Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[sacrablue]

Big picture. I see a thought out plan to kill Travis in shower enclosure. One shot to the head and off she goes. I can't see JA wanting to get into a knife fight as a means of murder. The chances of stabbing Travis in the rather small enclosure with a mortal wound is not sinking in here imo. Excuse the sink please.

 

[wilsodh]

I'm sorry but your minute by minute is pure conjecture and speculation. Totally not admissible in court.

Well, I guess we should just pack up and go home, or at least stop logging into this thread, for I thought this is largely why we are here having these discussions!

It could very well absolutely not have happened the way you expert crime analysts say it did. The blood spatter analyst gave multiple ways that blood could have been there which fits with both gun first and knife first scenarios. Being stabbed in the chest very well could have resulting in spatter and drops from the wound. Also this doesn't specify any time frame of being over the sink. You don't know the rate he was bleeding at. Again speculation. And gun firsters have given scenarios of what he could have been at the sink that didn't include checking out his appearance in the middle of the deadly attack, because seriously that is a basic explanation that's just not possible IMO.

Sorry, I'm not seeing it from your description. How does a chest wound bleed down into the sink? Why would he be standing at the sink for as much time as it takes to spill all that blood? Why would he be standing with his back to the assailant during a knife attack? What scenario do YOU visualize occurred that makes more sense than what has been proposed with the gun-first scenario?

Remember, no hiding behind fuzzy ME forensics And we are NOT trying to admit our theories in a court of law. We are simply having a friendly discussion. I'd like to hear a cogent reconstruction by a knife-first theorist that fits the physical evidence at the crime scene and the photographic evidence from the camera better than a gun-first theory.

C'mon, don't be shy.....

Dave

 

[geevee]

Does anyone have any idea why Jodi would take a file and sit on it? I saw that on HLN and found it suspicious

Seems to me she was passing notes to someone in the audience, yesterday I saw her open and read in that yellow notebook (same one she squirreled away beneath herself the day before). I wouldn't have noticed either but she had been purposefully looking into the audience a few times and I'd never noticed her doing that much before. Yesterday while she was standing for the jury to leave at the end of the day you could see she caught someone's attention and it seemed she was trying to get a message across but I couldn't see her hands and she was holding her jacket even so, to mask a hand gesture, I was thinking, but could not see it.

 

[RealityMan]

Big picture. I see a thought out plan to kill Travis in shower enclosure. One shot to the head and off she goes. I can't see JA wanting to get into a knife fight as a means of murder. The chances of stabbing Travis in the rather small enclosure with a mortal wound is not sinking in here imo.

Exactly.

And, as far as I can tell, the two-thirds plus of people on this forum who believe JA used the knife first are treating the ME's conclusion (specifically that TA could not have sustained the apparent defensive wounds to his hands after suffering the gun shot wound) as absolute gospel.

The ME's testimony is not infallible. And not even the ME maintains that he is 100% certain. Other experts, including the well-respected forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden, disagree with the ME's conclusion.

Furthermore, I do believe the ME's testimony is inconsistent with his autopsy report and what the ME told detective Flores after the autopsy. The ME told detective Flores that the gunshot wound came first. Detective Flores's investigative report documents what the ME told detective Flores after the autopsy whether the ME remembers the conversation or not.

 

[geevee]

I hope that is sarcasm. If Travis was close enough to push her down the stairs, why was he not close enough to push her down off the shelf when she was reaching to get the gun? If he was so close that she might have been pushed down the stairs, how did she exit the closet into the bathroom and confront Travis in the bathroom. Did he stop when she went into the closet where he knew he kept "his" gun?

You can't make sense out of a lie, TA was never chasing her down the hallway and Baez just came up with another 'explanation' based on a lie that makes his reasoning just as worthless as the lie itself.

 

[geevee]

True but she did say she also writes with her right hand so she could have easily stabbed with her right hand. For example my daughter is right handed but for some reason she does alot with her left hand.

As a righty I do many things with my left hand but if you're using a weapon to maim or kill, you are going to naturally use your dominate hand. And hers is the left.

P.S. She also sustained cuts to her left hand.

 

[kaki]

You can't make sense out of a lie, TA was never chasing her down the hallway and Baez just came up with another 'explanation' based on a lie that makes his reasoning just as worthless as the lie itself.

That show HLN after dark is ridiculous...trying to prove out JAs obvious lies...what is the point? Of course I only watched a few minutes of it...and quickly turned it off...

 

[RealityMan]

Well, I guess we should just pack up and go home, or at least stop logging into this thread, for I thought this is largely why we are here having these discussions!

LOL! I'm seriously thinking about doing that!

 

[RealityMan]

As a righty I do many things with my left hand but if you're using a weapon to maim or kill, you are going to naturally use your dominate hand. And hers is the left.

P.S. She also sustained cuts to her left hand.

And she was holding the camera in her right hand when she moved in for the kill.

 

[Captain86]

It did pass through the right frontal sinus (and left obviously) to get to the left maxillary. He said it did in his testimony. And yes, we are aware that the anterior fossa and the sinus are completely different structures.


Prosecutor (JM): And that gunshot wound that we are talking about did it go through the mouth or not?

ME: It goes above the mouth, its in the sinus structure, so bleeding out of the mouth is certainly possible.

Prosecutor (JM): And it ended up in the left cheek

Please give a link to where he states that the bullet passed through both the Left and Right Sinus, or even just the R Frontal Sinus.

The Sinus structure he is discussing in response to JM's question is the Maxillary Sinus.

 

[molly333]

That show HLN after dark is ridiculous...trying to prove out JAs obvious lies...what is the point? Of course I only watched a few minutes of it...and quickly turned it off...

The best thing they have done for me is recreation of the crime scene. I was amazed at how small it is. I had pictured it as much bigger in my head.

I heard some scuttlebut yesterday that JM might be taking Jurors to the crime scene.

IMO

 

[RealityMan]

Oh and the blood spatter analyst which also said that the gun shot was last from the blood evidence. I guess throw that evidence out too.



Again all 100% conjecture. You don't know the sequence of events from photos taken before and after the attack and random blurry photos in the middle. You don't know if TA got out of the shower before the attack or was still in the shower. You simply don't know. This is not have you build evidence in a case, from conjecture and opinion and speculation... and ignoring other physical evidence.

You say you don't want to speculate, but you seem to admit that the knife first theory makes more sense if TA got out of the shower before JA struck the initial blows with the knife.

To me, it makes absolutely no sense that JA would let TA get up from the vulnerable position she had so carefully choreographed.

The only thing that makes sense given the photographic evidence is that JA delivered the initial blow immediately after she accidentally snapped the last shower photo.

I cannot believe she would choose to deliver that blow with the knife instead of the gun.

And the ME's testimony and the position of the shell casing in the pool of blood does very little to sway my belief.

 

[pip]

Please give a link to where he states that the bullet passed through both the Left and Right Sinus, or even just the R Frontal Sinus.

The Sinus structure he is discussing in response to JM's question is the Maxillary Sinus.

You are absolutely right. I stand corrected. Maxillary sinus, not frontal sinus. The point still stands that bleeding would still occur from the nose and the mouth with the maxillary sinus hit. That was the crux of the controversy. Bleeding or no bleeding from mouth or nose. Yes it would have. Look at the trajectory as to what else it would have passed through to hit the maxillary sinus as well. A bloody mess.

 

[Captain86]

Talking about the autopsy report, not his testimony, he says cause of death is from sharp trauma [knife wounds] to the neck and chest. Gun wound is not mentioned as cause of death.

Also, if he wanted to tell us that bullet went through the brain, he could have done that in the autopsy report. He didn't. In fact, he said just the opposite--brain uninjured, no signs of trauma in slides.

IMO

You just pick and choose what you want. He clearly states that the condition of the brain makes it nearly impossible to deterime the path through the brain. He also clearly stated on the stand that there is not way the bullet entered and exited the Cranial Vault where it did, without hitting the brain. It is physically impossible.

The part that you keep trying to reference is in the General Internal Examination of the report, and in the first sentence of the Nervous System Examination, he excludes everything dealing with the injuries he previously discussed. He is talking about everything else not related to those injuries.

 

[zaza]

Reading up...if the chest wound to heart area allowed blood to leak into his lungs, I can see coughing of material in lungs could give similar results. But, if that happened to me, I see no reason to go to vanity plus I am not going to turn my back to someone with a knife.

I think it's very probable that TA would have staggered to the sink to hold onto something, get his balance, see the knife wounds - don't forget he was stabbed in the head and neck before the throat slashing. I don't think we can assume that the only reason he would be by the sink and the mirror is because he was shot.

 

[sacrablue]

Let's say JA stabbed Travis first. I am trying to imagine the sequence starting with Travis in enclosure. He has JA's attention per pic. He needs to exit shower towards JA. JA pulls knife from garment and stabs Travis No. Travis stays in enclosure and gets stabbed first. Injury is not mortal, Travis comes out like a bull to defend himself. More knife fighting. Travis falls to sink area. More knife stabbing. Travis makes it for the bedroom and goes down on all fours taking more blows until the final.
Sure would be easier to use the pistol. But who knows?

 

[RealityMan]

I think it's very probable that TA would have staggered to the sink to hold onto something, get his balance, see the knife wounds - don't forget he was stabbed in the head and neck before the throat slashing. I don't think we can assume that the only reason he would be by the sink and the mirror is because he was shot.

But how does TA physically get there if JA is standing between TA and the sink, continuously stabbing and slashing at him with the knife?

And, if that's what happened, why didn't TA sustain more knife wounds on the front of his body?

 

[tisamystery]

That show HLN after dark is ridiculous...trying to prove out JAs obvious lies...what is the point? Of course I only watched a few minutes of it...and quickly turned it off...

Totally ridiculous. HLN is struggling to find ways to be innovative, entertaining and fresh. Just report the NEWS!

 

[geevee]

The best thing they have done for me is recreation of the crime scene. I was amazed at how small it is. I had pictured it as much bigger in my head.

I heard some scuttlebut yesterday that JM might be taking Jurors to the crime scene.

IMO

Oh I hope he does, from the first pictures it did look like a much larger area that this all took place in but from that recreation and the newer pics HLN put up (specifically one of the last ones showing the hallway from bedroom entrance) you can see just how tight that is.

 

[zaza]

Big picture. I see a thought out plan to kill Travis in shower enclosure. One shot to the head and off she goes. I can't see JA wanting to get into a knife fight as a means of murder. The chances of stabbing Travis in the rather small enclosure with a mortal wound is not sinking in here imo. Excuse the sink please.

Rage frenzy has a way of compelling one to get their hands bloody. She had lots of time to fantasize about how she was going to kill him. Knife stabbing is very personal. I can definitely see the knife being JA's first choice.