JLM: Psych Thread - Professional and Non-Professional Opinions/Theories

[Concerned Mama]

4 types of rapists - http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Four-types-of-serial-rapists-what-makes-them-3159973.php

Quote: "The typical serial rapist leads a Dr. Jekyll-Mr. Hyde life, undetected by neighbors, co-workers, even family. He may work his way through dozens or even hundreds of victims before he's caught - assuming he ever is. [...] He seems polite, and notably respectful of older women. Nothing in his demeanor suggests he is a sex predator. [...] This rapist is polite, affectionate and tries to involve the victim, exhibiting signs of affection by hugging and kissing. He fantasizes that the sex is consensual and the victim will enjoy it."

The author goes on to describe other traits and behaviors of serial rapists.

Interesting read, even if it is almost 20 years old. I was living on the peninsula when this rapist was attacking. IIRC, he was the one who attacked women at ATM machines in the wee hours of the morning. I'll have to go back now and read about it, now that I've been reminded of the case.

As for the article, the author never quotes a source, but alludes to experts in the FBI coming up with this categorization of serial rapists into four categories. I wonder if these "four types" have been refined since then, or maybe even evolved into five or six types. I also can't help but wonder if it's possible for one type, such as the "Power-seeking rapist," to evolve into another type, such as the "Erotic-aggression rapist." While I'd like to hope that the description of the latter is much sicker and more brutal than JLM was, I do have a horrible suspicion that he enjoyed seeing his victims struggle as he abused them.

Ugh. Think I just made myself sick there.

IF we can speculate as to which description fits JLM the closest, I'd have to say the "Retaliatory rapist" --

Retaliatory rapist: This rapist is angry at the world - and often, at a particular woman or women in general. A perceived wrong ignites an attack, usually within 24 hours.
Unlike the reassurance-seeking rapist, who often premeditates his crimes, this rapist acts on impulse, often using debilitating force. Once his rage is spent, he may never rape again or at least not until stresses crescendo to another eruption.

But I do agree with you, SolVol, that what we know of JLM would make it possible for him to fit into more than one of those categories.

Foxfire, you would be a good one to ask if the FBI has updated this categorization of serial rapists. Any info?

eta: Meant to comment that the retaliatory description would seem to fit with the crimes escalating in the fall, when football season is taking place. IF his aggression is related to anger over losing his one ticket to success -- football -- then that time of year could certainly be a trigger, as has been theorized here at WS many, many times.

 

[IBsleuthin]

The following eye witness description of JLM shows that he does have the ability to show compassion and remorse. This would seem to rule out psychopath or sociopath by superficial definition. http://wtvr.com/2014/09/30/jesse-matthew-temper/

I think we all can agree that the act of murder does not automatically earn someone the title of either.

Not all men rape, not all rapist murder.

BUT, there are men out there who have a cog loose. I believe that all the teaching in the world won't override what they've got ticking in that hot brain of theirs and they simply cannot help themselves. Your words of warning are lost on them because all they see is what they desire.

Until we, as a society, stop trying to understand HOW they think and just accept that THEY DO think like this, we simply won't move forward. It's like going out and blowing into the wind to try to get it to change direction.

From everything I've read about this character it seems to me that he just couldn't use his 'big words'. Sounds to me that rather than being a psychopath or something like that, he's a commonly functioning adult in conversation and intellect, he is however extraordinarily and profoundly stunted when it comes to social interaction with women.

A fully intact, physically sexually mature baby Huey if you will. That's a dangerous combination. So at some point when he got big and strong enough, he made the connection that if he overpowers women he gets what he wants. So he did.

I always ask myself, WHY did it escalate? If he was a true psychopath, why didn't he just start out by killing his first victim? There has to be a level of brain development and emotional development that begins to turn toward the behavior that he ultimately displayed. To the point where other people in his peer group were noticing his very odd behavior as well.

There simply has to be neuro chemicals that reward the behavior and then build on it to the point where the desire over rules the sensation to conform to norm behavior within the societal group.

Or, he's just nuts.


P.S. don't fool yourselves into pumping your daughters and sisters up into believing they SHOULD just be able to walk around where ever they want, what ever time of the day or night and dressed however provocatively they want. The twisted mind does NOT care about the debate of objectification of women. It does NOT. It only cares about satisfying the writhing snake inside that brain of theirs. Many of you would be SHOCKED at the thoughts that go through many men's minds who you think are just innocent workers, lawyers, men standing there. Luckily most don't act on it.

 

[IBsleuthin]

If this weren't true, then men with daughters wouldn't get so ruffled when their daughters start to date.

Usually the first thing out of their mouths is, "I remember what I was like at that age."

They know it themselves.

 

[IBsleuthin]

I believe it's worth noting that all these labels haven't prevented these murders or rapes.

Rather than worrying about labeling what type of whatever JLM is, we should spend all of our energy trying to think of how to prevent this from happening.

Teaching parents to stop justifying their children's behavior would be a good start. The, "Oh not MY child" crap needs to stop.

 

[IBsleuthin]

Lastly, 5 out of 4 people don't understand statistics.

If statistics EVER helped solve a crime or prevent one, then Hannah Graham would still be alive.

 

[ksj3]

The following eye witness description of JLM shows that he does have the ability to show compassion and remorse. This would seem to rule out psychopath or sociopath by superficial definition. http://wtvr.com/2014/09/30/jesse-matthew-temper/

Ah, but, we've debated before - was that remorse and compassion or was that because he realized if the police were called and he was arrested for assault, his DNA might be collected which would match him to the Fairfax rape?

Only JM knows the answer to that.

ETA: Respectfully, I believe he didn't kill his first victim, or perhaps his fifth or his 10th, because there was no need to. That's not how this started, IMO.

I imagine full well he was raping girls or at least coercing them into sex they didn't want to have (to maintain his friendship/protection as the "big man" in school) in high school, whether the girls realized they were being raped at the time or not (no means no/threats and coercion don't equal consent). They didn't go to police. They probably didn't even go to their parents.

Then, in college, he is rebuffed more strongly, even perhaps physically, to which he responded physically. He wasn't going to take no for an answer. Yet he lost something because of that behavior. He did it again, and he lost again. He did it yet again - and perhaps five or 10 other times we don't know about (yet) with victims dead or alive we don't yet know and may never know, until finally DNA was collected and a sketch drawn. Even had he meant to kill her (the Fairfax victim), he absolutely now knew murder was the only choice. It was now entirely too risky to continue this behavior and leave someone to testify. And he has no means with which to be able to stop the behavior.

 

[Charlie Chan]

The following eye witness description of JLM shows that he does have the ability to show compassion and remorse. This would seem to rule out psychopath or sociopath by superficial definition. http://wtvr.com/2014/09/30/jesse-matthew-temper/

Edited by me for brevity: I respectfully disagree with this. I think that JM was smart enough to know that he could not risk having the police called as his DNA was "in the system". THAT is why he so compassionately drove the young man to the hospital and paid his bills. Please correct me if I am wrong about the DNA. If I AM correct, this shows that he is not so mentally slow that he can't think of a quick fix to what could be an instant disaster for him.

 

[makista]

Slightly OT: The thing that really nags me about JM is he walked into the police station, asking if he should get an attorney. That alerts my attention to the guy that held three women captive for 10 years. Ariel Castro had the audacity to comfort one of the parents in 2004. Or upon the abduction/candlelight vigils over the years and introduced himself as well.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ariel-castro-cleveland-kidnapping-suspect-helped-look-for-missing-girl/



When neighbors gathered for a candlelight vigil just a year ago to remember the girl, Castro was there too, comforting the girl's mother.

Castro, just like everyone else in the tight-knit, mostly Puerto Rican neighborhood, seemed shaken by the 2004 disappearance of Gina DeJesus and another teenager who went missing the year before.

 

[ksj3]

Slightly OT: The thing that really nags me about JM is he walked into the police station, asking if he should get an attorney. That alerts my attention to the guy that held three women captive for 10 years. Ariel Castro had the audacity to comfort one of the parents in 2004. Or upon the abduction/candlelight vigils over the years and introduced himself as well.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ariel-castro-cleveland-kidnapping-suspect-helped-look-for-missing-girl/



When neighbors gathered for a candlelight vigil just a year ago to remember the girl, Castro was there too, comforting the girl's mother.

Castro, just like everyone else in the tight-knit, mostly Puerto Rican neighborhood, seemed shaken by the 2004 disappearance of Gina DeJesus and another teenager who went missing the year before.

Remember, too, he "liked" the Help Find Morgan Harrington facebook group, made some comments, and also was a member of some other facebook group for women's safety issues. Who can help me with that one?

IMO, he knew exactly what he was doing and taking necessary precautions to be more successful/avoid being caught.

 

[Concerned Mama]

I believe it's worth noting that all these labels haven't prevented these murders or rapes.

Rather than worrying about labeling what type of whatever JLM is, we should spend all of our energy trying to think of how to prevent this from happening.

Teaching parents to stop justifying their children's behavior would be a good start. The, "Oh not MY child" crap needs to stop.

bbm

Yes, and I think that desire to prevent these crimes, where everybody seems to say, Oh he was so nice and harmless, He was a good neighbor, or No way would I ever have thought him capable of that! are behind why we keep wondering what drove JLM to do what he did. How can you stop somebody from committing a crime if you don't understand what motivates him? (other than locking him up, of course, but that usually happens only after the crimes).

It's human nature to be curious about what we do not understand. Trying to figure out what makes a seemingly normal and kind human being commit heinous crimes so out of line with the behavior of most of humanity is part of the prevention, imo.

 

[Foxfire]

bbm

Yes, and I think that desire to prevent these crimes, where everybody seems to say, Oh he was so nice and harmless, He was a good neighbor, or No way would I ever have thought him capable of that! are behind why we keep wondering what drove JLM to do what he did. How can you stop somebody from committing a crime if you don't understand what motivates him? (other than locking him up, of course, but that usually happens only after the crimes).

It's human nature to be curious about what we do not understand. Trying to figure out what makes a seemingly normal and kind human being commit heinous crimes so out of line with the behavior of most of humanity is part of the prevention, imo.

Concerned Mama, Imo Vernon Geberth says it best;

By Vernon J. Geberth, M.S., M.P.S. ... "It is not uncommon to read of offenders who physically and/or sexually tortured their victims. .... behaviors during their childhood which escalated and took on elements of sexual sadism in adulthood".

CONCLUSION

The offenders in this study displayed aggressive and antisocial behaviors during their childhood which escalated and took on elements of sexual sadism in adulthood. There was also a style and pattern to their killings which involved domination, control, humiliation and sadistic sexual violence. The murders were committed without the least sense of guilt or shame and the killers displayed a total lack of remorse. The victims were chosen at random and the murders carried out in almost an obsessive manner. According to Hare (1993) "If you are dealing with a true psychopath it is important to recognize that the current prognosis for significant improvement in his or her attitudes and behavior is poor." (p. 205) According to Monahan (1981), "The repetitive nature of sex-related serial murderers may, as such, render these offenders somewhat more predictable."

The application of such criteria could allow for the identification of potential serial killers and, hopefully, lead to proper assessment of future dangerousness and treatment strategies.

According to DSM-IV "When Sexual Sadism is severe, and especially when it is associated with Antisocial Personality Disorder, individuals with Sexual Sadism may seriously injure or kill their victims." (p.53 )

The implications of this study were that subjects who are identified as psychopathic sexual sadists, based on the objective criteria of DSM-IV are extremely dangerous to the well being of a civilized society.
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/articles/psexsad.htm
<sniped & BBM for Focus>

 

[jamicat]

The following eye witness description of JLM shows that he does have the ability to show compassion and remorse. This would seem to rule out psychopath or sociopath by superficial definition. http://wtvr.com/2014/09/30/jesse-matthew-temper/

Edited by me for brevity: I respectfully disagree with this. I think that JM was smart enough to know that he could not risk having the police called as his DNA was "in the system". THAT is why he so compassionately drove the young man to the hospital and paid his bills. Please correct me if I am wrong about the DNA. If I AM correct, this shows that he is not so mentally slow that he can't think of a quick fix to what could be an instant disaster for him.

We can only speculate whether the DNA in the system situation occurred to JM. For all we know, he didn't know that a buccal swab could be taken if he were arrested for the assault. Most people don't know exactly which arrests,situations allow the cops do do the swab. JM doesn't seem to be particularly careful of those kind of rules and regs.

I just think he realized immediately he was in big trouble because he assaulted an attorney who probably told him he was going to send him to jail for what he did. I think JM hurt a number of other people due to lack of control, but they simply did not call the police. Heck, he hurt someone the very night he picked up Hannah. It's just the way he acts. But he realized he picked the wrong person with the lawyer, and tried to make amends.

Would LE even have done the swab for that situation? They would not routinely here in my state, though they could, for something like that. The attorney did file charges, and was asked by LE if he'd drop them.

Psychopaths, sociopaths certainly can show compassion, remorse and other emotions of caring by acting. If nothing else, as we teach behaviors and how to react in situations, we do teach children, people how to act so they do not stand as aberrant. Doesn't mean they feel or thing or feel what normal people are feeling. They might be even better in going through the paces of appropriate behavior because they done this for a long time, act a certain way they do not feel. THose of us with consciences, have the luxury of allowing feelings to show in such cases because they are very much acceptable and expected.

 

[IBsleuthin]

bbm

Yes, and I think that desire to prevent these crimes, where everybody seems to say, Oh he was so nice and harmless, He was a good neighbor, or No way would I ever have thought him capable of that! are behind why we keep wondering what drove JLM to do what he did. How can you stop somebody from committing a crime if you don't understand what motivates him? (other than locking him up, of course, but that usually happens only after the crimes).

It's human nature to be curious about what we do not understand. Trying to figure out what makes a seemingly normal and kind human being commit heinous crimes so out of line with the behavior of most of humanity is part of the prevention, imo.

I understand what you have written and for the most part I use to think the same way, however; it's not working. So it's time to consider something else.

 

[IBsleuthin]

The following eye witness description of JLM shows that he does have the ability to show compassion and remorse. This would seem to rule out psychopath or sociopath by superficial definition. http://wtvr.com/2014/09/30/jesse-matthew-temper/

Edited by me for brevity: I respectfully disagree with this. I think that JM was smart enough to know that he could not risk having the police called as his DNA was "in the system". THAT is why he so compassionately drove the young man to the hospital and paid his bills. Please correct me if I am wrong about the DNA. If I AM correct, this shows that he is not so mentally slow that he can't think of a quick fix to what could be an instant disaster for him.

I agree, there are many different ways to look at his behavior in this situation. That's the thing isn't it? We bring our own backgrounds and experiences into the fray when we attempt to understand subjective behavior.

I was married to a man was was an actual sociopath, his father is a diagnosed psychopath. When he would injure me and show what I THOUGHT was remorse, in fact what he was doing was displaying sadness over having been caught breaking a very carefully orchestrated facade of innocence he had spent years constructing.

He was sad because he was CAUGHT not because he felt bad about what he had done.

So yes, I understand what you are saying here about JM's behavior and giving a ride to his victim. As you mention or someone mentioned, only JM will know for sure. Which brings me right back to my contention that we should stop trying to get inside their minds. We can observe their behavior and tally the statistics to give an idea of predicted behaviors, but I don't think we will ever really know what they truly are thinking.

My guess is their thoughts are far darker than we are ever prepared to hear. I also think they lie so profoundly that little they say can be taken to the bank.

 

[ThinkHard]

Adding this over here, as it fits this page better.

Could JLM have indeed been very into his faith? Maybe he did know what he was doing was wrong, and even felt guilty about it, could his faith have been an attempt for him to repent or even control his demands? Could he have maybe thought , albeit in a twisted way, that perhaps if he kept going to church, praying etc, that it would rid him of this evil? Maybe he felt he was possessed or something like that....or being punished for something....and he thought if he just kept working on his religion, he could fix himself?

I know, how could he keep making mistakes, and then going to repent and think he'll be forgiven...but we are also talking about the mind of a rapist and murderer...so their "logic" could be a little different. I was thinking of it more in terms of a drug addict....who keeps trying to get clean, and then keeps slipping up because of impulse and self control.

 

[IBsleuthin]

Additionally, it is my theory that with some of these types of people, (I hesitate to label JM as psychopath or sociopath), their violence springs from the same emotional location as cognitive dissonance. Shaking someone's belief systems can rattle them to the point of homicidal violence. There are people you all know right now who you would guarantee would never become violent, who will. They will leave you in stunned disbelief if you challenge their belief systems to the point of cognitive dissonance.

My theory is that in individuals with components of either psychopathy or sociopathic tendencies as well as a variety of anti social personality disorders have constructed a way of behaving in society that mimics at least somewhat, passable socially acceptable behavior.

They live within this bubble and it may include the fantasy interaction between them and a woman.

When the actual, real life interaction is occurring and the woman SEES THROUGH the facade this individual believes he lives in, (his own belief system) this so shatters him, so shakes his foundation that he then becomes murderously enraged.

This is different than the theory of rejection being the inducing emotion towards rage and violence.

I welcome any thoughts...it's a working theory.

 

[ThinkHard]

bbm

Yes, and I think that desire to prevent these crimes, where everybody seems to say, Oh he was so nice and harmless, He was a good neighbor, or No way would I ever have thought him capable of that! are behind why we keep wondering what drove JLM to do what he did. How can you stop somebody from committing a crime if you don't understand what motivates him? (other than locking him up, of course, but that usually happens only after the crimes).

It's human nature to be curious about what we do not understand. Trying to figure out what makes a seemingly normal and kind human being commit heinous crimes so out of line with the behavior of most of humanity is part of the prevention, imo.

100% agree. Trying to understand what JLM's motivation are is a bit like doctors studying to try to find the root cause of a disease. Prisons/the law are sort of like the pharmaceutical companies in this scenario, they develop things to treat symptoms....the crimes being the symptoms....but thinking along the lines of sociology, human development, nature vs nurture, neurological, biological.....we are trying to find a cause....and only through understanding a cause can we be better strengthen prevention. The law can only react.

And to me, prevention is a valuable and noble task....and if trying to understand these things, based on case profiles, such as this is part of that goal. To shoot people down, because its too "offensive" to acknowledge JLM was a human being with layered emotions, only stands in the way of that progress. It is also mimicking an aspect of what allowed JLM to do the things he did in the first place....dehumanize.

 

[ThinkHard]

Concerned Mama, Imo Vernon Geberth says it best;

By Vernon J. Geberth, M.S., M.P.S. ... "It is not uncommon to read of offenders who physically and/or sexually tortured their victims. .... behaviors during their childhood which escalated and took on elements of sexual sadism in adulthood".

CONCLUSION

The offenders in this study displayed aggressive and antisocial behaviors during their childhood which escalated and took on elements of sexual sadism in adulthood. There was also a style and pattern to their killings which involved domination, control, humiliation and sadistic sexual violence. The murders were committed without the least sense of guilt or shame and the killers displayed a total lack of remorse. The victims were chosen at random and the murders carried out in almost an obsessive manner. According to Hare (1993) "If you are dealing with a true psychopath it is important to recognize that the current prognosis for significant improvement in his or her attitudes and behavior is poor." (p. 205) According to Monahan (1981), "The repetitive nature of sex-related serial murderers may, as such, render these offenders somewhat more predictable."

The application of such criteria could allow for the identification of potential serial killers and, hopefully, lead to proper assessment of future dangerousness and treatment strategies.

According to DSM-IV "When Sexual Sadism is severe, and especially when it is associated with Antisocial Personality Disorder, individuals with Sexual Sadism may seriously injure or kill their victims." (p.53 )

The implications of this study were that subjects who are identified as psychopathic sexual sadists, based on the objective criteria of DSM-IV are extremely dangerous to the well being of a civilized society.
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/articles/psexsad.htm
<sniped & BBM for Focus>

Something happened to him at some point in his life in the fall. Something that he's never been able to fully process, perhaps he was too young at the time. (Obviously this is just my opinion). But I believe whatever it was traumatized him. It could have been over a brief (few weeks in the fall) period in his life, or a single event. I believe something either happened directly to him, or he witnessed something that was sexual and likely aggressive (or perceived aggressive) in nature. I think his inability to comprehend, or move past this event stewed in him for many many years. Perhaps he was always moody in the fall and they attributed it to football season pressure. Maybe they thought it was a back to school funk. I'd be willing to bet that if they thought back, some change in behavior in the fall months would have been noted or observed in his youth, particularly before he may have had a better sense to "mask" feeling different that time of year (when he started progressing acting out ie rape).

I'm curious if perhaps he may have been the victim of sexual assault at some point in his life? Perhaps by a family member or someone he trusted...maybe something that happened on a hunting or fishing trip? Could explain bodies in wooded areas...and perhaps assaults in wooded areas? .....I also wonder if there was a point, in his youth that he went to live with his father, and would have been away from his mother, perhaps around a family friend....perhaps in the fall....it could contribute with feeling that his mother abandoned him, and the abuse only happened because he wasn't with her...(again this is just theory, I do not have any dates that proved he lived in an specific place, I want to be clear. I am also NOT saying his mother abandoned him....only what how as a child he may have seen it, kids do not think like adults).

This is again just my theory....I am not a psychologist. ( though I do have degrees in psych and child development....and have worked with children....and children with all kinds of "struggles" for over ten years)

 

[Paulap]

From what I have read JLM went to school with several "rich girls" outside his economic status. I also read online he was a loner and never quite fit in.

JLM went from Football Star to a Taxi Driver, with allegations and tickets in between. I'll bet he was angry at the system.

I still wonder if he worked for Anchorage Farm in some capacity?

http://goo.gl/maps/e6dUq

i will just say that cville is full of "rich girls" as are most colleges
as is the world! i know many of his friends had married and moved on with their life... having kids and moving away... having careers... so perhaps that is somewhat true what you are saying...
he definitely had very close friends growing up... but they also moved away after their college days

 

[Paulap]

Slightly OT: The thing that really nags me about JM is he walked into the police station, asking if he should get an attorney. That alerts my attention to the guy that held three women captive for 10 years. Ariel Castro had the audacity to comfort one of the parents in 2004. Or upon the abduction/candlelight vigils over the years and introduced himself as well.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ariel-castro-cleveland-kidnapping-suspect-helped-look-for-missing-girl/
When neighbors gathered for a candlelight vigil just a year ago to remember the girl, Castro was there too, comforting the girl's mother.

Castro, just like everyone else in the tight-knit, mostly Puerto Rican neighborhood, seemed shaken by the 2004 disappearance of Gina DeJesus and another teenager who went missing the year before.

perhaps a friend who was smarter than him told him to go to the police station and ask for a lawyer and then leave...

that wouldn't mean he was really smart