Jian Ghomeshi, well known, well respected radio host fired for Sexual Assault

[otto]

That is not really much of an argument since they dated him again afterwards, and even engaged in sexual activities (the allegations he is currently accused of did not involve sex - apparently they were kissing at the time).

So they already knew what he was like (supposedly).

I am totally confused by all of this. If you go on a date with someone, and when you are kissing them they suddenly start punching or strangling you, why on earth would you see them again??? At the time all of this happened, he was not a celebrity, he was a nobody. They were not beholden or committed to him, he didn't have any power over them, so why do it?

This has the feeling of the Salem Witch Trials, where hysterical women made wild accusations. Perhaps there were witches in the 1700s, but proof was absent in the trials. Similarly in this case, perhaps Ghomeshi assaulted these women, but there is nothing to support the claims. Of the 24 complainants, apparently only 4 were deemed credible by the prosecution (presumably the other 20 were forthcoming about the facts?), and of those four, three are not credible. That leaves one, and given what we've heard, that one is on shaky ground.

Lucy suggested that she continued to pursue a relationship with Ghomeshi after the alleged assault because she was somehow suffering from characteristics of domestic violence even though nothing about her pursuit of Ghomeshi resembles domestic violence. I think she mistakenly believes that the Court and public are fools. At least the six weeks between trial and verdict will give protesters time to re-think their radical stance.

 

[Ardy]

The evidence from trial is that none of the complainants went to the police at the time of the incidents, because they wanted to continue pursuing a relationship with Ghomeshi.

If for romantic or career reasons, they considered the "assaults" as less important than continuing the relationship.

By doing so, they left other women vulnerable, and that is seldom mentioned by those who claim the woman as heroes for the cause.

Women are traumatized by such events and deal with it individually. In this trial, the prosecution wants the court to believe that they all dealt with it in identically the same way.

That is...........to continue the relationship with Ghomeshi.

In all probability, had the complainants dealt with it in different ways, there would be a stronger case against him.

The "unity" of the details of the choking was offered by the prosecution to strengthen the claims against Ghomeshi, but it was the "unity" of the women's responses that may exonerate him.

 

[Ardy]

We don't know the verdict yet of course and may be presuming too much.

However if the Judge returns with a verdict of guilty, it would mean he disregarded all the evidence at trial except for the complainants saying Ghomeshi assaulted them.

That would be a sad day for anyone accused in criminal proceedings. There would no longer be a presumption of innocence in the justice system.

There would be little point in holding an expensive trial, hiring defense lawyers or investigating the incidents.

It would amount to accepting all complaints as unquestionably true and assuming the accused were universally guilty.

That is the kind of mind thought that leads to wrongful convictions.

The justice system is far from perfect, but it is the best we have been able to come up with for hundreds of years.

 

[Ardy]

We live in days when people deeply distrust the police.

Events in the US, captured videos, Making A Murder documentary, overturned convictions.........have led to a distrust of the system.

The courts are the last line of defense for citizens against a powerful government with unlimited resources to harness against them.

Some people, including some police advocates complain about "activist" Judges who question their practices and limit their authority.

In a perfect world we could accept complaints at face value. We could rest assured that the police and prosecutors meticulously followed proper procedures.

But, we don't live in a perfect world and an unbiased "fact finding" court is all that defends against impropriety.

 

[dotr]

Sounds like the case will be in good and fair hands with this judge. imo.
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...e-william-b-horkins-the-man-on-the-bench.html


Ghomeshi judge William B. Horkins: The man on the bench
The judge in the Ghomeshi case is well-regarded Western alumni who comes from a long line of lawyers

Now that Horkins is under what is perhaps the biggest spotlight of his career at the Ghomeshi trial, Sandler and others say such a case is in good hands from a legal perspective. “Everybody would regard him as a balanced guy with good judgment,” Sandler said.

As for Horkins himself, his son said he appears to have everything under control. “If it’s stressing him out at all,” he said, “I haven’t noticed it.”

 

[Ardy]

That is good to hear, but unfortunately is not always true.

I remember being in court one day, just providing a ride and some support for someone appearing on a minor charge, and a defendant came in with his lawyer.

Before either the Crown or defense had offered their submissions to the court, the Judge said..........'I don't like to keep people in suspense, so will tell you now that you are going to jail" to the defendant.

Everyone was caught off guard with her statement. The Crown looked surprised and the defense completely flustered.

What is the defense supposed to say in their client's defense after that statement ?

The Judge then leaned back in her chair and said to the shocked defendant.......'we have some time to kill so is there anything you want to ask me" ?

It was all I could manage not to ask her.........."Is it proper and fitting that a Judge issue their sentence before submissions by the defense and when would transcripts of the hearing be available."

But......better judgement prevailed and I kept my big mouth shut.

The next case before her involved a man held in custody. He was presented before the Judge and his lawyer was absent. The Judge asked him where his lawyer was and the guy said he had no way of knowing because he was in jail. He also said his lawyer didn't have an office and "worked out of his car". It was a legal aid case of course.

The Judge proceeded to berate the guy because his lawyer hadn't shown up...........like it was his fault.

In the court room awaiting another case, was a female lawyer (from a big city law firm) who rose and told the Judge she would defend him.

The Judge scowled........"and who might you be" to the lawyer. It was a big mistake. The lawyer laid out her credentials and tore a strip off the Judge.

After that, the Judge was all accommodating and nice. The hearing was held over and the guy taken back to jail.........where he wanted to be as he was getting 2 for 1 credit for time served.

Just saying...........there are some great Judges and some who should never been appointed to the bench.

That particular Judge had a number of serious convictions overturned on appeal and retired from the bench.

She had been an old time patronage appointment, and as a past politician had very little legal experience before she was appointed the bench.

I don't think anyone was sorry to see her leave.

 

[Woodland]

Salem witch trials, career reasons left other women vulnerable, the courts are the last line of defense for citizens against a powerful government with unlimited resources to harness against them, narratives on cases that don't pertain?

Seriously?

 

[Ardy]

Well..........these women took 10 years to come forward with complaints. Can it be assumed they were the last women assaulted by Ghomeshi ?

The women testified they remained in contact with Ghomeshi for "professional" reasons.

The Crown does have unlimited resources. Every police force in Canada is at their disposal. Case in point.....the police in Halifax took the statement for the Toronto police who gave it to the Crown.

People like NDP MP Angus come forward now and say that he and many others knew about Ghomeshi's conduct for years. Are they proud of the fact they didn't step forward ?

Narratives on cases that don't pertain..........yes, you are right on that point.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/the-biggest-losers-in-the-ghomeshi-debacle/article28741727/

 

[Montjoy]

What the hell is going on in this thread?

I've only met Ghomeshi once, but I know a lot of people who have had repeated contact with him, and the general opinion is that he's a . I didn't get to know him well enough to say, but I have heard his "music" with that comedy pop band, and it was intolerable.

I can't help but notice that there is no shortage of apologists for him here, and I have to think that it has something to do with excusing men from rape more than anything else. Sure, the trial has been a mess, but in this thread I've seen a load of unrelated information forwarded as if it were evidence. And, as evinced in the post above mine, questioning of witnesses and those who defend them.

Ugly business, and dirty pool.

 

[otto]

Salem witch trials, career reasons left other women vulnerable, the courts are the last line of defense for citizens against a powerful government with unlimited resources to harness against them, narratives on cases that don't pertain?

Seriously?

We have 23 women who went to police regarding a complaint against Ghomeshi.

"While Ghomeshi’s trial will focus on four sexual assaults, nearly 23 women, many of them anonymous, leveled allegations of sexual assault against the former CBC host."

http://www.cknw.com/2016/01/31/womens-group-speaks-out-on-eve-of-jian-ghomeshi-trial/

Of those 23 witnesses, 19 made claims that did not constitute a violation of law. Of the remaining four, three lied under oath, and possible all four violated court orders.

These 23 women created an hysteria about Ghomeshi being a violent sexual predator. That hysteria inspired some members of the community to protest outside the court during the trial. Doesn't that seem a bit nuts? During Salem witch trials, hysterical women made false accusations that inspired the community to act irrationally. It seems like a fitting analogy.

 

[dotr]

https://www.google.ca/search?q=bige...h&q=big+ears+teddy+meme&imgrc=4pX2X1ElE2JXjM:

The Strange Saga of BigEars Teddy and Jian Ghomeshi
Oct 29th, 2014
Steffani Cameron
page 4 of 4

Well, given that more shocking news is breaking again as I edit this, with acclaimed author and lawyer Reva Seth claiming she too was attacked by Ghomeshi, it’s safe to say this thing is going far, and fast. What’s to come next? When will the police get involved?

One would think authorities have the obligation to be involved now, today. After all, @BigEarsTeddy alleges that Ghomeshi kept a library of media involving video and photos of his violent attacks on women, and that she even has her own footage on her own attack.

The thing with a story like this is, you really just need one hero to step forward and say “This happened to me.” You need just one. If there are more, the strength that comes numbers soon changes everything.

With an anonymous Twitter account, it seems one young girl launched a volley that would, some months later, be the blow that toppled a media empire.

Now, with two women with large public profiles having the incredible strength to be the first to put their names on the record, you can expect this story to explode at speeds we never could have imagined.

You’re right, Jian. Big Ears Teddy doesn’t need to see this.

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/news/strange-saga-bigears-teddy-and-jian-ghomeshi?page=0,3
rbbm.

 

[otto]

What the hell is going on in this thread?

I've only met Ghomeshi once, but I know a lot of people who have had repeated contact with him, and the general opinion is that he's a . I didn't get to know him well enough to say, but I have heard his "music" with that comedy pop band, and it was intolerable.

I can't help but notice that there is no shortage of apologists for him here, and I have to think that it has something to do with excusing men from rape more than anything else. Sure, the trial has been a mess, but in this thread I've seen a load of unrelated information forwarded as if it were evidence. And, as evinced in the post above mine, questioning of witnesses and those who defend them.

Ugly business, and dirty pool.

This trial is like any other. A man was accused of breaking the law, witness testimony was presented in court, and the disgraceful behaviour of the witnesses was reported in the news. Quotes from the news were posted here, nothing more, nothing less. As it stands today, it appears that 22 women have falsely accused a Canadian celebrity of sexual assault. Any thoughts on why those 22 women were drawn to spend time with a ""?

 

[Montjoy]

As it stands today, it appears that 22 women have falsely accused a Canadian celebrity of sexual assault. Any thoughts on why those 22 women were drawn to spend time with a ""?

rsbm

Um, perhaps, as you've pointed out, because he was a celebrity (who was rich and influential). People who feel vulnerable and powerless are often drawn, out of a wish to survive, to those who they think can help them out. Henry Kissinger put it well, years ago.

 

[otto]

rsbm

Um, perhaps, as you've pointed out, because he was a celebrity (who was rich and influential). People who feel vulnerable and powerless are often drawn, out of a wish to survive, to those who they think can help them out. Henry Kissinger put it well, years ago.

We know that the three witnesses in the trial ought to have known full well that Ghomeshi could not help them. In fact, according to them, he hurt them, yet they were still drawn to him, they pursued him. That's the oxymoron here. Why would a woman pursue a sexual relationship with a man she barely knows after she has been assaulted by him?

 

[Ardy]

The "anonymous" owners of Twitter accounts and blogs like Big Ears Teddy may want to delete those accounts and have content removed from the internet (good luck with that) if Ghomeshi is found not guilty. (Interesting to note and seldom mentioned in the press, is that Carleton University interviewed every intern they sent to work at the CBC and all of them said they had no problems there. One of the interns is either lying to the school or the person is lying on the Twitter account about being an intern at the CBC)

There is one particularly nasty Twitter account that uses a misspelling of Ghomeshi's name to attract visitors and then posts as if it is him posting very objectionable material.

These people may find out they aren't as anonymous as they thought and the joke is on them.

“As was discussed in King v. Power, an order will be granted to assist the plaintiff in identifying the ‘John Doe’ defendant so long as the judge hearing such an application or motion is persuaded that (i) the ‘John Doe’ defendant had no legitimate expectation of privacy, (ii) a prima facie case of defamation was made out by the plaintiff against the John Doe defendant, (iii) a reasonable effort was made by the plaintiff to determine the identity of John Doe but was ultimately unsuccessful, and (iv) there is public interest weighing in favour of identifying the John Doe defendant.”

As Pearn says in the article, orders directing parties to release IP addresses have successfully been obtained in the past to discover the identities of anonymous authors, most notably in A.B v. Bragg Communications Inc. [2010] N.S.J. No. 360. In that case, the plaintiff received an order to have Eastlink provide the IP addresses of an anonymous author after proving a prima facie case of defamation.

“The cases demonstrate above all else that while defamatory comment may find new forums, courts will provide plaintiffs with the tools necessary to uncover the identities of those defendants who post libelous comments,” he adds.

http://www.advocatedaily.com/areas-...ounts-can-give-rise-to-defamation-claims.html

 

[Ardy]

Ghomeshi got a fair trial, due to his ability to hire the best defense team in Canada.

An unemployed truck driver with a legal aid lawyer would probably not have received the same fairness at trial.

http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/02/11/opinion/why-crown-has-answer-ghomeshi-debacle

 

[otto]

Ghomeshi got a fair trial, due to his ability to hire the best defense team in Canada.

An unemployed truck driver with a legal aid lawyer would probably not have received the same fairness at trial.

http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/02/11/opinion/why-crown-has-answer-ghomeshi-debacle

I don't interpret what is written in the same way. From the link:

"What if Jian Ghomeshi weren’t a well-heeled public figure with one of the best lawyers money can buy? What if he were an insolvent construction worker up on a murder rap, defended by an over-worked Legal Aid lawyer? The dangers of convicting an accused on very wobbly testimony are very grave."

I read this as an emphasis on the responsibility of the trial Judge to ensure that testimony is solid, and that convicting on weak evidence, regardless of whether cases are argued by overworked lawyers, is unacceptable.

 

[RandomName479]

I see absolutely no similarities between the Salem Witch Trials and the JG Saga. MOO. I actually find the word "hysteria" offensive.....I do, however, see a lot of parallels between a certain American celebrity "dad" who has now been accused of assaulting numerous women, many decades ago......one case on it's own held very little merit.....but one by one these women came out of the woodwork. He has never been convicted in a court of law......assault cases are extremely difficult to prove.....often no evidence.....but I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't believe inappropriate things occurred. IMO when there are these many allegations, there is something to them.....in the American "dad" case as well as the JG case. Will JG be found criminally responsible? Likely not. But I don't believe that 23 women got together and concocted stories to bring him down. Their narrative was eerily similar....violence without consent.... Even his "friends" are not saying he is innocent.....big difference between being found "not guilty" and actually being "innocent" IMO. At a minimum he has been publicly exposed for who he is.....

 

[otto]

I see absolutely no similarities between the Salem Witch Trials and the JG Saga. MOO. I actually find the word "hysteria" offensive.....I do, however, see a lot of parallels between a certain American celebrity "dad" who has now been accused of assaulting numerous women, many decades ago......one case on it's own held very little merit.....but one by one these women came out of the woodwork. He has never been convicted in a court of law......assault cases are extremely difficult to prove.....often no evidence.....but I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't believe inappropriate things occurred. IMO when there are these many allegations, there is something to them.....in the American "dad" case as well as the JG case. Will JG be found criminally responsible? Likely not. But I don't believe that 23 women got together and concocted stories to bring him down. Their narrative was eerily similar....violence without consent.... Even his "friends" are not saying he is innocent.....big difference between being found "not guilty" and actually being "innocent" IMO. At a minimum he has been publicly exposed for who he is.....

Thank goodness Canada does not throw people in prison on the basis of rumour, collusion, omission in fact, and lies. Rumour, collusion, omission in fact, and lies were the foundation of the Salem Witch trials.

 

[Ardy]

In this case, the Toronto Police and the Crown shed their important duties within the justice system and took on the role of social workers.

If the verdict is not guilty, the fingers of blame will reach out across the justice system.

The justice system, and the players within it are not a victim support group. They are fact finders of truth and it is imperative they remain as such.