JLM: Psych Thread - Professional and Non-Professional Opinions/Theories

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Are these bars in the habit of letting in underage students? If you start college at 17 you only turn 21 during or after the last semester of your 4th year. If you start college at 18 it's the last semester of your 3rd year. Based on residents saying students don't hang out at the mall, it's a townie spot, and the fact that Morgan and Hannah were under 21 I don't get how JM's type fit at the bar he bounced at. While some 21 year old students may go to bars in C'Ville the mall has a certain atmosphere I don't think would appeal to them. McGrady's seemed more like the place to be.

His behavior in front of the judge in Texas . . . He seemed so disconnected from reality. There were only two realities - either he was innocent and was being sent back to VA to be arrested for a very serious he didn't commit. Or he was guilty and inevitably knew his arrest would result in a DNA swab that would link him to at least 2 other violent crimes.

In either of those scenarios, I just don't see babbling about his clothes and his mattress being an even remotely "normal" way to respond.

Is that because he has no remorse? Is it because he in some way doesn't feel he did anything wrong? Is it just his narcissistic personality? Or could he really just be that slow and have no concept of what is happening?

The whole exchange was just incredibly bizarre to me . . .

Yeah, that was weird. He was disassociated from what it was about. The worry over not having a jumpsuit made me think he is either ashamed or embarrassed to be naked. Which I find strange because men are usually not hung up about nudity and football players that use communal showers aren't embarrassed either.
 
I hope we don't start with the "brain injury" or "bad childhood" defense of this monster man. He did what he did because he liked it....and thought he'd never get caught. Cameras sorted out it all out for us...
 
How to identify a psychopath

1: Look for glib and superficial charm. A psychopath will also put on what professionals refer to as a "mask" of sanity that is likeable and pleasant. For example, the psychopath may do good deeds to gain his or her victims trust.

2: Look for a grandiose self perception. Psychopaths will often believe they are smarter or more powerful than they actually are.

3: Watch for a constant need for stimulation. Stillness, quiet and reflection are not things embraced by psychopaths. They need constant entertainment and activity.

4: Determine if there is pathological lying. A psychopath will tell all sorts of lies; little white lies as well as huge stories intended to mislead.

5: Evaluate the level of manipulation. All psychopaths are identified as cunning and able to get people to do things they might not normally do. They can use guilt, force and other methods to manipulate.

6: Look for any feelings of guilt. An absence of any guilt or remorse is a sign of psychopathy.

7: Consider the affect or emotional response a person has. Psychopaths demonstrate shallow emotional reactions to deaths, injuries, trauma or other events that would otherwise cause a deeper response.

8: Look for a lack of empathy. Psychopaths are callous and have no way of relating to non-psychopaths.

9: Take a look at the person's lifestyle. Psychopaths are often parasitic, meaning they live off other people.

10: Observe the person's behavior. The Hare Checklist includes three behavior indicators; poor behavior control, sexual promiscuity and early behavior problems.

11: Talk about goals. Psychopaths have unrealistic goals for the long term. Either there are no goals at all, or they are unattainable and based on the exaggerated sense of one's own accomplishments and abilities.

12: Look at whether the person is impulsive or irresponsible. Both those characteristics are evidence of psychopathy.

13: Consider whether the person can accept responsibility. A psychopath will never admit to being wrong or owning up to mistakes and errors in judgment.

14: Examine marital relationships. If there have been many short term marriages, the chances the person is a psychopath increase.

15: Look for a history of juvenile delinquency. Many psychopaths exhibit delinquent behaviors in their youth.

16: Check for criminal versatility. Psychopaths are able to get away with a lot, and while they might sometimes get caught, the ability to be flexible when committing crimes is an indicator.

17: Check out if a person makes constant use of "the poor fellow's imagery". Psychopaths are experts at manipulating our emotions and insecurities into causing us to view them as "poor injusticed fellows", thus lowering our sentimental guard and rendering us vulnerable for future exploitation. If this psychological resource is continually combined with unacceptable and evil actions, this equals to a powerful alert sign about this person's real nature.

18: Pay extreme attention to the person's treatment towards others. Psychopaths are generally prone to belittle, humiliate, mistreat, mock and even attack physically (or kill, in extreme cases) people who normally would bring no benefits to him/her in any way, such as subordinates, physically frail or lower-ranking people, children, elderly people and even animals - especially the latter ones. Remember Arthur Schopenhauer's famous words: "A person who harms or kills animals cannot be a good person at all". Another relevant saying is Mahatma Gandhi's famous speech, "You know somebody well for their treatment towards their animals".
 
I hope we don't start with the "brain injury" or "bad childhood" defense of this monster man. He did what he did because he liked it....and thought he'd never get caught. Cameras sorted out it all out for us...

I don't think anyone is defending him. We just want to figure out why he did what he did. What is different about him compared to almost everyone else in this world that does not stalk,rape, and murder.

Mental illness and character defects need to be researched as much as cancer and other physical ailments.

There is a biological explanation for everything on this earth, some of the answers we now know, some are yet to be discovered. Just saying someone is 'evil' doesn't help anyone learn anything. It is a backwards old fashioned mindset that reminds me of the Salem witch trials
 
He was not helpless. He had the reasoning abilities to stalk, kidnap, rape, murder and do many things to avoid detection. He was also able to fool pretty much everyone who knew him.

I'd like to see a quote where anyone has said this.

How do you know he was not overcome with an unshakable urge? Compulsion is a huge part of many mental illnesses. For example people who are severely bipolar go into a manic stage and consume copious amounts of drugs, steal, have promiscuous sex, become extremely violent, etc. And they know it is wrong but they can't seem to control themselves.

This is known to be true by every reputable physician throughout the world. You do not know if he could control his urges or not. None of us do. It is beneficial to keep an open mind and not completely negate the fact that the human mind is complex and for pete's sake I wish we had some doctors on here to explain better than I can.
 
Are these bars in the habit of letting in underage students? If you start college at 17 you only turn 21 during or after the last semester of your 4th year. If you start college at 18 it's the last semester of your 3rd year. Based on residents saying students don't hang out at the mall, it's a townie spot, and the fact that Morgan and Hannah were under 21 I don't get how JM's type fit at the bar he bounced at. While some 21 year old students may go to bars in C'Ville the mall has a certain atmosphere I don't think would appeal to them. McGrady's seemed more like the place to be.



Yeah, that was weird. He was disassociated from what it was about. The worry over not having a jumpsuit made me think he is either ashamed or embarrassed to be naked. Which I find strange because men are usually not hung up about nudity and football players that use communal showers aren't embarrassed either.

UVA has graduate programs and residency programs where plenty of students are of age to drink. And also not everyone starts college at 18 these days.
 
People are inherently both good and evil. I do not believe people are born evil. They are born clean slates and their biology, environment and experiences form who they will be, what they are or are not capable of.

No one wants to excuse or minimize or mitigate for JM. But many sleuths who follow cases such as this inevitably are left wondering. What made him this? Why is he like this. Why are any of the murderers murderers?

Sometimes the answer is easy. The crime driven by greed, jealousy, rage, etc. Sometimes the answer never come. But it never keeps us from asking the question . . . Why?
 
UVA has graduate programs and residency programs where plenty of students are of age to drink. And also not everyone starts college at 18 these days.

When I was in college, every student I knew who likes to go clubbing, male or female, had an excellent fake ID. I really doubt that was unique to my college.

I don't know that an age difference of a year or two would have kept JLM from targeting drunk, blond college students, either, to be honest. I doubt he asked girls their birthdays; he probably assumed that if they were in a bar and drinking, he had plausible deniability if they were underage and he got stopped ("I thought she was 21! The bar let her in!") — if he even thought that far ahead and with that kind of complexity.
 
How do you know he was not overcome with an unshakable urge? Compulsion is a huge part of many mental illnesses. For example people who are severely bipolar go into a manic stage and consume copious amounts of drugs, steal, have promiscuous sex, become extremely violent, etc. And they know it is wrong but they can't seem to control themselves.

This is known to be true by every reputable physician throughout the world. You do not know if he could control his urges or not. None of us do. It is beneficial to keep an open mind and not completely negate the fact that the human mind is complex and for pete's sake I wish we had some doctors on here to explain better than I can.

I forget who it is--retired law enforcement or FBI--who likes to ask if these people would have been overcome with an unshakable urge if there had been a policeman watching them?

(Yes, I know that there were cameras, but they weren't capturing him doing anything overtly criminal.)
 
People are inherently both good and evil. I do not believe people are born evil. They are born clean slates and their biology, environment and experiences form who they will be, what they are or are not capable of.

No one wants to excuse or minimize or mitigate for JM. But many sleuths who follow cases such as this inevitably are left wondering. What made him this? Why is he like this. Why are any of the murderers murderers?

Sometimes the answer is easy. The crime driven by greed, jealousy, rage, etc. Sometimes the answer never come. But it never keeps us from asking the question . . . Why?

I agree with this. I think people can be born without a capacity for empathy — there was a neuroscientist who took brain scans of people with psychopathy and found that they had much lower or nearly absent brain activity in the area for empathy, and someone linked a fascinating article by Jennfier Kahn about children with suspected pre-psychopathy in another thread, and some of these kids were already harming siblings or animals with no understanding or remorse.

But that article mentioned that, while a large number of violent criminals are psychopaths, as many as 50 percent of of people with signs of psychopathy go on to lead productive, non-violent lives as business leaders, scientists and so on. In fact, the doctor who did the brain scans found he himself matched the medical profile, and in examining his own life found he had several psychopathic tendencies. The difference, he believed, was how he was raised, and the doctors studying pre-psychopathic children felt the same way. Children with these traits who grew up in a peaceful, loving environment where they got a lot of love and guidance from their parents and psychological help were much less likely to turn violent, although a few still did. Children who grew up with cold, distant or abusive parents and in violent or neglectful homes were much more likely to become violent criminals, since they already had the capacity for violence and nurture "pulled the trigger."

I bring this up because I believe, if JLM is indeed convicted of the crimes he is connected to, he may show some signs of being a psychopath. Complaining about his clothing and sleeping situation when accused of kidnapping a murdered girl shows an incredible lack of empathy or remorse. If his friends are telling the truth, that after the sketch in the Fairfax case was passed around he changed his appearance, that also shows a lack of empathy and a concern with being caught imo — especially since they said he never really reacted when they mentioned he looked similar, just kept quiet. In fact, just having a "type" points to a lack of empathy, since he did not know these women. It indicates that he either saw them as objects or just didn't think their lives were as important as his need to demonstrate his power over them. All of this is IMO, of course.

In my opinion, many serial killers are likely psychopaths. Anyone has the capacity to commit violence if not the predisposition, but repeated violence is a whole different level. I doubt anyone with "normal" psychology could or would kill multiple people over a period of time, especially strangers. I don't think this absolves them of responsibility at all — unlike people with, say, violent schizophrenia or psychosis, they have the capacity to know right from wrong, they just don't care. Even if it did absolve them, someone with psychopathy who had a history of violence, especially murder, would need to be imprisoned indefinitely to protect innocent people, imo.

ETA: The sources I reference:
- http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/m...ear-old-a-psychopath.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
- http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychopath-Inside-Neuroscientists-Personal/dp/1591846005
 
Are these bars in the habit of letting in underage students? If you start college at 17 you only turn 21 during or after the last semester of your 4th year. If you start college at 18 it's the last semester of your 3rd year. Based on residents saying students don't hang out at the mall, it's a townie spot, and the fact that Morgan and Hannah were under 21 I don't get how JM's type fit at the bar he bounced at. While some 21 year old students may go to bars in C'Ville the mall has a certain atmosphere I don't think would appeal to them. McGrady's seemed more like the place to be.

Yes, actually, a lot of them do let in people who are underage. Fake ID's. Common at UVa... or at least in the dark ages when I went there ;) Also, some of these restaurants that turn into bars later- it's easy to eat dinner there late so that you're already "grandfathered in" by the time they start carding.

As for the Mall being a place where JM would fit in- absolutely. Definitely a place I'd see him going and being recognized as a regular. JM seems very much to fit in with a particular subset of townie in C-ville that is in their late 20's/early 30's. The kind of alternative, grew-up-around-here-and-now-I'm back type group, and they don't really have 9-5 jobs. It's part of why I think he felt left out actually (not that all the people I'd see as fitting in to this crowd would feel left out). But there is definitely a group of people there that probably feel a little on the outskirts and would try to fit in. Hanging out on the Downtown Mall- definitely.
 
These days to speak to a lot of people, read or hear their life stories, no one had a great childhood, easy time growing up. Just speaking with moms, it seems to me that so many kids have some sort of issue from LD, to depression to all sorts of things now labeled and cateogrized.

It really comes down to a big thick black line that a person must not cross if s/he is going to be permitted to be allowed to freely mingle in society. However you might fell, what ever you might think, in terms of right and wrong, you cannot go around harming others, because if you are caught, you will be put away for doing so.

The family's description of Jesse being a "gentle giant" reminds me of Lennie Small from Of Mice and Men.

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/o/of-mice-and-men/character-analysis/lennie-small

MOO
 
I see both sides of this argument. I don't consider it victim blaming when you tell your daughter not to dress a certain way in public, but I can understand others see it that way. I have 2 daughters, one agrees with me that females should take care to not send a certain message, the other thinks I'm blaming the victim. I try to explain to her that I do not think the way a female dresses, and where she goes, means she deserves to be raped but there are rapists out there and you have to be careful of whose attention you draw to yourself, either with clothing or where you hang out.

In a perfect world a female could walk around naked without anyone laying a finger on her, but we don't live in a perfect world.

As far as the way Hannah is dressed, I don't find it provocative. In the 70s we wore hip hugger jeans and belly shirts that showed more belly than Hannah. It's just that we don't live in the 70s anymore. The world has changed and people have been conditioned to expect instant gratification. That and the prevalence of internet *advertiser censored* at the ready 24/7 has made life much less safe. IMO of course.
 
At some point your children are grown and you don't get to tell them much anymore. They will experiment, they will push boundaries and find ways to express themselves with wardrobe, etc.

Boys and girls need to be taught that rape is not okay. Hurting others is not okay. Teens need to be taught personal responsibility, yes. But at a certain point, the decision are no longer ours. young adults are just that. young ADULTS. They make choices and decisions and explore the world. They make missteps, mistakes, exercise less than ideal judgment. In other words they are human just like everyone else.

At some point as parents we let them out in the world and hope they take what we taught them and don't stumble too far, too hard or too often. Because stumble they will.

And none of the above has anything to do with what made JM decide to prey on women. Floor length long sleeve frock and stone cold sober, JM would have taken her if he wanted her. Wardrobe and alcohol had nothing to do with it outside of predators like JM will go for the "wounded duck" every time.
 
At some point your children are grown and you don't get to tell them much anymore. They will experiment, they will push boundaries and find ways to express themselves with wardrobe, etc.

Boys and girls need to be taught that rape is not okay. Hurting others is not okay. Teens need to be taught personal responsibility, yes. But at a certain point, the decision are no longer ours. young adults are just that. young ADULTS. They make choices and decisions and explore the world. They make missteps, mistakes, exercise less than ideal judgment. In other words they are human just like everyone else.

At some point as parents we let them out in the world and hope they take what we taught them and don't stumble too far, too hard or too often. Because stumble they will.

And none of the above has anything to do with what made JM decide to prey on women. Floor length long sleeve frock and stone cold sober, JM would have taken her if he wanted her. Wardrobe and alcohol had nothing to do with it outside of predators like JM will go for the "wounded duck" every time.

Well said, every word.

I just wish they'd all be at home, tucked up in their own beds, at midnight.
 
I try to explain to her that I do not think the way a female dresses, and where she goes, means she deserves to be raped but there are rapists out there and you have to be careful of whose attention you draw to yourself, either with clothing or where you hang out.

The problem is that predators don't always (or perhaps even often) stalk people based on what they're wearing. The Fairfax victim is a perfect example. She was just running errands after work. She was alone in the dark, and presented a tempting target. This is all just my opinion, but I would guess the same is true with Morgan Harrington and Hannah Graham - from what people who know JLM have said, he targeted drunk women, not provocatively dressed women. Those groups may overlap, but it was the perceived incapacitation, not the clothing, that may have drawn their killer in. IMO.

To bring up an example from my own life: One of the reasons this case (and the Indiana one) hit me so hard is that, two months ago, when I left work at 1 a.m. (I work an evening shift), I was followed by a man in an SUV who I am convinced had planned something awful. He was waiting a block away with his lights on when I left the office, crept along behind me very slowly, stopped at a green light to look for me when I dodged around a corner half a block away, and when I ran as fast as I could back to my office, he peeled out trying to catch me and then peeled out again once he saw I had the door open. I don't know what he had planned — maybe he was just a jerk trying to scare me — but if I hadn't been aware and he hadn't been slow to react, I may have ended up like the Fairfax victim or even missing/dead. I bring this up because I was sober, I was dressed in jeans and a baggy T-shirt at the time, I am not attractive, and I took as much care as possible. In fact, my job is on the same block, around the corner, as the main police station in town. Some predators have types, but most only care that the victim is someone they can overpower and someone they can grab without being noticed. Dressing androgynously is no protection.

But this is a thread to discuss the psychology of the suspect in the cases, not the behavior of the victims, so I'll quit there.
 
I don't think anyone is defending him. We just want to figure out why he did what he did. What is different about him compared to almost everyone else in this world that does not stalk,rape, and murder.

Mental illness and character defects need to be researched as much as cancer and other physical ailments.

There is a biological explanation for everything on this earth, some of the answers we now know, some are yet to be discovered. Just saying someone is 'evil' doesn't help anyone learn anything. It is a backwards old fashioned mindset that reminds me of the Salem witch trials



I don't think anyone on WS will be able to figure out why JM did what he did. Maybe his lawyer will have him go through some type of tests to determine..biologically..why he assaulted and murdered numerous young ladies. Hopefully, someone can figure it all out. Until then, I'm going with pure evil.
 
From what I have read JLM went to school with several "rich girls" outside his economic status. I also read online he was a loner and never quite fit in.

JLM went from Football Star to a Taxi Driver, with allegations and tickets in between. I'll bet he was angry at the system.

I still wonder if he worked for Anchorage Farm in some capacity?

http://goo.gl/maps/e6dUq
 

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