JB's picture in the laundry room

[tipper]

Because that's how LE does things. Just trying to trip up PR. Trying to confuse her with really meaningless information they have probably already explained away. See post #lucky 13.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3079093/

Police: "If I told you right now that we have — in the process of being examined — trace evidence that appears to link you to the death of JonBenet, what would you tell me?"
Patsy: "That’s totally impossible. Go re-test."
Police: "How is it impossible?"
Patsy: "I did not kill my child. I didn’t have a thing to do with it."
Police: "I’m talking about scientific evidence."
Patsy: "I don’t give a flying flip how scientific it is. Go back to the damn drawing board. I didn’t do it. John Ramsey didn’t do it, and we don’t have a clue of anybody who did do it. Quit screwing around asking me about things that are ridiculous and let’s find the person that did this."



"It’s a common investigative technique to suggest to somebody that you have more evidence than maybe you really do in order to try to get them to confess," says Demuth.

 

[sissi]

21 THOMAS HANEY: Did you take some

22 photographs of JonBenet in the basement laundry

23 room?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

25 TRIP DeMUTH: You had presents in

0186

1 the basement laundry room, right?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

3 TRIP DeMUTH: So you wrapped

4 presents in the basement laundry room, right?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

6 TRIP DeMUTH: So you were down in

7 the basement laundry room pretty often?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Depending on what

9 time of year it was, yeah, uh-hum.

10 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you remember

11 photographs being -- photographs of JonBenet

12 being in there?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the

14 laundry room?

15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs

16 of her located in the laundry room?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, in the laundry

18 room, oh. I don't know, there was a bunch of

19 stuff, I mean wrapping stuff and everything. I

20 don't remember any photographs.

21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is there any reason

22 why there would be photographs of JonBenet

23 located in the laundry room?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Were there --

25 I mean, did somebody find them there?

0187

1 TRIP DeMUTH: If there were, would

2 that be out of place for you?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: It would seem to be

4 out of place. I kept wrapping materials and

5 sometimes I worked, wrapping station, Christmas

6 paper and --

7 TRIP DeMUTH: Would -- who else had

8 access to the laundry room, who else would go in

9 there? I know everybody would have access, but

10 who else would use it? Would the boys play in

11 there? Would John go down there?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean anybody

13 could, but I mean the boys could come down and

14 go in the train room, we had the train set up.

15 In the far back in through there, you know. Not

16 in the laundry, really, area.

17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody besides

18 you use that laundry room?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometimes Linda

20 would wash, if we were washing comforters or

21 something, because those were big heavy-duty

22 laundry machines, she'd take the things in

23 there, rugs and things, and wash them down

24 there.

25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.

0188

1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall

2 taking a photo of her down there?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)

4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing

5 something really cutesy or something, would you

6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the

8 laundry room?

9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.


http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

I am more confused, first he says NO to Patsy when she asked if he meant pictures taken in the laundry room, then he suggests cutesy pictures taken in that room????

 

[tipper]

Thanks for the link. I've added it to my word file of the interview.

It is two differrent people asking the questions but it's hard to figure out what they are looking for:

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the
14 laundry room?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs
16 of her located in the laundry room?
_______________________________

1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing
5 something really cutesy or something, would you
6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the
8 laundry room?
9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No

 

[aussiesheila]

To start with Thomas Haney asks a question meaning "did you ever photograph JonBenet when she was in the laundry room?"

Then Trip DeMuth follows up with a question meaning "did you ever photograph JonBenet and then take the developed photograph down to the laundry room and leave them there?"

And poor Patsy gets blamed for giving a confused answer.

 

[Zman]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3079093/

Police: "If I told you right now that we have — in the process of being examined — trace evidence that appears to link you to the death of JonBenet, what would you tell me?"
Patsy: "That’s totally impossible. Go re-test."
Police: "How is it impossible?"
Patsy: "I did not kill my child. I didn’t have a thing to do with it."
Police: "I’m talking about scientific evidence."
Patsy: "I don’t give a flying flip how scientific it is. Go back to the damn drawing board. I didn’t do it. John Ramsey didn’t do it, and we don’t have a clue of anybody who did do it. Quit screwing around asking me about things that are ridiculous and let’s find the person that did this."



"It’s a common investigative technique to suggest to somebody that you have more evidence than maybe you really do in order to try to get them to confess," says Demuth.

Also from the same interview comes this grain of wisdom from TD.
MISTAKES MADE BY THE POLICE

Former Boulder deputy district attorney Trip Demuth spent two years investigating this case who said the focus of the case should have been on the evidence not theories.

Trip Demuth: “There were a lot of mistakes that were made. One of the mistakes was the focus on theories, as opposed to just focusing on the evidence and following leads no matter what direction it took you.”

 

[Camper]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3079093/

Police: "If I told you right now that we have — in the process of being examined — trace evidence that appears to link you to the death of JonBenet, what would you tell me?"
Patsy: "That’s totally impossible. Go re-test."
Police: "How is it impossible?"
Patsy: "I did not kill my child. I didn’t have a thing to do with it."
Police: "I’m talking about scientific evidence."
Patsy: "I don’t give a flying flip how scientific it is. Go back to the damn drawing board. I didn’t do it. John Ramsey didn’t do it, and we don’t have a clue of anybody who did do it. Quit screwing around asking me about things that are ridiculous and let’s find the person that did this."



Hmmm, it appears to me at least that this would have been the perfect time for PR and JR to offer to take a lie detector test. If not at that time, then surely when the National Enquirer offered them One Million Dollars to take a lie detector test.

So much at stake for them at this moment in time when PR exploded, it was a major turning point in going down the swift and steady decline, for the common man continuing to think that one of the R's did it. It has hung over them like an old blanket for nearly 9 years.

John Walsh knew better and so did Polly Klaas father. JR said as I recall that he would 'feel offended' if asked to take one. Am I remembering that correctly, cannot remember IF he was asked to take one, or if his offended remark was made in answer to a question about IF he had been asked to take one ?. Walsh and Klaas were not asked either as I recall they just offered up to take one, when they realized that LE focus was on them.


.

 

[UKGuy]

To start with Thomas Haney asks a question meaning "did you ever photograph JonBenet when she was in the laundry room?"

Then Trip DeMuth follows up with a question meaning "did you ever photograph JonBenet and then take the developed photograph down to the laundry room and leave them there?"

And poor Patsy gets blamed for giving a confused answer.

I would interpret this line of questioning as suggesting amongst some pictures of JonBenet, found somewhere in the Ramsey household, at least one had been taken in the basement. So possibly they were attempting to link the photographs found in the basement with one or more with JonBenet as a subject located in the basement that may have been found outside the basement.

The reason for this is Patsy had already stated she had access to that area regularly, so the questioning was not to place her anywhere, anytime. More likely it was to flush out who it was that had an interest in taking JonBenet's picture, and more particularly, at the location where her dead body was discovered!

 

[tipper]

[...]
So much at stake for them at this moment in time when PR exploded, it was a major turning point in going down the swift and steady decline, for the common man continuing to think that one of the R's did it. It has hung over them like an old blanket for nearly 9 years.

John Walsh knew better and so did Polly Klaas father. JR said as I recall that he would 'feel offended' if asked to take one. Am I remembering that correctly, cannot remember IF he was asked to take one, or if his offended remark was made in answer to a question about IF he had been asked to take one ?. Walsh and Klaas were not asked either as I recall they just offered up to take one, when they realized that LE focus was on them.


.

On Jennifer Wilbank's fiance:

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/cat_true_crime_domestic.html
." Later reports indicate John was losing it a little behind the scenes, snapping at friends and family. That was normal. John Mason also admitted freely in interviews after Wilbanks showed up safely in New Mexico that while he understood that the boyfriend or spouse is often the first person suspected in the disappearance and/or murder of a woman, it still made him angry. As it would me, or any other non-psychopathic man.



From Small Sacrifices, Ann Rule, p.316

Det. Ray Broderick (an expert on interviewing) about his interview with Diane Downs: "She didn’t resent my suggestion she might be capable of shooting her children – an innocent woman’s response would almost certainly have been one of hostility, protesting."

Added: Wilbank's fiance refused a polygraph and I noticed ST wasn't saying 'Bring it on" when asked about taking one during his deposition.

 

[sissi]

Thanks for the link. I've added it to my word file of the interview.

It is two differrent people asking the questions but it's hard to figure out what they are looking for:

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the
14 laundry room?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs
16 of her located in the laundry room?
_______________________________

1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing
5 something really cutesy or something, would you
6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the
8 laundry room?
9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No

Could this be nothing more than "one" was more informed than the other, and the "second", Haney, was following up with his own questions after misunderstanding Demuth's. Sitting there, taking notes, this may have been an area he just simply "got wrong"?

There is a lot of information within these transcripts that point toward an intruder.

I found it interesting, the in depth questioning concerning the flushing of a toilet. This could suggest a person hiding in the house, entering perhaps on other occasions using the toilet and not flushing to avoid making noise.
Clearly it seems they have found blood on her pillowcase, as they question the possibility of nosebleeds.
Again , the subject of pineapple is approached with no certainty as to whether it was pineapple or not.
Finding an invitation to a New Years eve party,outside. Does this suggest someone wanted to pick up that invitation for some purpose?
pry marks...scuffs..glass..unusual placement of "things"...clues??

 

[trixie]

Sissi when I read that transcript in it's entirety it gave me chills. I've always been a PDI but while reading all the new stuff in there I had to consider the possibility also that someone was living down in the basement without them knowing, perhaps coming in and out or hiding when someone was down there. Just think about the opportunities he/she would have to overhear things like "good southern common sense" and the like. There have been movies made about things such as this. It happens. Creeeepy!

 

[Cranberry]

So which is it? Photos of her that are located in the laundry room? Of photos taken of her while she was in the laundry room?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the
14 laundry room?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs
16 of her located in the laundry room?
[...]


v1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing
5 something really cutesy or something, would you
6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the
8 laundry room?
9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

Maybe the question concerns more about a camera than a photo? I don't recall reading where the camera with the Christmas Day photos was located before the film was emptied for LE.

 

[Eagle1]

Sissi when I read that transcript in it's entirety it gave me chills. I've always been a PDI but while reading all the new stuff in there I had to consider the possibility also that someone was living down in the basement without them knowing, perhaps coming in and out or hiding when someone was down there. Just think about the opportunities he/she would have to overhear things like "good southern common sense" and the like. There have been movies made about things such as this. It happens. Creeeepy!

Wow, there's an idea none of us ever thought of before, somebody possibly living there? Like the guy sleeping in JonBenet's bed at Charlevoix! Could be, probably. He'd always have to watch for their bedroom light to go out before he could go in? The alarm was never set. I'm flabbergasted that we're still getting new info and new ideas after all this time. I never heard of this picture before. First reaction was that maybe the perp was carrying it around and put it down to get the nightgown out of the dryer, then forgot and left it there.

Here's another quote, a copy/paste: "The reason for this is Patsy had already stated she had access to that area regularly, so the questioning was not to place her anywhere, anytime. More likely it was to flush out who it was that had an interest in taking JonBenet's picture, and more particularly, at the location where her dead body was discovered!" Hmn, yes.

But it wasn't actually MADE in the laundry room, and one of the questionners was just confused, correct?

 

[narlacat]

Now the intruder was living there???
And I thought some of the borg's theories were over the top!!

 

[Nehemiah]

But it wasn't actually MADE in the laundry room, and one of the questionners was just confused, correct?

We don't know the answer to that.

 

[UKGuy]

I suspect the questioning about the photographs was calculated to be ambiguous.

Patsy had already stated that she occassionally used the laundry room, and had prepared xmas presents down in the basement.

The police are suggesting they are in possession of a number of photographs, one of which was taken when JonBenet was in the laundry room, but the importance is that they are probably all photographs with JonBenet as the subject.

So the questioning is attempting to elicit two pieces of information one which is designed to eliminate Patsy as the person who has such an enthusiasm for photographing JonBenet. The other question is an attempt to identify the photographer's identity.

Underlying the police interviewers assumptions may be that the person who so avidly photographed JonBenet alive may also have taken nude photographs which are located somewhere else? And that this same person wished to photograph her deceased wearing her Barbie Nightdress.

This question is not only ambiguous in this respect but is also pointed.
v1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?

The interviewers theory is obviously that the suspect is a pedophile, and that the basement was used for pedophiliac purposes. A known characteristic of pedophiles is that they photograph children both nude and clothed, and then share these photographs with other pedophiles in their closed ring! If you take this assumption and add in the other items found in the basement included the semen stained item, then you may have the outline of a pedophile using photographs of JonBenet for sexual stimulus?

Many of the photographs of JonBenet are likely to be risque, this is unavoidable since the suspect is likely to have had access to many of JonBenet's pageant pictures. In her pageant images JonBenet is seen to be dressed beyond her years, and some are considered to be sexually provocative. Another feature is that she is wearing makeup, 6-years old and painted!

Where and why at such a young age would JonBenet have developed such a focus for dressing up, wearing makeup, and posing for the camera?

The answer the police came up with is that JonBenet may have been a victim of a pedophile ring, and that is why she was killed!

 

[BlueCrab]

I suspect the questioning about the photographs was calculated to be ambiguous.

Patsy had already stated that she occassionally used the laundry room, and had prepared xmas presents down in the basement.

The police are suggesting they are in possession of a number of photographs, one of which was taken when JonBenet was in the laundry room, but the importance is that they are probably all photographs with JonBenet as the subject.

So the questioning is attempting to elicit two pieces of information one which is designed to eliminate Patsy as the person who has such an enthusiasm for photographing JonBenet. The other question is an attempt to identify the photographer's identity.

Underlying the police interviewers assumptions may be that the person who so avidly photographed JonBenet alive may also have taken nude photographs which are located somewhere else? And that this same person wished to photograph her deceased wearing her Barbie Nightdress.

This question is not only ambiguous in this respect but is also pointed.
v1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?

The interviewers theory is obviously that the suspect is a pedophile, and that the basement was used for pedophiliac purposes. A known characteristic of pedophiles is that they photograph children both nude and clothed, and then share these photographs with other pedophiles in their closed ring! If you take this assumption and add in the other items found in the basement included the semen stained item, then you may have the outline of a pedophile using photographs of JonBenet for sexual stimulus?

Many of the photographs of JonBenet are likely to be risque, this is unavoidable since the suspect is likely to have had access to many of JonBenet's pageant pictures. In her pageant images JonBenet is seen to be dressed beyond her years, and some are considered to be sexually provocative. Another feature is that she is wearing makeup, 6-years old and painted!

Where and why at such a young age would JonBenet have developed such a focus for dressing up, wearing makeup, and posing for the camera?

The answer the police came up with is that JonBenet may have been a victim of a pedophile ring, and that is why she was killed!

UKGuy,

Interesting comment you made about JonBenet being photographed "down there". Yes, it could be interpreted as a photo taken down there in the basement laundry room, or it could be interpreted as a photo taken down there below JonBenet's waist.

Also, please be aware that among the Ramsey photos developed by the police was one in which someone was holding a stun gun.

Edited to add that it was unclear where the photo of the person holding a stun gun was obtained. It was apparently a crime scene photo of a photo. From the 1998 interviews:

TOM HANEY: "The next group of photos are marked 7-15; 7-16; 7-17; and 7-18, and can you identify what that is?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No. Someone with a flashlight?"

TOM HANEY: "NO."

PATSY RAMSEY: "No?"

TRIP DEMUTH: "Okay. Actually, that is a stun gun. I think you and John and various people from the DA's office had some discussion -- "

PATSY RAMSEY: "Yeah."

TRIP DEMUTH: " -- last July about about a stun gun."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Right. I don't understand that."

BlueCrab

 

[Zman]

I suspect the questioning about the photographs was calculated to be ambiguous.

Patsy had already stated that she occassionally used the laundry room, and had prepared xmas presents down in the basement.

The police are suggesting they are in possession of a number of photographs, one of which was taken when JonBenet was in the laundry room, but the importance is that they are probably all photographs with JonBenet as the subject.

So the questioning is attempting to elicit two pieces of information one which is designed to eliminate Patsy as the person who has such an enthusiasm for photographing JonBenet. The other question is an attempt to identify the photographer's identity.

Underlying the police interviewers assumptions may be that the person who so avidly photographed JonBenet alive may also have taken nude photographs which are located somewhere else? And that this same person wished to photograph her deceased wearing her Barbie Nightdress.

This question is not only ambiguous in this respect but is also pointed.
v1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?

The interviewers theory is obviously that the suspect is a pedophile, and that the basement was used for pedophiliac purposes. A known characteristic of pedophiles is that they photograph children both nude and clothed, and then share these photographs with other pedophiles in their closed ring! If you take this assumption and add in the other items found in the basement included the semen stained item, then you may have the outline of a pedophile using photographs of JonBenet for sexual stimulus?

Many of the photographs of JonBenet are likely to be risque, this is unavoidable since the suspect is likely to have had access to many of JonBenet's pageant pictures. In her pageant images JonBenet is seen to be dressed beyond her years, and some are considered to be sexually provocative. Another feature is that she is wearing makeup, 6-years old and painted!

Where and why at such a young age would JonBenet have developed such a focus for dressing up, wearing makeup, and posing for the camera?

The answer the police came up with is that JonBenet may have been a victim of a pedophile ring, and that is why she was killed!

Talk about jumping to conclusions. How can you use the word "obviously" seriously UkGuy. "down there" implys no such thing.

Is this just a fourm for wild stories and speculation or serious discussion of the facts.

"Down there" OBVIOUSLY refers to the laundry room and not a area of JBR's body.

Lets not forget that T.D. admits to not even seeing the pictures.

 

[Toltec]

Now the intruder was living there???
And I thought some of the borg's theories were over the top!!

Perhaps Kato Kaelin was living "down there".

The photo of JonBenet taken in the laundry room must belong to the Ramseys because it was found in the Ramsey home. I don't believe a photographer came into the home to photograph JonBenet and leave his photos.

If anyone is interested, not only was Patsy using the laundry room to wrap presents...she was using the wine cellar to hide them too. She claims the last time she entered the wine cellar was Christmas eve...when she retrieved the presents.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

Interesting comment you made about JonBenet being photographed "down there". Yes, it could be interpreted as a photo taken down there in the basement laundry room, or it could be interpreted as a photo taken down there below JonBenet's waist.

Also, please be aware that among the Ramsey photos developed by the police was one in which someone was holding a stun gun.

Edited to add that it was unclear where the photo of the person holding a stun gun was obtained. It was apparently a crime scene photo of a photo. From the 1998 interviews:

TOM HANEY: "The next group of photos are marked 7-15; 7-16; 7-17; and 7-18, and can you identify what that is?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No. Someone with a flashlight?"

TOM HANEY: "NO."

PATSY RAMSEY: "No?"

TRIP DEMUTH: "Okay. Actually, that is a stun gun. I think you and John and various people from the DA's office had some discussion -- "

PATSY RAMSEY: "Yeah."

TRIP DEMUTH: " -- last July about about a stun gun."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Right. I don't understand that."

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

I think whichever interpretation you place on "down there", the interviewers did consider it important to attempt to identify the person who would consider the basement an appropriate setting for photographing a 6-year old girl? This along with their statements regarding prior sexual molestation of JonBenet, suggests that their suspect was considered to be a pedophile!

Thanks for the stun gun information, I just wonder why the DA needed to discuss this with them? They had not been charged, the picture would be entered as part of the discovery process? Patsy does not understand that, but without prompting offers up :

TRIP DeMUTH: But do you recall inside the
17 house a video from Spy World?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I've heard that, yes.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I have never seen the video.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: And I've never viewed the
23 video.
UKGuy

Patsy has no problem understanding that she has never viewed this video!

TRIP DeMUTH returns to the subject of pictures and images:

TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. I notice you have
7 cameras out and other things.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm not a very good
9 housekeeper.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: There was a video camera, I
11 think, on that kitchen island there or something
12 like that. I may not have that exactly.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I vaguely remember a video
14 camera being out because I was probably turning
15 it up to take pictures Christmas morning but
16 then we never ended up taking any.
UKGuy

And here we return to the question, who was taking the photographs?

TOM HANEY: Did you take photographs
17 Christmas morning?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I think we took some stills,
19 yeah.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been taken of the
22 kids unwrapping and things like that.
23 TOM HANEY: Did you take the photos or --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably took some, John
25 probably took some.
0532
1 TOM HANEY: Did the kids take any?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. Oh, I don't
3 know. That just seems really weird, unless
4 somebody was trying to get rid of film and just
5 (indicating) clicked anything. I can't imagine
6 why you just take a pictures of a messy hallway.
UKGuy

If John Andrew purchased the flashlight as a gift, might he purchase a stun gun as a possible xmas gift too?

I wonder if there was a xmas video that has gone missing, seems strange to simply take stills, but have a video camera on hand, unused!

 

[UKGuy]

Talk about jumping to conclusions. How can you use the word "obviously" seriously UkGuy. "down there" implys no such thing.

Is this just a fourm for wild stories and speculation or serious discussion of the facts.

"Down there" OBVIOUSLY refers to the laundry room and not a area of JBR's body.

Lets not forget that T.D. admits to not even seeing the pictures.

Zman,

Thanks for your input. Well given the evidence I do consider it obvious. Its a valid conclusion derived from the alleged facts. "down there" is a nuanced phrase given the context of the questioning, it may simply be a freudian slip, or a reference to the laundry room, or an attempt to deliberately mislead Patsy!

I will also admit to never seeing the photographs, but will accept they exist. Given their likely risque nature I am also willing to speculate that there may be others which were more explicit?

The interpretation that I place on the police interviewers line of questioning is that their suspect is a pedophile!

Since this is a forum for wild stories, speculation and serious discussion of the facts, you are at liberty to construct your own interpretation of the interview under discussion.