JLM: Morgan Harrington/Fairfax Rape Victim - *Forensic Link* to MH #3

[littlemaybaby]

Here's the problem with the question of "What proves his innocence?" The standard of our justice system is not to prove innocence - it is to prove guilt.

And don't get me wrong, based on what we know about him and these cases so far I *think* he is most likely guilty of the HG disappearance, the MH murder, and the Fairfax rape - but I'd need to see a lot more as a juror to make that determination.

JLM and his defense attorney don't have to present anything to prove innocence. It would help their case TREMENDOUSLY if they did (ie - an alibi, forensic evidence pointing to someone else, etc), but all they have to do is convince a jury that there is reasonable doubt of his guilt. :/

 

[human]

Here's the problem with the question of "What proves his innocence?" The standard of our justice system is not to prove innocence - it is to prove guilt.

And don't get me wrong, based on what we know about him and these cases so far I *think* he is most likely guilty of the HG disappearance, the MH murder, and the Fairfax rape - but I'd need to see a lot more as a juror to make that determination.

JLM and his defense attorney don't have to present anything to prove innocence. It would help their case TREMENDOUSLY if they did (ie - an alibi, forensic evidence pointing to someone else, etc), but all they have to do is convince a jury that there is reasonable doubt of his guilt. :/

There are people on here who apparently think that JLM is a victim of something or another.

I am not interested in court or lawyers, etc on here. WS is not a court.

I am so very curious why people think JLM is innocent. Innocent of anything. Rape, murder, intent to defile. Any charge they may feel he is a victim.

I feel he is guilty because of the rapes, the forensic links, the video. Other things such as the cab.

So what points to his not being the perp?

 

[jamicat]

Yes a forensic link in which some of us have a reason to believe is DNA. I see more guilt than innocence. Too many coincidences for him to be innocent on all accounts. And if anyone else thinks otherwise about the plethora of coincidences then I just don't know what to tell you.

For MH? All we know for sure is that there is a forensic link between Hannah's case and MH's, and it's likely to be some sort of DNA evidence. Since we don't know if the link came from JM's buccal swab or from something in his car or apartment, it's hard to say how strong that link/evidence is. What else in terms of evidence do we have on JM and the MH case? Yes, a plethora of coincidences (I love the phrase you picked, by the way, you do have a way with words), but that doesn't always lead to even charges. FOr all of the evidence, in Hannah's disappearance, LE could not arrest JM. There is even less in terms of evidence in the MH case right now, and again no charges as of yet, for any number of possibilities, against JM. It's all up in the air.

Most of us here agree with your sentiments, Heroine, but it isn't what drives the charges or the verdict. We aren't even at the stage where DA wants to charge JM. We don't know what the DNA evidence is. I have no idea how reconstituted DNA works and how it is viewed in a court case if that is what has to be used to get the match. Some posters here have given us some really good info that I knew little about, now I know more. But how does that work in terms of acceptable evidence in a court of law, has it been used in the past? Enough for charges? Charges that will hold? It will all play out, Im sure. They have JM in custody. They have the state of the art, primo buccal swab from him. Let's see where it goes in the MH case. Right now most of the focus is on the Hannah Graham case because some charges have been filed, there is a court date and LE and the DA are going to have to present what they have for that. What they have for MH and how and when and if charges will be filed have yet to be disclosed.

 

[littlemaybaby]

There are people on here who apparently think that JLM is a victim of something or another.

I am not interested in court or lawyers, etc on here. WS is not a court.

I am so very curious why people think JLM is innocent. Innocent of anything. Rape, murder, intent to defile. Any charge they may feel he is a victim.

I feel he is guilty because of the rapes, the forensic links, the video. Other things such as the cab.

So what points to his not being the perp?

I agree with you on all points. Every single thing points to him and nothing points to anyone else. So I do not think he is either innocent or a victim. I am also curious why people think he's innocent, but having followed the semantic bickering here for several days now, I'm 99% sure the response will be the legal one - that innocence doesn't have to be proven.

 

[Heroine]

Point to his innocence" In which case? Right now the only thing we know about that points to his guilt in the MH case is that there is some forensic link. That's all LE is saying in terms of what they have. The MO is strikingly similar, incapacitated college girl in need for a ride which JM was able to offer. Both girls accepted rides and that was last seen alive. But as for innocence on part of JM, up until the Hannah Graham disappearance, there was no indication that LE had JM on their radar for MH. They have denied interviewing him during that time, made a special announcement denying it.

In the Hannah Graham case, the only charges that were on the table agaist JM were the reckless driving which he brought onto himself after the he was being watched but NOT charged with one single thing about Hannah, and the Abduction case that came about after LE lost track of him, and there is no reason given to filing that charge; it may well have just come about upon researching what the heck else the state could charge him with. Unless they find Hannah and there is good evidence with her, the strongest charges may well end up being whatever forensic evidence MH has on JM, if indeed that is what LE has.

We really don't have a lot of specific evidence nor has LE filed many charges at all against JM. The collection of facts fits with JM as the perp, but whether it can hold up under the standards of the court is a whole other thing.

We aren't here for a verdict. You should really go to law school Jamicat and I mean that with no disrespect. It's just that you are skipping the whole investigation step in your posts. You always go right into trial. You are doing the defense attorneys job. Not investigating.
And I think you're wrong about they couldn't arrest him in HG case alone as you keep pointing out "we don't know what kind of evidence they have" therefore they may have way more than we know of in the HG case.

 

[Heroine]

I agree with you on all points. Every single thing points to him and nothing points to anyone else. So I do not think he is either innocent or a victim. I am also curious why people think he's innocent, but having followed the semantic bickering here for several days now, I'm 99% sure the response will be the legal one - that innocence doesn't have to be proven.

Agreed! We know what will follow this post....

 

[Conductor71]

Conductor, I'm curious: Do you think JM is being framed, or do you think he is just one of the most unluckiest guys around?

(not snarky, I'm curious as to your personal theory given your posts)

No problem. In short, I am on the fence. I think it doesn't look good for him so far, but I also have some skepticism toward LE. Without knowing that forensic link/DNA the evidence is circumstantial. People keep saying that stuff is too coincidental, but that applies to LE too. It is too convenient how every piece of media "reporting"; LE "breakthrough", and "link" just locks together so neatly; it too seems too good to be true, IMO.

LE handpicks what it wants us to see as evidence and factual to build their case, which is normal, but just condemning him based on what LE wants us to believe? Should not happen in a democratic, open society. JM has a right to tell his side of the story. I have a little boy and can't help think "what if"? No one raises their kid to be a serial killer, so I imagine his family and friends are struggling and in pain now too. It is sad for all involved, and I try to keep that in perspective.

I have some personal sleuthing theories, but it would be looking at other scenarios besides JM, and no one supports that, so I instead am more trying to play devil's advocate for now.

 

[Conductor71]

OK. What are things that point to his innocence.

1. He may have told his grandmother he bought her drinks and then left a girl who cannot walk on her own at...........

2.

We don't know what may point to his innocence. When LE builds a case, they reveal only info that helps them convict their suspect. For all we know JM could have at least one airtight alibi. We know nothing about his side of the story. Without a strong DNA connection, all the evidence is circumstantial. They do not even have a body to test and see if a rape even occurred.

I ask again, would you be doing this and assuming guilt if your own kid (heaven forbid) was accused? Wow. LE would trump your own flesh and blood.

 

[Emaa]

We don't know what may point to his innocence. When LE builds a case, they reveal only info that helps them convict their suspect. For all we know JM could have at least one airtight alibi. We know nothing about his side of the story. Without a strong DNA connection, all the evidence is circumstantial. They do not even have a body to test and see if a rape even occurred.

I ask again, would you be doing this and assuming guilt if your own kid (heaven forbid) was accused? Wow. LE would trump your own flesh and blood.

DNA is circumstantial evidence.

 

[MJPeony]

No problem. In short, I am on the fence. I think it doesn't look good for him so far, but I also have some skepticism toward LE. Without knowing that forensic link/DNA the evidence is circumstantial. People keep saying that stuff is too coincidental, but that applies to LE too. It is too convenient how every piece of media "reporting"; LE "breakthrough", and "link" just locks together so neatly; it too seems too good to be true, IMO.

LE handpicks what it wants us to see as evidence and factual to build their case, which is normal, but just condemning him based on what LE wants us to believe? Should not happen in a democratic, open society. JM has a right to tell his side of the story. I have a little boy and can't help think "what if"? No one raises their kid to be a serial killer, so I imagine his family and friends are struggling and in pain now too. It is sad for all involved, and I try to keep that in perspective.

I have some personal sleuthing theories, but it would be looking at other scenarios besides JM, and no one supports that, so I instead am more trying to play devil's advocate for now.

BBM.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Keeping perspective is good, I agree. I don't think however that people are inferring guilt based soley on what LE "wants us to believe". There is a lot of factual information (JM seen on video starting to tail HG for example), and quite a few eye witnesses. I do not believe the eye witnesses are cherry picked by LE nor do I think they are in cahoots with LE. There is also factual past allegations of rape by JM. Twice. And whether or not the "forensic link" announced by LE to MH is DNA or not, I do not believe LE lied that there was a link.

So whether or not they are only sharing certain pieces of their full information I don't really care for the time being. What they HAVE shared is enough for me to suspect he is guilty. I am not 100% convinced (I'm 99.9...). I will extend the .1% possibility in my mind to him that he may be innocent and is just one incredibly unlucky and scapegoated dude. If it turns out he's innocent, I will probably try to find his mailing address and write him a letter of support and give him a huge monetary donation to help him take back his life.....

 

[MJPeony]

DNA is circumstantial evidence.

Indeed! I just found that out by a quick research. I was surprised as I'd always just assumed it was direct. Here is some fast info that I found to be informative:
http://www.worldlawdirect.com/forum/law-wiki/25844-circumstantial-evidence.html

 

[otto]

I didn't think our job had anything to do with a court trial. We are here as sleuths to find info on the internet to investigate the matter. We are not lawyers or judges, that is another part of the process, just not our part. Investigation takes just using a little common sense and some facts help aid the process. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but as for me I believe she was raped because her parents said so. As a parent, that is not something that could easily come out of your mouth if it wasn't a fact. I mean really, would you go around saying my child was raped if you didn't know? That would be a hard thing to say or think and to assume that would be ludicrous. JMO
There was an article somewhere that stated that the body was somewhat preserved due to extreme temperatures that winter. I'll go look for it.

"The formula is y=1285/x (where y is the number of days it takes to become skeletonized or mummified and x is the average temperature in Centigrade during the decomposition process)."

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/zalaczniki/upload617.pdf

Morgan Harrington missing: Oct 17, 2009
Remains found: Jan 26, 2010

Average Temp Oct 17-31, 2009 = 13C
Average Temp Nov 2009 = 10.8C
Average Temp Dec 2009 = 2.35C
Average Temp Jan 1-26, 2010 = 1.15
(link)

Average Temp during Decomposition Process = 6.75C

x=average temp in C
y=number of days until completely skeletonized
y=1285/x

y=1285/6.75 = 190 = the number of days it takes for a body to become skeletonized in Charlottesville VA at the time that Morgan's body was in the field.
There are 101 days between Oct 17, 2009 and Jan 26, 2010.

I think it's fairly safe to say that Morgan was not completely skeletonized, and that she would not have been completely skeletonized for another couple of months.

Therefore, there must have been tissue found with her remains. Therefore, it is very likely that the DNA came from a rape kit type of test.

* Please check my numbers and let me know if there's an error.

 

[MJPeony]

Wow, otto- that is impressive!

 

[littlemaybaby]

We don't know what may point to his innocence. When LE builds a case, they reveal only info that helps them convict their suspect. For all we know JM could have at least one airtight alibi. We know nothing about his side of the story. Without a strong DNA connection, all the evidence is circumstantial. They do not even have a body to test and see if a rape even occurred.

I ask again, would you be doing this and assuming guilt if your own kid (heaven forbid) was accused? Wow. LE would trump your own flesh and blood.

If it was one of my children (and I have 2 boys), and I had ANY shred of proof that they were innocent of these heinous horrible crimes JLM is accused of, I would find a way to get that info out there. There is no way I would be able to let all of the allegations pile up if I could do or say anything to prove that they were innocent.

I feel like if he was innocent then someone, somewhere would have some information that could somehow get "leaked" to create some sort of doubt about these facts that all seem to fall perfectly into place in LE's favor.

JMO.

 

[cluciano63]

If it was one of my children (and I have 2 boys), and I had ANY shred of proof that they were innocent of these heinous horrible crimes JLM is accused of, I would find a way to get that info out there. There is no way I would be able to let all of the allegations pile up if I could do or say anything to prove that they were innocent.

I feel like if he was innocent then someone, somewhere would have some information that could somehow get "leaked" to create some sort of doubt about these facts that all seem to fall perfectly into place in LE's favor.

JMO.

But who has an alibi between 1am and whenever? Not saying I believe JM is not the perp, as he certainly appears to be, but I know I am alone at night from 7pm-4am most night since my husband works nights and never have a solid alibi, or "proof" of anything and my family certainly wouldn't have it for me.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

There are people on here who apparently think that JLM is a victim of something or another.

I am not interested in court or lawyers, etc on here. WS is not a court.

I am so very curious why people think JLM is innocent. Innocent of anything. Rape, murder, intent to defile. Any charge they may feel he is a victim.

I feel he is guilty because of the rapes, the forensic links, the video. Other things such as the cab.

So what points to his not being the perp?

My question is why people are so anxious to jump on the bandwagon to presume guilt before they know all the facts! There's a lot going against JLM as far as "what we know", but for me, I would rather look for explanations for things that might look really bad on the surface but aren't, and to exhaust all possibilities that someone else wasn't involved. I guess I've read too many Innocence Project success stories... I'd really rather go the route of presuming innocence before a conviction rather than have to clean up the pieces of incarceration that possibly occurred as a result of an incomplete or flawed investigation--I don't think you really can go back and clean up that damage. My sentiments on this are not applicable to only this case, I find myself reacting the same way in all true crime cases I've followed.

 

[Conductor71]

If it was one of my children (and I have 2 boys), and I had ANY shred of proof that they were innocent of these heinous horrible crimes JLM is accused of, I would find a way to get that info out there. There is no way I would be able to let all of the allegations pile up if I could do or say anything to prove that they were innocent.

I feel like if he was innocent then someone, somewhere would have some information that could somehow get "leaked" to create some sort of doubt about these facts that all seem to fall perfectly into place in LE's favor.

JMO.

I agree. However, anything can be used against him too, so you don't want to inadvertently harm his defense. I suspect his lawyer had him plead the 5th, so it makes sense that his family has to stay quiet too. Maybe they do have some info in his support, but defense certainly would want to be mum about it now I would guess. The press hardly seems interested in anything other than portraying him as either a gentle giant or aggressive sexual predator.

Further, anyone who has tried to show support has received violent threats of rape or death. Does not actually make you want to come forward, does it?

 

[littlemaybaby]

I agree. However, anything can be used against him too, so you don't want to inadvertently harm his defense. I suspect his lawyer had him plead the 5th, so it makes sense that his family has to stay quiet too. Maybe they do have some info in his support, but defense certainly would want to be mum about it now I would guess. The press hardly seems interested in anything other than portraying him as either a gentle giant or aggressive sexual predator.

I know. I'm sure his very well respected defense attorney has told them all to zip it. (As we know the interview given by his grandmother didn't exactly do him any favors.) I just speak with the emotions of a mother and if I knew my child was innocent, I don't know that I have the restraint to watch LE line up their perfect case while I sat in silence.

 

[littlemaybaby]

Further, anyone who has tried to show support has received violent threats of rape or death. Does not actually make you want to come forward, does it?

That's exactly why I said I would find some way to get the information out there and used the word "leaked." Because NO, I would not be comfortable coming forward publicly.

 

[Conductor71]

But who has an alibi between 1am and whenever? Not saying I believe JM is not the perp, as he certainly appears to be, but I know I am alone at night from 7pm-4am most night since my husband works nights and never have a solid alibi, or "proof" of anything and my family certainly wouldn't have it for me.

Well if he still had that live in girlfriend, he could have an alibi. I am not sure if he was seeing her back in 2009. He had friends, partied, seems like an extrovert. Besides, given how awkward he is made out to be makes him easier to place; he stands out.