Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[RealityMan]

Let's say JA stabbed Travis first. I am trying to imagine the sequence starting with Travis in enclosure. He has JA's attention per pic. He needs to exit shower towards JA. JA pulls knife from garment and stabs Travis No. Travis stays in enclosure and gets stabbed first. Injury is not mortal, Travis comes out like a bull to defend himself. More knife fighting. Travis falls to sink area. More knife stabbing. Travis makes it for the bedroom and goes down on all fours taking more blows until the final.
Sure would be easier to use the pistol. But who knows?

If JA delivered the first blow with the knife, she would've had to get much closer to TA without him noticing that she had the weapon. So she draws the knife from her left pocket with her left hand and attempts to stab at his neck in a downward motion. I'm not sure exactly which wound this would've been?

Based on the position of TA in the shower and the fact that JA was holding the camera in her right hand, I don't see how JA could've gotten into a position with the knife to deliver the stab to the heart as her initial blow.

 

[LambChop]

But how does TA physically get there if JA is standing between TA and the sink, continuously stabbing and slashing at him with the knife?

And, if that's what happened, why didn't TA sustain more knife wounds on the front of his body?

Didn't you hear the good doctor (ahemmm) yesterday when he said she ran down the hall when after she shot him. But she claims she did not remember that, didn't she? Now she had to run down the hall because in his notes he claims she told him Travis cut the ropes off her and put the knife on the nightstand. So it really depends on who is asking her the question and how she feels she wants to answer at the time. I loved it when Samuels said she ran into the hallway after she grabbed the gun. With Juan he said he was under the impression she shot him in the closet. What? jmo

 

[zaza]

True but she did say she also writes with her right hand so she could have easily stabbed with her right hand. For example my daughter is right handed but for some reason she does alot with her left hand.

So you believe her? In court she writes strictly with her left hand - note.

 

[LaneGirl]

So you believe her? In court she writes strictly with her left hand - note.

Sorry, I've seen her write and drink with her right hand on several occasions.

Although I'm a gun firster.

 

[zaza]

But how does TA physically get there if JA is standing between TA and the sink, continuously stabbing and slashing at him with the knife?

And, if that's what happened, why didn't TA sustain more knife wounds on the front of his body?

How do you know where she was standing? Ultimately, only JA and TA know what happen

 

[zaza]

Sorry, I've seen her write and drink with her right hand on several occasions.

Although I'm a gun firster.

I don't believe it. Her dominant hand is left. She may do some doodling with her right hand but I don't believe she's doing much else.

 

[RealityMan]

How do you know where she was standing? Ultimately, only JA and TA know what happen

Again, another knife first theorist appears to concede that the knife first theory makes more sense if TA got out of the shower before the initial blow was struck.

The idea that JA let TA get up from the vulnerable position she had so carefully choreographed, and that TA had been holding for at least 70 seconds before the attack began, makes absolutely no sense.

Based on the photos and their timestamps, it is very difficult to argue that JA did not strike the initial blow while TA was crouched in the shower, regardless of whether it was the knife or the gun that she used.

Therefore, JA was standing between TA and the sink after striking the initial blow.

 

[geevee]

How do you know where she was standing? Ultimately, only JA and TA know what happen

Since TA is in the shower when the violence begins, there aren't many ways she could be standing to deliver either a gun or knife wound, shower door on left, shower edging and wall on right and she is left handed.

 

[LaneGirl]

I don't believe it. Her dominant hand is left. She may do some doodling with her right hand but I don't believe she's doing much else.

Well you don't have to believe it . Also when she writes with her left hand she picks up her hand in a wierd way after each word, but when writing with her right hand it flows naturally. When drinking with her left hand her elbow is out but when drinking with her right hand its down like most people drink. BTW I'm not the only one with these observations.

 

[Renee110]

The best thing they have done for me is recreation of the crime scene. I was amazed at how small it is. I had pictured it as much bigger in my head.

I heard some scuttlebut yesterday that JM might be taking Jurors to the crime scene.

IMO

I hope so! Where did you hear that please?

 

[RealityMan]

Knife first theorists:

Is this how you believe JA thought the sequence of events would play out if she used the knife first?

Shower scene from the movie Psycho

 

[Renee110]

I think it's very probable that TA would have staggered to the sink to hold onto something, get his balance, see the knife wounds - don't forget he was stabbed in the head and neck before the throat slashing. I don't think we can assume that the only reason he would be by the sink and the mirror is because he was shot.

Please please please don't slay me for asking this.....I'm not an expert anything and this is my first trial and I'm not a sleuth!

Is it possible that it was never Travis at the sink, and the blood came from JA being drenched with his blood and SHE is the one who stood at the sink? I just wondered. Also after watching HLN last night and seeing how small the bathroom is, I thought that the sink would be the only thing that you could hold onto to try to orient yourself or hold on to something. I wouldn't think looking at myself would be a priority. So I agree with your speculation zaza.

 

[danzn16]

Yes you have to think it was a defense folder so why hide it. i hope her attorneys watched hln last night and saw that

I wish it was worthy of her getting shock with that shock belt. Lmao

 

[danzn16]

It did pass through the right frontal sinus (and left obviously) to get to the left maxillary. He said it did in his testimony. And yes, we are aware that the anterior fossa and the sinus are completely different structures.


Prosecutor (JM): And that gunshot wound that we are talking about did it go through the mouth or not?

ME: It goes above the mouth, its in the sinus structure, so bleeding out of the mouth is certainly possible.

Prosecutor (JM): And it ended up in the left cheek

The sinus structures above the mouth would be the maxillary sinuses. And that would be more practical with the trajectory also. Does he state specifically it went into the frontal sinus? Because you would definitely have to go through the maxillary sinus to enter the cheek as that sinus is in the cheek bone. So maybe that was all he was speaking of? It definitely couldn't have went through both frontal sinuses or it never would have made it to the cheek. Trajectory is wrong for that.

 

[Captain86]

The gunshot trajectory tells the story if we let the evidence speak for itself.

It is from top to bottom. That means she is standing above him when he is shot. It is from right to left. That means the right side of his head is exposed to her. The wound has no stippling or gunshot residue. That means the gun is about 2 feet away , or more, from his head.

The last shower picture of him sitting in the shower, with his back to the closet wall, his right side facing the bathroom, meets all 3 of these criteria.

There is no high velocity gunshot blood spatter found in the bathroom. That also supports he was shot in the shower.

The bullet casing is easily a non issue due to the moveable crime scene. However, it is located in the correct quadrant of the bathroom to have been ejected from a gunshot at the shower. It is not in the correct part of the bathroom to support her scenario of shooting someone lunging at her out of the closet [HLN demo].

Finally, if we picture her standing above him and outside the shower door, we can picture how it would be impossible to create that wound with her right hand because with her right hand directing the gun, it would have gone into his head at a different angle. The shower abuts the closet wall. There is no room to move her right hand into the proper position of that shot if she is standing, facing him sitting in the shower. Therefore, we can deduce she shot him with her left hand as she stood above him outside the shower door, and then snapped a picture with the camera in her right hand, probably by mistake.

It's hard to recreate that trajectory if he is lying down.

IMO

You are assuming a lot of things. Just because the wound is in more vertical direction does not mean that she had to be standing over a sitting victim. That picture leads you believe that is when it happened, but that does not mean that is as absolute as you like to make it seem.

The angle of the bullet path from where it entered the R Frontal Fossa to it entered the Ethmoid Bone at midline in the base of the Cranial Vault is a very steep angle. She may not be tall enough to get that angle even if he is sitting. I pulled a skull model apart yesterday here at work, and to get from the entrance to the exit of the Cranial Vault is a really steep downward angle. At her height, this would be a difficult shooting angle to get that trajectory.

The trajectory is close to a 20 degree angle from a vertical axis. She would have had to have been about the same angle in front of him. Even with him sitting this becomes very difficult for her.

With him sitting and her two feet away, the angles don't really match up whether she uses the right or the left hand. The vertical path would be to flat from two feet. She would have had to have been closer, but the evidence does not support this.

I have a Hi/Lo stool in my office. I lowered it down as far as it would go and put the skull model on it. When I sit in the floor beside the stool, I am still taller than the top of the skull by a fair amount. I am 5-5 to 5-6. TA was certainly taller than me in a sitting position. To recreate the same trajectory of the bullet going though the skull, I had to stand with the gun a foot or less from the skull. I also had to stand at an angle off the r eyebrow. If I backed up intil the gun would have been 2ft away the natural angle would have been to flat. To get the same angle, I had to shrug my shoulder and *advertiser censored* my wrist down wile elevating on my toes somewhat. With the skull lying on the floor it was much easier to recreate the angle. The gun needed to be about 30 inches from the target. I know this is not scientific in anyway.

You keep making the statement that there would be blood splatter from shooting him after he was dead. Where would this blood and the pressure to produce this splatter come from if most of his blood is in the carpet at the other end of the hall?

 

[Gypseagirl]

The best thing they have done for me is recreation of the crime scene. I was amazed at how small it is. I had pictured it as much bigger in my head.

I heard some scuttlebut yesterday that JM might be taking Jurors to the crime scene.

IMO

I sure hope so. I believe that in cases like this-the jury should view the crime scene to get a better perspective.

 

[danzn16]

Well, I guess we should just pack up and go home, or at least stop logging into this thread, for I thought this is largely why we are here having these discussions!

I didn't say discussing it was bad. I said the speculation doesn't mean it's proof like many people think it is. Just because you think the times line up for gun first with a speculated scenario doesn't make it proof whatsoever. That's all I said.

Sorry, I'm not seeing it from your description. How does a chest wound bleed down into the sink? Why would he be standing at the sink for as much time as it takes to spill all that blood? Why would he be standing with his back to the assailant during a knife attack? What scenario do YOU visualize occurred that makes more sense than what has been proposed with the gun-first scenario?

Remember, no hiding behind fuzzy ME forensics And we are NOT trying to admit our theories in a court of law. We are simply having a friendly discussion. I'd like to hear a cogent reconstruction by a knife-first theorist that fits the physical evidence at the crime scene and the photographic evidence from the camera better than a gun-first theory.

C'mon, don't be shy.....

Dave

He didn't just have a chest wound. He also had stabs to the throat (not the ear to ear one), multiple chest wounds and stabs to the head. Any of those could have dripped onto the sink. Chest wounds included. Again you don't know that he stood there for a long time as you say because you don't know the rate of blood loss. Significant injuries like TA sustained bleed profusely and the amount of blood in the sink could happen quickly. And I don't think he ever intentionally turned his back at the sink, I think a good explanation would be he fell and was getting back up. I absolutely don't think he turned his back to look at himself like many others. I don't visualize a scenario because there is absolutely no way to know what happened. It's a waste of my time that I have little of. I go by the evidence found at the crime scene and the autopsy and 2 different people that are experts both said gun last. To ignore both evidence materials is crazy IMO. And I in no way think the MEs evidence is fuzzy. I'm starting to think its arrogant that people think they know more than a ME and slightly irrational.

 

[danzn16]

Exactly.

And, as far as I can tell, the two-thirds plus of people on this forum who believe JA used the knife first are treating the ME's conclusion (specifically that TA could not have sustained the apparent defensive wounds to his hands after suffering the gun shot wound) as absolute gospel.

The ME's testimony is not infallible. And not even the ME maintains that he is 100% certain. Other experts, including the well-respected forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden, disagree with the ME's conclusion.

Furthermore, I do believe the ME's testimony is inconsistent with his autopsy report and what the ME told detective Flores after the autopsy. The ME told detective Flores that the gunshot wound came first. Detective Flores's investigative report documents what the ME told detective Flores after the autopsy whether the ME remembers the conversation or not.

I have yet to see your beloved dr Badens written opinion or spoken opinion. Only from a second hand account and only Dr Baden. How do you know the person wasn't mistaken on his opinion? How do you know if its even the doc u think it is? I've seen a former prosecutors name is Baden and is speaking of gun first.

I don't understand how people see other docs opinions as gospel when they didn't even see the body!

 

[danzn16]

That show HLN after dark is ridiculous...trying to prove out JAs obvious lies...what is the point? Of course I only watched a few minutes of it...and quickly turned it off...

Exactly and most people are getting their opinions from HLN. And state as fact what HLN hires docs and former prosecutors to say. But yet we are called the sheep because we go by only evidence from the scene and info provided by the people directly involved in the case?

 

[sacrablue]

I didn't say discussing it was bad. I said the speculation doesn't mean it's proof like many people think it is. Just because you think the times line up for gun first with a speculated scenario doesn't make it proof whatsoever. That's all I said.




He didn't just have a chest wound. He also had stabs to the throat (not the ear to ear one), multiple chest wounds and stabs to the head. Any of those could have dripped onto the sink. Chest wounds included. Again you don't know that he stood there for a long time as you say because you don't know the rate of blood loss. Significant injuries like TA sustained bleed profusely and the amount of blood in the sink could happen quickly. And I don't think he ever intentionally turned his back at the sink, I think a good explanation would be he fell and was getting back up. I absolutely don't think he turned his back to look at himself like many others. I don't visualize a scenario because there is absolutely no way to know what happened. It's a waste of my time that I have little of. I go by the evidence found at the crime scene and the autopsy and 2 different people that are experts both said gun last. To ignore both evidence materials is crazy IMO. And I in no way think the MEs evidence is fuzzy. I'm starting to think its arrogant that people think they know more than a ME and slightly irrational.

I wonder why 'Napoleon' hasn't tried to destroy the gun first defense?