Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[molly333]

She didn't have to intend to kill him with a knife specifically for it to be premeditated. The crime scene tells you something happened that was very violent and messy, and that PERHAPS didnt go quite as JODI planned; but she did not need to know exactly how Travis would react and where precisely he'd be able to crawl to etc etc for it to be premeditated.

But, don't you have to prove either

1) why she used a knife instead of the stolen gun

or 2) how she premeditated with the knife [eg. prove she brought the knife] ?

 

[Nancy_Drew]

Wasn't me,

I kind of like your idea about the duct tape because it's another way to disable him.

And used duct tape was at the crime scene.

But it hasn't been mentioned at trial. And, usually duct tape will leave a residue. So, you might be right, but no one is doing anything about it. The Jurors might come up with it on their own.

And if his skin was wet (which we are pretty sure he was in the shower) the duct tape probably wouldn't stick well enough to leave much, if any, residue. This might also ave been where her plans went awry... maybe she taped his hands but because his skin was wet it didn't stick very well and he was able to break free from it and go after her....

 

[gitana1]

Here's what I think happened (based on the photos)

Warning: I believe this was Manslaughter

1) Jodi was photographing Travis in the Shower, dropped the camera or did something that made him really angry (or perhaps he did something that made her really angry).

2) Jodi reacted and grabbed the knife that was in the bathroom (used to cut the tie-ups).

3) She began to stab him, they struggled (the defensive wounds come in here), the knife slipped.

4) She ran for the bedroom with a very angry-looking (but likely in-shock) Travis chasing after her (the massive amount of blood in the hallway happens here).

5) She grabbed the gun and pointed it at him (and I believe it was in place, not brought by Jodi - there are too many .25 calibre guns in Arizona to force the "stolen" theory).

6) He ran back to the bathroom to escape - and to retrieve the knife (again trailing large amounts of blood).

7) She chased him with the gun (leaving a hand print on the blood in the wall).

8) They faced off in the bathroom - with a rapid sequence of events - her wresting the knife, continuing to stab him while he reached for the gun.

9) After multiple stab wounds his strength depleted. He was unable to either reach or maintain a grip on the gun (he was wet and bloody after all).

10) She slit his throat, but he continued to move, so she grabbed the gun and shot him.

The camera's final shot was on an angle. I think that one of the photos went off as a result of the struggle - and the last one went off when Jodi (for whatever reason) picked up the camera as Travis was in the shower.

...but that, of course, is the way it looks to me (and conceeding that without more info - we'll likely never know what happened).

I do believe that she doesn't remember everything that happened, but that she's not being totally honest about how it started.

Hey there! A few things:

1. Are you aware that a 25 caliber is a tiny gun that is considerEd a woman's gun by most and that Travis had to borrow guns when he went shooting with friends, stating he had none?
2. Do you discount the coincidental robbery of Jodi's home one week before, during which a 25 caliber was stolen, multiple guns were left behind and other than the .25, only 30 dollars of Jodi's was supposedly stolen?
3. The hand print of Jodi's was near the floor. How is this possible if she was running down the hall chasing him?
4. The large amont of blood was at the end of the hallway in a pool. The slit to the throat would have caused that large of a pool of blood. There was no other pool of blood as large anywhere So it had to be from the throat cut which was nearly ear to ear. How could Travis have possibly run back to the bathroom after that?
5. There is a photo of Jodi dragging Travis down the hall nback to the bathroom. If Travis ran back to the bathroom himself, how do you explain the photo?
6. Besides the coincidental robbery of the exact small caliber gun used to shoot Travis, one week before the murder, there is evidence that Jodi rented a car 100 miles from her hometown even though she had always used her own in the past and claimed she was out of funds at the time, she demanded a non descript color rental car, brought several filled gas cans on her trip to AZ eliminating the need to buy gas in AZ and made no other purchase of any kind in the state, dyed her hair brown after leaving CA, and mysteriously had her phone shut off (she claimed out ) during the entire time she was in Az, conveniently finding her charger right after she crossed the border into UtAh? Doesnt this all point to premeditation?

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Another hung Jury on HLN After Dark!

Question: Did she bring the knife?

Jury: 7 yes to 5 no

:banghead:

I think they framed the question poorly, because they were answering whether she brought the knife to the house. The real question is whether she brought the knife to the bedroom before the murder. It could have been one of his knives for all we know, but she did have it there ready.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I think it was definitely premeditated. Too many things point to pre-med in my humble opinion. I am also convinced that the gun used was the same gun stolen from her grandparents house.

I also don't think she gave much thought to what she would do post murder. I think that's why the crime scene clean up was frenzied. She made mistakes (like a lot of killers do) - leaving a bloody hand print on the wall, and a bloodied stray hair, and I think she intended to take the camera with her, but it got tangled up with the sheets when she put them washing machine and she left without it. Without that bloody hand print, stray hair and camera - she may have very well gotten away with the murder since nobody knew she was even in Arizona as she left no credit card tracks or cell phone pings to put her there.

I used to think she may have left the camera by accident, but I think it's more likely she didn't know the pictures could be recovered. I don't think she would bother to spend time deleting the pictures, which included the accidental photos, if she was planning to take it with her.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

But, don't you have to prove either

1) why she used a knife instead of the stolen gun

or 2) how she premeditated with the knife [eg. prove she brought the knife] ?

No, you don't need to be able to read someone's mind to prove that they did something. Motive or state of mind aren't necessary to prove guilt.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

3. The hand print of Jodi's was near the floor. How is this possible if she was running down the hall chasing him?

I agree with all your points, but just wanted to point out that the palm print was just below light switch level. (See the attachment below.) Maybe you got this idea from HLN because I know on After Dark they have it near the floor in their mock up, but they're wrong (and about lots of other things, they're mostly useless). They were also wrong about the print orientation. It was horizontal, not facing down, and it was just the side of the palm (see the second attachment) not the whole hand.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I think everything you say is true. But, I don't think she intended to have such a messy crime scene. And, not because she's never killed anyone before, but because she didn't intend to use a knife.

The crime scene tells you something happened that was very unplanned. You can either construe that as murder one plans gone wrong or as an impulsive killing which is not murder one.

IMO

I do think it was impulsive in a way. She planned it in only a few days, which would help explain the half-assed results (as far as not making it obvious she did it).

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

I do think it was impulsive in a way. She planned it in only a few days, which would help explain the half-assed results (as far as not making it obvious she did it).

People act like it's some unique thing for a criminal to mess up. lol. Yea, the crime scene clean up was sloppy - wouldn't it also be sloppy if you are trying to hurry up? I also don't think she planned for it to extend beyond the bathroom. I can see her imagining stabbing T to death right in the shower, but she underestimated how much the initial stabs would disable him and didn't think there would be much of a fight. If TA had a chance to protect himself on equal footing, I don't think she murders him, or at least, I don't think she walks away with nary a scratch on her. The finger is a small injury, even if she broke it that day (which I suspect) it's a minor injury compared to what was inflicted upon Travis.

Anyway, this thing speaks as if it watches a lot of movies. All of its scenarios, well at least the final 2 scenarios, sound like something out of cheesy Lifetime movies. :twocents:

 

[Gypseagirl]

Here's what I think happened (based on the photos)

Warning: I believe this was Manslaughter

1) Jodi was photographing Travis in the Shower, dropped the camera or did something that made him really angry (or perhaps he did something that made her really angry).

2) Jodi reacted and grabbed the knife that was in the bathroom (used to cut the tie-ups).

3) She began to stab him, they struggled (the defensive wounds come in here), the knife slipped.

4) She ran for the bedroom with a very angry-looking (but likely in-shock) Travis chasing after her (the massive amount of blood in the hallway happens here).

5) She grabbed the gun and pointed it at him (and I believe it was in place, not brought by Jodi - there are too many .25 calibre guns in Arizona to force the "stolen" theory).

6) He ran back to the bathroom to escape - and to retrieve the knife (again trailing large amounts of blood).

7) She chased him with the gun (leaving a hand print on the blood in the wall).

8) They faced off in the bathroom - with a rapid sequence of events - her wresting the knife, continuing to stab him while he reached for the gun.

9) After multiple stab wounds his strength depleted. He was unable to either reach or maintain a grip on the gun (he was wet and bloody after all).

10) She slit his throat, but he continued to move, so she grabbed the gun and shot him.

The camera's final shot was on an angle. I think that one of the photos went off as a result of the struggle - and the last one went off when Jodi (for whatever reason) picked up the camera as Travis was in the shower.

...but that, of course, is the way it looks to me (and conceeding that without more info - we'll likely never know what happened).

I do believe that she doesn't remember everything that happened, but that she's not being totally honest about how it started.

#5-it must have been a coink-a-dink that her grandfather's gun was stolen right before the murder. Is that what you are trying to say?

 

[Gypseagirl]

I think they framed the question poorly, because they were answering whether she brought the knife to the house. The real question is whether she brought the knife to the bedroom before the murder. It could have been one of his knives for all we know, but she did have it there ready.

I DVR'd the show. I was not able to watch it. I don't know, she may not have brought the knife, but I truly believe she brought the gun and I also believe that she had the gun and knife available in the bathroom.
BBM=I agree..You may be very well correct. I don't know if any knifes were missing (I have not heard), but I believe she took all weapons with her and disposed of them on her trip.
:jail::jail::jail::jail::jail:

 

[SMK]

I had pieced this together from theories suggested on other websites, and to me it hangs together as a theory at least. The ideas were suggested loosely but the setting forth of it this way is my own:

1. TA's throat was slit "ear to ear" which is also stated in the Book of Mormon as being the punishment for one who broke a covenant. (this checks out)
2. Jodi carried two gas cans yet still did stop for gas as receipts show.
3. Jodi told the detective, "If Travis were here, he would tell you it wasn't me."
4. TA's last live picture in the shower is of a man in disbelief of what he is seeing.
5. JA told detective: There were 2 intruders with ski masks: an aggressive female with a knife and a man who was quiet.

Therefore:
From the above facts:

• Jodi wanted TA dead so she could move on without having to see him marry, become more successful, without her.
• She decided that as she lived in California, if she was careful, no one would suspect her. (dumb)
• She decided to make it look like some Mormon retribution hit (#1 above)
  
• and probably had donned a ski mask (#4 above)
  
• and may have even made TA believe there were 2 people to subdue him by calling out to a man who was not present(#s 3 & 5 above)
  
• and had planned to set fire to the house to destroy evidence (#2 above) but something stopped her. (someone came home next door?)and also she had not anticipated such a struggle, but had envisioned maybe slashing him and shooting him once- did not imagine he would lunge out to the sink and down the hall....

In this scenario, she may have originally planned to do only an "execution style shooting" but when forced to resort to the knife, (she was a bad aim, and then perhaps the gun jammed?) grabbed a kitchen knife and did the throat slashing to suggest an attonement attack.

 

[luvtenniss]

I DVR'd the show. I was not able to watch it. I don't know, she may not have brought the knife, but I truly believe she brought the gun and I also believe that she had the gun and knife available in the bathroom.
BBM=I agree..You may be very well correct. I don't know if any knifes were missing (I have not heard), but I believe she took all weapons with her and disposed of them on her trip.
:jail::jail::jail::jail::jail:

Reading all these great posts, I am inspired to add my thoughts.

I think JA already had the knife with her. I think it was something she had had for a while - the tire slashing knife. I think she stole grandpa's gun and brought it and the knife to Travis'.

I think she always planned on using both. She wanted to shoot him, then slash his throat. She wanted it to all happen in the shower for less clean up and less evidence.

However, the gunshot didn't kill him, he got out of the shower. Then she went on her frenzied stabbing until he was powerless enough for her to slash his throat.

So, yes, it was very premeditated, despite the mess. It was only that messy because JA did not plan on Travis being so hard to kill.

MOO

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

Reading all these great posts, I am inspired to add my thoughts.

I think JA already had the knife with her. I think it was something she had had for a while - the tire slashing knife. I think she stole grandpa's gun and brought it and the knife to Travis'.

I think she always planned on using both. She wanted to shoot him, then slash his throat. She wanted it to all happen in the shower for less clean up and less evidence.

However, the gunshot didn't kill him, he got out of the shower. Then she went on her frenzied stabbing until he was powerless enough for her to slash his throat.

So, yes, it was very premeditated, despite the mess. It was only that messy because JA did not plan on Travis being so hard to kill.

MOO

I keep wondering why some people have decided to believe that the ME is wrong when he says TA was shot last?

 

[Gypseagirl]

Reading all these great posts, I am inspired to add my thoughts.

I think JA already had the knife with her. I think it was something she had had for a while - the tire slashing knife. I think she stole grandpa's gun and brought it and the knife to Travis'.

I think she always planned on using both. She wanted to shoot him, then slash his throat. She wanted it to all happen in the shower for less clean up and less evidence.

However, the gunshot didn't kill him, he got out of the shower. Then she went on her frenzied stabbing until he was powerless enough for her to slash his throat.

So, yes, it was very premeditated, despite the mess. It was only that messy because JA did not plan on Travis being so hard to kill.
MOO

You bring up a good thought-about the knife. She could have very well used the same knife that slashed TA's tires.

BBM=I agree 100% that this murder was premeditated. There is no doubt in my mind at all.

 

[SMK]

I keep wondering why some people have decided to believe that the ME is wrong when he says TA was shot last?

Good point. I think it's because it's so hard to picture her stabbing him, slashing his throat, and then still shooting him. And attempting to shoot him would be far easier for a female (no struggle) and far simpler and cleaner - until she realized she was a bad shot, and the gun had jammed......

WHY does the medical examiner believe the shooting was last? Of course theirs is the expert opinion....

 

[Applejack]

But, don't you have to prove either

1) why she used a knife instead of the stolen gun

or 2) how she premeditated with the knife [eg. prove she brought the knife] ?

No, you don't. Premeditation is having an intent to kill in the end. She did not have to have a plan which she carried out absolutely perfectly. As Juan said, intent can be formed in a heartbeat, in the midst of the act (for example, after accidentally shooting him, then killing him 3 times over). He has proven she went there at LEAST with a gun, covered up her tracks in Mesa, and had an alibi planned out. Whether she brought a knife, knew she could just get one at Travis', or the idea came to her later, is irrelevant to premed.

 

[Mountaindreamer]

Reading all these great posts, I am inspired to add my thoughts.

I think JA already had the knife with her. I think it was something she had had for a while - the tire slashing knife. I think she stole grandpa's gun and brought it and the knife to Travis'.

I think she always planned on using both. She wanted to shoot him, then slash his throat. She wanted it to all happen in the shower for less clean up and less evidence.

However, the gunshot didn't kill him, he got out of the shower. Then she went on her frenzied stabbing until he was powerless enough for her to slash his throat.

So, yes, it was very premeditated, despite the mess. It was only that messy because JA did not plan on Travis being so hard to kill.

MOO

good points, also SMK brings up some good points too, the fact is if it were not for the photos and hand print, she would probably not be in jail. and the fact that she did slash his throat the way she did as SMK pointed out=======TA's throat was slit "ear to ear" which is also stated in the Book of Mormon as being the punishment for one who broke a covenant. (this checks out)
i imagine she would have tried to blame the Mormons. Thankfully she did leave all that evidence and will be able to pay for what she did

 

[LambChop]

Hey there! A few things:

1. Are you aware that a 25 caliber is a tiny gun that is considerEd a woman's gun by most and that Travis had to borrow guns when he went shooting with friends, stating he had none?
2. Do you discount the coincidental robbery of Jodi's home one week before, during which a 25 caliber was stolen, multiple guns were left behind and other than the .25, only 30 dollars of Jodi's was supposedly stolen?
3. The hand print of Jodi's was near the floor. How is this possible if she was running down the hall chasing him?
4. The large amont of blood was at the end of the hallway in a pool. The slit to the throat would have caused that large of a pool of blood. There was no other pool of blood as large anywhere So it had to be from the throat cut which was nearly ear to ear. How could Travis have possibly run back to the bathroom after that?
5. There is a photo of Jodi dragging Travis down the hall nback to the bathroom. If Travis ran back to the bathroom himself, how do you explain the photo?
6. Besides the coincidental robbery of the exact small caliber gun used to shoot Travis, one week before the murder, there is evidence that Jodi rented a car 100 miles from her hometown even though she had always used her own in the past and claimed she was out of funds at the time, she demanded a non descript color rental car, brought several filled gas cans on her trip to AZ eliminating the need to buy gas in AZ and made no other purchase of any kind in the state, dyed her hair brown after leaving CA, and mysteriously had her phone shut off (she claimed out ) during the entire time she was in Az, conveniently finding her charger right after she crossed the border into UtAh? Doesnt this all point to premeditation?

I had to laugh yesterday when Samuels (Sam, I am) said it was not premeditation because of the way she left the crime scene. She didn't clean up. Well, she actually clean up but only they things that would have pointed directly to her as being there. If Travis knew she was coming there was a good chance his roommates would have know also. She could not count on him not telling them. So she knew they were unaware she was there and she picked up the rope, the gun, took the knife or destroyed the evidence, deleted the pictures from the camera (which she could have put in the washer or not), washed off Travis' body and made sure she left no bloody prints as she left the house.

Just because the scene was bloody does not prove no planning on her part. Things just didn't go as planned because another person was involved and was in control. I think she wanted him in the shower and she had to wait.

I cannot believe he said that. I cannot believe a psychologist would not see that cutting his throat was not an act of flight or fight and certainly she was not in a fight for her life mode at the point he was at the sink. His back had to have been towards her. So either shot first, stabbed in the chest first either wound would have allowed her to escape because she had two clear paths out of the bathroom. Either of his wounds would have brought blood into his mouth and he was choking with blood evidenced by what is on the sink. Jodi said herself he spit at her and adds as an afterthought it was water. It was not water, it was blood because that is exactly what he would have been doing.

Another coincidence is the remote in her car for a DVD player that she returned to Darryl when her grandfather reported his DVD player stolen. jmo

 

[LambChop]

Good point. I think it's because it's so hard to picture her stabbing him, slashing his throat, and then still shooting him. And attempting to shoot him would be far easier for a female (no struggle) and far simpler and cleaner - until she realized she was a bad shot, and the gun had jammed......

WHY does the medical examiner believe the shooting was last? Of course theirs is the expert opinion....

If she planned to shoot him first why would she do it from 2 foot away risking a missed shot and why wait until he was taking a shower. We know Travis told his roommate at 11:30 am he could not sleep the night before. Jodi admits they slept. Why not just shoot him in the bed? A lot easier than waiting until he was in the shower. She waited for the shower because she wanted her DNA off him and she wanted him in a place where she was in control. Had she missed her shot completely and the gun jammed he would have been able to overpower her because the element of surprise was gone. If she wasn't familiar with guns she did hit her mark which makes one think she had practiced with that gun before she left California.

The ME is saying shot not first because there wasn't a lot of blood within the brain so the ME concluded he had already pretty much bled out. Plus the wound entrance lacked the amount of bruising seen when blood is present in the brain. Otherwise he may have believed, too, that the shot came first. That was my understanding. jmo