Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[molly333]

No, you don't have to prove either. You just have to prove that she intended to kill him and he died because of her actions. Where in the definition of premeditated murder do you find that the murder had to bring the weapon with them? There is no specification about certain type of weapon making it premeditated or that the killer has to bring the weapon with them.

I'm talking specifically about this case.

If she used the knife first to kill him, it looks more like a spur of the moment event instead of a premeditated event.

I really think this is pretty simple to understand. If someone attacks me and I grab a knife and stab him to death while protecting myself, is that murder one? It shouldn't be.

IMO

 

[weather_lady]

Aaah. Yea, that would do it. It's an easy theory to buy since people really can't imagine a woman being strong enough to kill a man toe to toe. Those people aren't thinking about:

The shock of being stabbed
That he was wet and naked
That he was stabbed in the chest, and his heart was hit.
That Jodi Arias was full of rage

She surely caught him off guard. I mean, come on, there is a reason why in horror and suspense movies some of the most scary scenes are when someone is in the shower. They are vulnerable there. No one is saying that she took him in hand to hand, one on one, equal combat. She definitely had some advantages.

Your list is great. I would also add (and someone else posted something similar the other day -- my apologies, because I don't recall who it was to give them credit): TA was not a violent person, and was hardwired to choose "flight" over "fight" when he was attacked. Jodi emerged from killing him unscathed except for the cuts on her hand that were the result of knife slippage, yet TA had enough strength left in him to get himself out of that shower, across the bathroom, and down the hall even as he was being constantly stabbed. He used that energy to try to escape, and not to harm JA.

I've known big, burly men who tolerated unbelievable psychological and physical abuse from girlfriends and/or spouses, and never laid a hand on them because they'd been trained all their lives never to hurt a woman. I see TA as one of those types, which would be consistent with the testimony and media interviews with former girlfriends who've described him as a complete gentleman, as well as the fact that although Jodi stalked him, appeared at his house uninvited, slashed his tires more than once, etc., he never did more than send her an angry e-mail -- and then still forgave her quickly enough to be voluntarily engaging in sexual activities with her a short time later and indulging her requests for a photo shoot with which he was clearly uncomfortable. (I know some believe that all of their interactions on that day were involuntary on his part, but I respectfully disagree.)

 

[Applejack]

If you are going to plan something, you plan it out to work to your advantage. You don't just flip coins, --I'll take a gun and knife and flip a coin when the time comes. You don't depend on luck--maybe i'll get lucky and hit the SVC with the first blow. You don't plan to leave DNA, handprints, your own blood, and a camera with your picture in it. You don't plan to have to flood the bathroom to move a body so you can wash your blood off him in the shower.

That crime scene is a mess. She did not plan that.

Unless she planned to shoot him in the shower and the gun jammed.

IMO

There are so many points to address here. Your definition of premeditation is just off, firstly. First degree murder doesn't just apply to people who have planned out every last detail of a murder and pulled it off precisely according to plan. All that is needed is an intent to murder. A person can be convicted of 1st degree without a body, without a weapon, without an expressed plan. The jury does not need to even know how she killed him, although it is helpful in sentencing in determining suffering and such.

1. Why would she care about a mess being made so long as it was contained to his locked bedroom?

2. Even if she explicitely thought "I do not intend to make a mess when I kill him," she had no idea what Travis' reaction would be. She had no idea how quickly he'd die or how much of a fight he'd put up. I suppose a mess in the hall was preferable in her mind to him making it out into the shared living area.

3. Her first response to Flores was that she "lived there for weeks" and her "DNA and fingerprints and hair would be all over the place." She thought she cleaned up sufficiently to be able to explain away any other small details as a result if her having lived there. Given the fact that the room mate was due home within half an hour (and did in fact arrive home then,) of course it was a quick clean up and who is really surprised that he made mistakes. Either she thought deleting the photos plus running it through the wash would destroy it, or she accidentally swept it up in the sheets and towels and didn't realize it. As for the handprint, maybe she didn't see it or thought it was Travis'. It WAS chaotic but that doesn't mean it wasnt premeditated at least to the extent of "Im going to give him one more chance, but if he uses me again i'll kill him, and i'll cover my tracks just in case." That's 1st degree. That's enough.

 

[BW0000]

I think the point the ME was trying to make that at the point Travis was spitting up blood at the sink he was no longer a danger to Jodi. It's that simple.

Hi Lambchop

I agree with the ME totally. One thing the crazies on HLN never address is there were other "events" in that bathroom. There was spatter just outside the toilet area, on the toilet below the bowl, and on the wall by the scales, all of which were from a "source" low to the ground as the blood expert testified to. They have TA going from the shower to the sink to the hallway.
Did he? I don't know if he left the sink to get to the toilet area or toilet/scale area to the sink.

What injury did TA have at the sink? Posters in the last 25 pages or so have made very good points either way (shot - stabbed) and is much appreciated.

Trying to be realistic, could TA have been shot, then stabbed immediately giving him 2 of the 3 worst injuries the ME talked about then making it almost to the bedroom, I think not.

 

[ChinaBlue]

after reading it all i still cant buy the premiditated allegation. i hope mr martinez will be able to bring it home for us at closing

So I guess that means you believe it was really Travis' gun and not the one stolen from her grandfather. I do not for a second believe that Travis owned that gun which means Jodi brought it with her which makes it part of the whole premeditation theory in conjunction with all the other stuff like the gas cans.

 

[sacrablue]

I was trying to imagine what shocking event would make someone want to look in the mirror. It is obvious to me Travis was centered there looking into mirror and when he saw the wound and blood paths he became ready to pass out.
I cut one of my fingers in halph. Just that event alone your body starts to shut down and you become light headed and faint while you try to organize yourself.
What if Travis was shot in face, had the ability to reach the vanity. With gag reflex and the natural reaction to clear your thoat he began to cough/sneeze forwards toward mirror. Since the hole made by bullet entered sinus cavity, the back pressure would also blow blood out the bullet hole entrance. Now if I saw this I basicly would be a basket case. This would render Travis practicly helpless for the rest of the events to follow.

 

[weather_lady]

I'm talking specifically about this case.

If she used the knife first to kill him, it looks more like a spur of the moment event instead of a premeditated event.

I really think this is pretty simple to understand. If someone attacks me and I grab a knife and stab him to death while protecting myself, is that murder one? It shouldn't be.

IMO

Of course it shouldn't, if you assume that protection from an attack, and not cold-blooded murder, was the object of JA's actions. But when you consider that the knife wasn't found in the house, and no knives are known to be missing, that means the JA brought the knife with her. Even if you ignore or disbelieve that evidence, she also engaged in tremendous and inexplicable overkill and made no attempt to escape the house when the opportunity arose. We know from photographic evidence that within 62 seconds of JA getting allegedly tackled by TA, TA is on the ground in the hallway with his throat slit, unable to rise or engage in any purposeful movement (according to the ME), while JA is standing behind him with her back to the bedroom (this is where SHE testified she was in that photo) -- in other words, there was a dying man at her feet and nothing between her and the doorway to freedom. Instead, she stayed there, and within seconds was engaged in dragging TA's body back to the bathroom, where she shot him to make sure he was dead, stuffed him in a shower, attempted to remove all evidence of her presence in the apartment, disguised her own injuries, and attempted to create an alibi by leaving voicemail messages for the man she'd just killed. Factor in the rented car, the request for an inconspicuous vehicle, the gas cans, the turned-off cell phone, the coloring her hair, not parking in the driveway, messing with the license plates, lying about where she was to everyone, etc., and a picture emerges of a trip that was part of a premeditated plan.

I don't think that the use of a knife suggests "spur of the moment" any more than if she had shot him first. Both items are deadly weapons. In my own city last week, a woman was kidnapped from a shopping mall and stabbed to death by a man on house arrest who had removed his tracking ankle cuff. Clearly, he removed it with the intention to go commit a crime. How does the fact that he used a knife rather than a gun diminish the pre-meditated nature of the murder that followed or suggest that the woman "attacked" him and that he was just defending himself, when all of the rest of the evidence, viewed together, shows that the killing was part of a plan?

 

[Lulu67]

after reading it all i still cant buy the premiditated allegation. i hope mr martinez will be able to bring it home for us at closing

The thing that would get me, as a juror, would be the 6 stories regarding the gun:

1.) Travis had a gun, but said it was unloaded, definitely unloaded;
2.) The gun was on the top shelf, just sitting there;
3.) The gun was in a holster;
4.) The gun wasn't in a holster;
5.) I'm not sure if it was or wasn't in a holster;
6.) The gun was maybe or maybe not loaded, because NOW Travis had loaded it in December and taken it out somewhere.

And the 4 stories with the hand cuts:

1.) Ryan must be mistaken, I never said I worked at "Margaritaville" I said I cut it on a broken glass;
2.) I cut it on a margarita glass;
3.) I cut it on a broken glass at Travis' house;
4.) I never said I cut it on a glass, I said I cut it on a piece of metal.

When the jury asked her questions and she LIED to them, in my opinion she sealed her fate. I won't say what will happen, but I do PRAY TO GOD they find her guilty of murder 1, and give her the DP. .

 

[SMK]

The reason she probably stabbed Travis first was she thought the gun bang would be heard by nieghbors but after the struggle she used it in a rage or she thought he was still alive.

I have seen many people assert this about the gun being too loud: So then, why did she bother to bring it with her? Simply for the sake of subduing him so he could be stabbed?:waitasec:

 

[LambChop]

I'm talking specifically about the gunshot and why the ME says that the shot came last.

And I was referring to the last paragraph where you talk about him not being able to walk around and not be a danger to him.

 

[SMK]

If you are going to plan something, you plan it out to work to your advantage. You don't just flip coins, --I'll take a gun and knife and flip a coin when the time comes. You don't depend on luck--maybe i'll get lucky and hit the SVC with the first blow. You don't plan to leave DNA, handprints, your own blood, and a camera with your picture in it. You don't plan to have to flood the bathroom to move a body so you can wash your blood off him in the shower.

That crime scene is a mess. She did not plan that.

Unless she planned to shoot him in the shower and the gun jammed.

IMO

I agree with you, your entire reasoning above.

• She was too smart to want such a chaotic crime. But arrogant enough to believe she could pull off "the perfect murder" ("I live in California, how could they think it was me?") -
• And this has nothing to do with premeditation. We know she premeditated it; everything points to it. But she premeditated a cleaner crime for sure. And of course no one wants to leave a mess, because the messier things are the more likely you will be caught - even by a room mate arriving home and seeing blood on you, or catching you in the laundry room.

I do think she planned a simple gun or gun + knife execution, but had vastly underestimated a victim's willingness to fight for their life. (I read a book about a couple who pushed a girl off a cliff to get her life insurance. It worked, but was far harder than they had imagined - they had to drag her kicking and screaming and stomp on her hands- they thought it would be a simple one, two, push.)

 

[teledude]

Hi Lambchop

I agree with the ME totally. One thing the crazies on HLN never address is there were other "events" in that bathroom. There was spatter just outside the toilet area, on the toilet below the bowl, and on the wall by the scales, all of which were from a "source" low to the ground as the blood expert testified to. They have TA going from the shower to the sink to the hallway.
Did he? I don't know if he left the sink to get to the toilet area or toilet/scale area to the sink.

What injury did TA have at the sink? Posters in the last 25 pages or so have made very good points either way (shot - stabbed) and is much appreciated.

Trying to be realistic, could TA have been shot, then stabbed immediately giving him 2 of the 3 worst injuries the ME talked about then making it almost to the bedroom, I think not.

Actually the 'gun first' is supported by the physical evidence.

The ME said the brain was too decomposed to see any wound from the bullet, but even if it was it would have been minor due to the trajectory.

The bullet went through his sinus and ended up in his cheek at an angle consistent with Jodi standing over him as he sat in the shower.

.25's jam easily, especially when fired by inexperienced shooters (they tend to 'limp wrist' it which doesn't allow the next shell to cycle into the firing chamber)

While he may have been stunned and flopping around after she shot him, she may have panicked and tried to shoot again. Unable to do so she went for her knife (perhaps in her purse) - meanwhile Travis is able to stumble to the sink area, aspirating and dripping blood from his nose and mouth.

She attacks from behind, stabbing his head and back. He goes down and tries to fend her off - hence the blood spatter around the toilet.

He tries to get away; it was probably a violent struggle with her stabbing wildly - he makes it down the hall, probably on all fours now or dragging himself and she slits his throat.

two issues:

lack of blood from the head wound

shell casing on top of the blood

first: blood from head wound, bleeding would be mostly internal and out nose and mouth plus she showered his dead body, possibly cleaning off most of blood on forehead and in the wound track post mortem

As for the shell casing, it could have been knocked onto the blood pool by Jodi's cleanup or perhaps the pooling blood welled up underneath it kind of 'floating the boat' - the location of the casing is consistent with shooting in the shower (they eject back and to the right, exactly where the casing was found)

I think she thought she would kill him in the shower and it would be neat and easy. She didn't figure on the gun jamming or Travis being strong enough to put up such a fight.

The "disorganized" crime scene is due solely to Travis's resilience and fighting back, not an indication she didn't plan this.

 

[SMK]

Actually the 'gun first' is supported by the physical evidence.

The ME said the brain was too decomposed to see any wound from the bullet, but even if it was it would have been minor due to the trajectory.

The bullet went through his sinus and ended up in his cheek at an angle consistent with Jodi standing over him as he sat in the shower.

.25's jam easily, especially when fired by inexperienced shooters (they tend to 'limp wrist' it which doesn't allow the next shell to cycle into the firing chamber)

While he may have been stunned and flopping around after she shot him, she may have panicked and tried to shoot again. Unable to do so she went for her knife (perhaps in her purse) - meanwhile Travis is able to stumble to the sink area, aspirating and dripping blood from his nose and mouth.

She attacks from behind, stabbing his head and back. He goes down and tries to fend her off - hence the blood spatter around the toilet.

He tries to get away; it was probably a violent struggle with her stabbing wildly - he makes it down the hall, probably on all fours now or dragging himself and she slits his throat.

two issues:

lack of blood from the head wound

shell casing on top of the blood

first: blood from head wound, bleeding would be mostly internal and out nose and mouth plus she showered his dead body, possibly cleaning off most of blood on forehead and in the wound track post mortem

As for the shell casing, it could have been knocked onto the blood pool by Jodi's cleanup or perhaps the pooling blood welled up underneath it kind of 'floating the boat' - the location of the casing is consistent with shooting in the shower (they eject back and to the right, exactly where the casing was found)

I think she thought she would kill him in the shower and it would be neat and easy. She didn't figure on the gun jamming or Travis being strong enough to put up such a fight.

The "disorganized" crime scene is due solely to Travis's resilience and fighting back, not an indication she didn't plan this.

Wow, thanks for this. Real validation. :great:

 

[Applejack]

I'm talking specifically about this case.

If she used the knife first to kill him, it looks more like a spur of the moment event instead of a premeditated event.

IMO

Based on what does it look more spur of the moment? Why does it not simply look more brutal and sadistic? How can all of the other evidence just be tossed out the window due to her using a knife?

 

[geevee]

I think they framed the question poorly, because they were answering whether she brought the knife to the house. The real question is whether she brought the knife to the bedroom before the murder. It could have been one of his knives for all we know, but she did have it there ready.

They apparently forget that she is tire slash-happy and seems comfortable with carrying a knife with her.

 

[SMK]

I think they framed the question poorly, because they were answering whether she brought the knife to the house. The real question is whether she brought the knife to the bedroom before the murder. It could have been one of his knives for all we know, but she did have it there ready.

She may have carried a knife, but still intended to use the gun only until things went wrong (or secondly perhaps she believed once she shot him, she would slash his throat as per the Mormon doctrine of "cutting ear to ear" the betrayer.).

On the other hand, she may have run to his kitchen and grabbed a knife while he staggered at the sink.

 

[SMK]

Just a side note:

The only way this was a "self defense" killing is in the NON-LEGAL sense, and very different from what she and her team are trying to pull off in court.

• He messed with her mind and broke her heart (although he himself would likely not have know this at all - hence, his not understanding why a "girl wild for sex" would snoop into his cell phone and emails. In fact, she was in love with him and not nearly as sexually independent as she pretended.)
• She premeditated his murder to defend her honor.

As stated, no legal defense there.

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

And I was referring to the last paragraph where you talk about him not being able to walk around and not be a danger to him.

Gotcha. i agree with you. Just another piece of the puzzle that contradicts her claims.

 

[LambChop]

Actually the 'gun first' is supported by the physical evidence.

The ME said the brain was too decomposed to see any wound from the bullet, but even if it was it would have been minor due to the trajectory.

The bullet went through his sinus and ended up in his cheek at an angle consistent with Jodi standing over him as he sat in the shower.

.25's jam easily, especially when fired by inexperienced shooters (they tend to 'limp wrist' it which doesn't allow the next shell to cycle into the firing chamber)

While he may have been stunned and flopping around after she shot him, she may have panicked and tried to shoot again. Unable to do so she went for her knife (perhaps in her purse) - meanwhile Travis is able to stumble to the sink area, aspirating and dripping blood from his nose and mouth.

She attacks from behind, stabbing his head and back. He goes down and tries to fend her off - hence the blood spatter around the toilet.

He tries to get away; it was probably a violent struggle with her stabbing wildly - he makes it down the hall, probably on all fours now or dragging himself and she slits his throat.

two issues:

lack of blood from the head wound

shell casing on top of the blood

first: blood from head wound, bleeding would be mostly internal and out nose and mouth plus she showered his dead body, possibly cleaning off most of blood on forehead and in the wound track post mortem

As for the shell casing, it could have been knocked onto the blood pool by Jodi's cleanup or perhaps the pooling blood welled up underneath it kind of 'floating the boat' - the location of the casing is consistent with shooting in the shower (they eject back and to the right, exactly where the casing was found)

I think she thought she would kill him in the shower and it would be neat and easy. She didn't figure on the gun jamming or Travis being strong enough to put up such a fight.

The "disorganized" crime scene is due solely to Travis's resilience and fighting back, not an indication she didn't plan this.

If Jodi was standing outside shower and at least 2 foot away how did the bullet travel in a downward path. Her hand would have been level with his head standing 2 foot away. They only way the bullet would have traveled downward is for her to be standing right next to him while he was sitting in the shower. Travis was sitting on the shower floor facing south (her left) with the shower door open also to her left and she was 2 foot or more away. She would have had to been standing on a ladder?????? The farther away she was the more the bullet path would have risen and from 2 or more feet away the bullet path would have been straighter and not downward and have ended up in a completely different place in his brain. jmo

 

[SMK]

I'm talking specifically about this case.

If she used the knife first to kill him, it looks more like a spur of the moment event instead of a premeditated event.

I really think this is pretty simple to understand. If someone attacks me and I grab a knife and stab him to death while protecting myself, is that murder one? It shouldn't be.

IMO

I agree. This is why , believing as I do in the premeditation of her crime, I think she tried to shoot him first and it didn't work.

The crime was premeditated, but the knife stabbing (except perhaps the ear-to-ear Mormon doctrine slashing ) was "spur of the moment", unplanned, a mess....