into Totsukawa Onsen, etc.. All updated to images taken in April 2023, possibly due to the publicity from Pattie's disappearance.

These images were last updated 10 years ago and quite a lot has changed in the new images. I'm still going through them.

I believe the Post Office where the trail runners were recorded (and Pattie wasn't) may have been this Post Office in Shigesato, about halfway along the 8km road. You can even see what appears to be a camera on the building.

Earlier, I went down the road a ways and saw that there appears to have been some type of road const going on. If there were construction workers at that time I wonder if they were questioned.

 

[LadyL]

It's all signposted, but the water spring, at least, is a little way down the mountain side off the main track.

If you go to Youtube and find an account called "tobotoboaruku3432" you can search for his series of videos entitled "Kumano Kodo Kohech Travel on foot." He walked the entire Kohechi trail, but videos 9 through 16 show the Miura-toge section. It's 5+ hours of him walking the entire trail. You see everything.

To put it bluntly: images and Google Maps DO NOT tell the story. It looks insanely dangerous and I wouldn't be attempting it.

well that's what I thought but someone said the dangerous spots that are shown are not representative of the entire trail

did you watch the whole 5 hours or more?