Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[Captain86]

That's just not true. He references all previously discussed injuries in his general discussion of the systems of the body.



Under CARDIOVASCULAR SYSTEM he says this:


Apart from previously described traumatic injury of the superior vena cava and the carotid artery, no other vascular abnormalities are identified.


Under NECK he says this:


There is extensive sharp force injury of the upper airway as previously described. Due to
4020
decomposition, there are no demonstrable remaining hemorrhages in the strap muscles or soft tissues of the neck. The upper airway is traumatized but patent.


So he mentions all the injuries listed in the first part of his report as he goes through each system of the body.

But, under NERVOUS SYSTEM he says this:

The dura mater and falx cerebri are intact. There is good preservation of cerebral symmetry with diffuse green-gray softening of parenchyma due to decomposition. Multiple serial sections of autolyzed brain do not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma, foreign bodies, or previously existing natural disease. The atlanto-occipital articulation is grossly normal.

So he doesn't mention any injury to the brain. He doesn't mention any injury in his first discussion of the brain or in his discussion here under the systems. He says nothing about the right frontal lobe.

In his summary, he says Travis died of " sharp force trauma of the neck and torso." In other words, he died of stab wounds to the neck and chest. In his summary he says of the gun shot wound:

There was a single penetrating gunshot wound of the head with injuries of the skull and face.

Again, in his summary he says nothing about the existence of any brain injuries, just injuries of the skull and face.

IMO
http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/redactedtravisautopsy.pdf

I like how you leave out the first 2 lines of the Nervous System section of his report and act like they don't exsist.

In all of the examples you give, he states "as previously described". Which is what he says in the Nervous System exam. I sorry you are having trouble with this, but I don't see your point.

Basic anatomy of the skull and brain dictate that an object passing through the R Anterior Fossa will pass through the R Frontal Lobe. No way around it. Just because the path cannot be identified due to the brain decaying doesn't mean it didn't happen. It also cannot enter the skull without puncturing the Dura Mater. The rest of the Dura Mater is intact as he describes in the rest of the Nervous System review. He had excluded the "previously described" injuries, and was looking at the rest of the system.

Where the bullet re-entered the facial skeleton made the gunshot wound a facial injury. Again, what is your point with this. To get from point A (the entrance wound in the Frontal Bone) to point B (the Ethmoid Bone at midline of the inferior Cranial Vault where the bullet re-entered the facial skeleton) it had to pass through the brain. Once again, it is basic anatomy. Anyone at his level should understand that, and not have to have it explained to them.

 

[sacrablue]

If Travis was coherent with all his faculties when he exited the enclosure there is no way a small woman is going to over power him. There must have been a robe or towel or object to grab to help Travis defend himself.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Yeah. If she had just come at him with a knife, he should have won that fight. [

How could you possible know this? Sorry, I don't believe you.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

If Travis was coherent with all his faculties when he exited the enclosure there is no way a small woman is going to over power him. There must have been a robe or towel or object to grab to help Travis defend himself.

She was strong enough to drag him down the hall and lift him into the shower. She was strong enough to stab him in the chest all the way to the spine. She was strong enough to cut his throat to the spine. She wasn't weak, meek or fragile.

 

[molly333]

In all of the examples you give, he states "as previously described". Which is what he says in the Nervous System exam. I sorry you are having trouble with this, but I don't see your point.

Basic anatomy of the skull and brain dictate that an object passing through the R Anterior Fossa will pass through the R Frontal Lobe. No way around it. Just because the path cannot be identified due to the brain decaying doesn't mean it didn't happen. It also cannot enter the skull without puncturing the Dura Mater. The rest of the Dura Mater is intact as he describes in the rest of the Nervous System review. He had excluded the "previously described" injuries, and was looking at the rest of the system.

Where the bullet re-entered the facial skeleton made the gunshot wound a facial injury. Again, what is your point with this. To get from point A (the entrance wound in the Frontal Bone) to point B (the Ethmoid Bone at midline of the inferior Cranial Vault where the bullet re-entered the facial skeleton) it had to pass through the brain. Once again, it is basic anatomy. Anyone at his level should understand that, and not have to have it explained to them.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way. He doesn't say under NERVOUS SYSTEM the previously presumed brain injury to the right frontal lobe. Don't you think that would be worth mentioning somewhere in the report, if it happened, rather than hoping Capt 86 could come along and explain it to everyone?

There was no bullet through the brain or he would have at least mentioned it, instead of saying the opposite. Let's say one skull hole was in the middle of the forehead with an exit wound in the back of the head. Do you think he would have still said no apparent injuries to the brain?

IMO

 

[Captain86]

I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way. He doesn't say under NERVOUS SYSTEM the previously presumed brain injury to the right frontal lobe. Don't you think that would be worth mentioning somewhere in the report, if it happened, rather than hoping Capt 86 could come along and explain it to everyone?

There was no bullet through the brain or he would have at least mentioned it, instead of saying the opposite. Let's say one skull hole was in the middle of the forehead with an exit wound in the back of the head. Do you think he would have still said no apparent injuries to the brain?

IMO

Well, if you understood anatomy as well as you seem to think you do, I wouldn't have to explain it to you over and over again. I make my living off of human anatomy, and while I don't have to do a lot with intracranial anatomy. It isn't that difficult nor hard to look up and refresh on. You need to really look at how the brain is packed into the Anterior Fossa and look at the bony structure and anatomy.

 

[joypath]

Does anyone have any idea why Jodi would take a file and sit on it? I saw that on HLN and found it suspicious

BBM:


Possibly because she's suffering from Enterobius vermicularis? After all, she hates to sleep alone and an inmate with pinworms is never alone!:great::great::great:

 

[Ricki]

Did Wilmont loose her memory? We went over all this yesterday.

 

[wilsodh]

The bullet entered the skull though the Frontal Bone then passed through the R Anterior Fossa. The Space that is named the Anterior Fossa houses the Frontal Lobes of the brain. There is no extra space inside this structure. It is all taken up by the Frontal Lobes. The bullet then exited the Fossa at midline and re-entered the facial skeleton. It was first in the facial skeleton when it passed through the Frontal Bone. To have re-entered the facial skeleton it had to have been in an anatomical structure other than what is considered the facisl skeleton, the R Anterior Fossa which holds the R Frontal Lobe. When it re-enter the facial skeleton at midline, there is only two structures that it could have passed through, the Ethmoid Bone or the Sphenoid Bone. These two bones make up the inferior aspect of the Cranial Vault. If you put your finger on the point where the cartilage of the nose and the bone meet and point to the back of your head, that is the level that they are at. The Ethmoid Bone is the front bone and th Sphenoid is deeper in the the cranial cavity. The bullet passing through the Sphenoid would mean the bulet would have went into the throat and not the cheek. There would have also been much more damage to the brain with a bullet going from the entrance wound the to Sphenoid. This would only make his testiomony that TA would have been incapacitated stronger. The Ethmoid is really the only option for it to re-enter into the facial skeleton. This path would also put it going through the Maxillary Sinus and on to the cheek.

The report is has two main sections the discussion/description of the wounds and then the General Examination, which is futher divided in the External and Internal Examinations. Look at the Nervous System Examination. The first statement is about the removal of the scalp and this reveals the previously discussed injuries. This excludes those injuries from the current discussion. This is done in medical reports so that the same information is not repeated over and over again. He has completed the description of the wounds, so there is no need for him spend another page going over them. He would have included something unexpected that he encountered, but anything related to the injuries would have been discussed in the Evidence of Trauma section. He didn't do an exam of the wounds and then come back in a few days and do everything else. When he was looking at the gunshot, he did his exam of the brain and completed it. The injured section and the non-injured section are treated as separate entities. This is common practice throughout the medical field.

Despite what some on here would have you believe. It is impossible for an object to transverse the Anterior Fossa, in the manner this bullet did, without hitting the Frontal Lobe. He did not specify this because it isn't necessary. Basic anatomy should lead someone reading his report to the very same conclusion.

Now, I won't speculate on how incapacitated TA might have been from the gunshot, had it happened first. However, postmortem wounds don't bleed. The gunshot did not bleed. While the brain tissue has decomposed, any blood that escaped from the the blood vessels from the time the bullet passed through until the heart stopped beating or there was not more blood to be pumped to the brain would not have decomposed to the point that he would not have been able to identify it. Did the blood on the sink decompose to the point that he could not idnetify it? How about the blood under TA in the shower? How about the blood from on the walls or in the carpet? How the blood in the stab wounds, could he find and identify it? Blood is blood no matter where it is, in or on the body. Even with the brain decomposed the blood vessels on the inside of the skull would bleed when a bullet passed through, and that blood would be evident.

Captain, I appreciate your thoughtful response.

In my mind you are severely over-interpreting the autopsy report. Let's consider the main point of your argument:

Despite what some on here would have you believe. It is impossible for an object to transverse the Anterior Fossa, in the manner this bullet did, without hitting the Frontal Lobe. He did not specify this because it isn't necessary. Basic anatomy should lead someone reading his report to the very same conclusion.

Ok, let's look at some anatomy. In fact, between the skull and brain are membranes and fluid-filled spaces that take up volume (dura mater, blood-filled dural space, pia mater, and subarachnoid space). To illustrate, I attach three anatomy diagrams below. As you can see, there IS space where the bullet could have perforated the anterior fossa without hitting the brain.

Having said that, Horn's report provides inadequate detail to indicate that the penetration was sufficiently posterior to have penetrated the brain. In fact, everything Horn says in his report indicates that the brain was NOT penetrated. There are two statements in his autopsy report that directly speak to this:

The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull ... and traverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury.

And:

The 1525-gram brain is covered by thin, clear, delicate leptomeninges. The dura mater and falx cerebri are intact.... Multiple serial sections of autolyzed brain do not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma, foreign bodies, or previously existing natural disease.

How do you penetrate the brain without penetrating the dura mater?

In light of the above information, it makes no sense that Horn would have assumed that anyone with any basic knowledge of anatomy reading the report would automatically know that the brain was penetrated. Horn is a Medical Examiner, and it is his job to identify injuries that could have significance in a murder trial. Any reasonable person would say that a bullet through the brain would be significant information to clearly bring forward in an autopsy report because the report could factor heavily in a criminal proceeding.

Yet Horn is silent on this in his report. Why? Because there was simply no evidence that the brain was penetrated.

Dave

 

[RealityMan]

Why not? What should he be doing at that moment, if say, a knife just wen into his chest? He would be thinking completely rationally? Maybe he fell forward and she stepped back out of the way? Maybe he went to the sink to help him stand up if he was crawling? Maybe she had the hallway blocked and he could go nowhere else? Who knows, but it's not like it's implausible in any real way. If he was going to move, he had to move somewhere, and it was a few steps away.



He could have of course, but no more good reason than if she hadn't.



Why was it in the bedroom area at all? Why would she have it if she was going to shoot him? Why would she think a gun wouldn't be enough?



That scenario makes the 62 seconds more difficult.

So, in your scenario, she returns with the knife and he's at the sink, but you think it's hard to get by her. So how does he get past her now to go down the hall if she's in his way?

Obviously if she's in the way, he could either stay still and be attacked or try and move as far as he could, and the latter is what appears to be what happened.

Those are all good points and I don't deny that TA's ultimate path to the sink and eventually down the hallway can be explained in a knife-first scenario. I just believe they are better explained by a gun-first scenario in which JA left the bathroom and returned with a knife.

Also, I cannot get around the fact that I believe JA would've chosen to use a gun when she approached TA in the shower, believing a gunshot to the head would be instantly fatal and all of the evidence would be contained to the shower area.

With regard to the knife, I don't think she thought she would need it. She had to go get it after firing the gun.

With regard to TA's eventual move down the hallway, he might've elected that route based on JA returning to the bathroom via the closet.

 

[neenee15]

Hey guys,

The bullet on top of blood, was there any prints on the bullet itself? Anybody know if there was testimony to that?

 

[Midnight Meddler]

A 25 doesn't carry as much pressure or power as you think.

The ME also said no stippling was due to the distance from the object OR, an object in between the gun and the object = less pressure too... What about the curly inch long fibers found on bathroom floor and going down the steps? (Decorative pillow fringe maybe?):waitasec:

 

[wilsodh]

I didn't say discussing it was bad. I said the speculation doesn't mean it's proof like many people think it is. Just because you think the times line up for gun first with a speculated scenario doesn't make it proof whatsoever. That's all I said.

He didn't just have a chest wound. He also had stabs to the throat (not the ear to ear one), multiple chest wounds and stabs to the head. Any of those could have dripped onto the sink. Chest wounds included. Again you don't know that he stood there for a long time as you say because you don't know the rate of blood loss. Significant injuries like TA sustained bleed profusely and the amount of blood in the sink could happen quickly. And I don't think he ever intentionally turned his back at the sink, I think a good explanation would be he fell and was getting back up. I absolutely don't think he turned his back to look at himself like many others. I don't visualize a scenario because there is absolutely no way to know what happened. It's a waste of my time that I have little of. I go by the evidence found at the crime scene and the autopsy and 2 different people that are experts both said gun last. To ignore both evidence materials is crazy IMO. And I in no way think the MEs evidence is fuzzy. I'm starting to think its arrogant that people think they know more than a ME and slightly irrational.

danzn, danzn, danzn...:facepalm:

This knife-first scenario continues to strain common sense at every turn. Its like you are trying to force-fit a square peg into a round hole. I can't believe you guys are so passionately defending this turkey. It continues to not work on so many levels. Even the Gospel According to Horn doesn't hold up to any serious scrutiny as support for knife-first! When are you guys going to start thinking for yourselves???

Ok, let's consider your scenario regarding alternative wounds that could have contributed to the sink blood. Let's start with the chest wound. Shall we re-open the Gospel? Here is the section of the autopsy report that discusses the lungs:

The lungs weigh 340 grams left and 280 grams right. The upper and lower airways are patent and of normal caliber. The pleural surfaces are smooth and glistening. The parenchyma is autolyzed dark re-purple, exuding moderate amount of blood and intermixed frothy decompositional fluid. There are no areas of induration, consolidation, hemorrhage, or gross scarring. The pulmonary are patent and of normal caliber.

Seems to me that Travis' lungs were not full of blood from his chest wound(s). This doesn't square with all the blood at the sink.

Consider all the sharp force chest wounds, as described in the autopsy report. The cluster of 9 stab woulds do not penetrate the chest cavity. There are some additional stab wounds that penetrate muscle, but do not penetrate the chest cavity. Finally, there is the heart wound. This is described:

A 1 1/2 inch oblique stab wound of the paramidline right chest, with penetration/perforation of the costochondral junction near the sternum at the level of the 3rd and 4th right ribs; the wound extends to a max depth of 3 1/2 inches with penetration of the superior vena cava near the base of the heart, with a small amount of surrounding hemorrhagic in the mediastinal soft tissues and the pericardial sac of the heart.

Seems to me that any penetration of the lung was rather minor, so minor it is not even mentioned in Horn's autopsy report! So how could the chest wound have caused all the blood at the sink?

Ok, how about the neck wounds? Could they be the source of all the blood at the sink? According to Horn's report, other than the major throat slitting, the three remaining neck stab wounds were superficial:

A 1/4 inch shallow stab wound of the anteromedial upper right neck, with penetration of subcutaneous adipose tissue only.
A 1/4 inch oblique stab wound of the lower anteromedial left neck, with penetration of lower medial attachment of left sternocleidomstoid muscle to manubrium.
A 1 inch oblique stab wound of the posterior left neck, with penetration of superficial posterior paraspinal neck muscles.

Again, these superficial wounds don't reasonably fit all the blood at the sink. The bleeding at the sink was profuse, almost pouring, as evidenced by the trail of blood at the front-left of the sink.

Ok, lastly, what about the scalp wounds? Could they have been the source of all that blood?? Again, from Horn's report:

Two (2) oblique linear full thickness incised wound of the right and left posterior scalp, each measuring 2 inches in length.
A 1/4 inch oblique stab wound of teh lower scalp (over the mastoid process), below the earlobe of the right ear, with an apparent blunt 1/32 inch wide and posteriorly, wiht penetration into scalp and superficial upper right sternocloidomastoid muscle.
A 1/4 shallow incised wound of the anteromedial upper left forhead, within the hairline.

So these stab wounds are posterior and/or fairly superficial. In addition, bleeding from scalp wounds will be slowed and absorbed by the hair.

So I think any thoughtful Websleuth enthusiast would be left wondering, what reasonably is the source of all the profuse bleeding at the sink?? Well, the 1/3 of us who have it right would probably agree that it makes more sense that the rapidly dripping blood would have come from a serious head wound, such as a hole in Travis' forehead. Or it could be coming from his nose from his busted sinus. Ever see a serious nose bleed?

Take another look at that sink. The trail of blood at front-left was from a profuse source. C'mon, get real. That was no superficial neck or scalp wound.

This was from a gunshot wound.

Dave

 

[RealityMan]

You have come up with a scenario that she attacked him inside the shower first. You run into a problem with the blood at the sink. The distance isn't much, but the why would he go to the sink is an issue with the attack started in the shower.

Under my theory, the explanation is that JA left the bathroom to retrieve the knife. During this brief moment, JA was not standing between TA and the sink area.

Try ignoring the sitting in the shower picture. If you don't have that, come up with a scenario that fits the major elements of the crime. Let go of the camera. She had to. She could not have held it durign the attack. She only has two hands, but has two weapons and a camera, something has to go.

It's really hard to leave out that last photo as it is partly the fact that TA had been holding that position for 70 seconds that makes me think TA was still in that position when JA delivered the first blow. Also, it's very hard for me to see how JA could've dropped the camera when she was clearly still holding it in her right hand when she accidentally snapped the bathroom photo shot 44 seconds after the last shower photo shot and the camera was still with her 62 seconds later when the first bleeding photo was snapped.

But let me try your exercise...

I'm looking at the sequence of photos with their timestamps:

http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/SoulShynz9293/shower_travis_murder_pics_xtralarge.jpg

The last photo you want me to look at is the face shot of TA in the shower at 5:29:20, right? You want me to assume that we do not know TA was still in the shower, holding the very same pose, 70 seconds after the close-up photo shot was taken.

Hmm... Okay, now instead of 44 seconds between the last photo shot and the bathroom ceiling shot, we have almost two minutes. It looks from the bathroom ceiling shot that JA may be backing away from the shower. Given her position relative to the shower when the bathroom ceiling photo was taken, I would guess that TA is still in the shower or just beginning to come out of the shower.

I don't see how adding 70 seconds to the timeline changes the analysis much.

However, if TA saw JA coming with a knife at any time during the two-minute sequence between the face shot and the bathroom ceiling shot--that is, if JA did not completely surprise TA with the knife--TA probably would've tried to overpower her as soon as he saw it.

On the other hand, if TA saw JA coming with a gun, I don't know what he could've done to defend himself.

JA could not have been holding two weapons up until the bathroom ceiling photo because she was still carrying the camera at that point. 62 seconds later, TA is bleeding at the end of the hallway.

 

[RealityMan]

I absolutely did not say that. I was just giving alternate scenarios since you guys think its impossible for an ambidextrous person to use their right hand and in that shower. I don't know what happened and neither do you so saying a certain attack is impossible is just erroneous.

And I don't think a woman half his size would ever be able to not "let" a man get up etc.

But the photographic evidence (e.g., the bathroom ceiling photo) shows that JA was still holding the camera in her right hand just 62 seconds before TA was bleeding at the end of the hallway. How could she have been wielding a knife in her right hand?

Of course it's not impossible that she tried to stab at TA's heart with her right hand, but why would she move the camera to her left hand, draw the knife with her right hand, and go in for a kill at that angle with TA positioned the way he was. Of course it's not impossible, but I just don't see her attack beginning that way.

 

[RealityMan]

So, with a gunshot you're assuming she left the scene? Where was the knife then? Why would she have both weapons on her if she was going to use the gun? She went down to kitchen and was able to make it back in time for the dragging photo in 62 seconds? Doubtful.

Yes, I'm assuming JA left the bathroom to retrieve the knife after delivering the gunshot wound. Where she got the knife is a mystery, but I'm guessing she found it nearby.

JA could not have been holding two weapons at any time before the bathroom ceiling photo.

This real-time video shows just how long 62 seconds really is...

[video=youtube;pEEW7S16o0c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEEW7S16o0c[/video]

 

[LambChop]

But the photographic evidence (e.g., the bathroom ceiling photo) shows that JA was still holding the camera in her right hand just 62 seconds before TA was bleeding at the end of the hallway. How could she have been wielding a knife in her right hand?

Of course it's not impossible that she tried to stab at TA's heart with her right hand, but why would she move the camera to her left hand, draw the knife with her right hand, and go in for a kill at that angle with TA positioned the way he was. Of course it's not impossible, but I just don't see her attack beginning that way.

Maybe she wasn't the one with the camera. No proof she had it at the time. She did say they were looking at the pictures and deleting them. What if Jodi handed Travis the camera with the picture of him sitting in the shower after deleting the picture that she took afterwards and she attacked him at that moment and he dropped the camera.

 

[LambChop]

Wow... so now JA may not be the one who snapped the bathroom ceiling photo just 44 seconds after accidentally snapping the last shower photo?

I would love to hear your thoughts as to how someone else would've snapped that shot!

You have no proof she was holding the camera when it dropped. Neither she, nor Travis is in the pictures. More than 1/2 a minute has gone by since the last picture of him in the shower. We do not know because no one is in this picture. She sad he got out of the shower, are we disputing that. What if he was holding the camera and she stabbed him/shot him and he went down with the camera and the camera rolled as it dropped. So now the camera is on the floor and we can see how it could have ended up at the end of the hallway. The only thing we know for certain is that Jodi lies, constantly. So it is possible Travis has that camera when she first attacked him. She did say he was looking at the pictures. Why would he stay sitting on the shower floor to look at the pictures???? He would get out and dry off to handle it, anyone would. Why would she take those pictures???? Maybe just to catch him off guard so she could stab him or shoot him. We do not know. None of us. But it is a possibility. jmo

 

[danzn16]

So here is a video about how easy and fast it is to clear a gun jam. JA could have had time to clear it if the gun jammed, especially since TA was already hit with one bullet in the head if you are a gun firster. However we don't know how experienced JA is with a gun. And no reason for her to have a back up knife either. Just wanted to share this with people that don't know about firearms.

http://youtu.be/ZUXjY9Y_vBE

 

[geevee]

Those are all good points and I don't deny that TA's ultimate path to the sink and eventually down the hallway can be explained in a knife-first scenario. I just believe they are better explained by a gun-first scenario in which JA left the bathroom and returned with a knife.

Also, I cannot get around the fact that I believe JA would've chosen to use a gun when she approached TA in the shower, believing a gunshot to the head would be instantly fatal and all of the evidence would be contained to the shower area.

With regard to the knife, I don't think she thought she would need it. She had to go get it after firing the gun.

With regard to TA's eventual move down the hallway, he might've elected that route based on JA returning to the bathroom via the closet.

Also, we don't even know if she intended to shoot him in the head first, maybe she was aiming at the heart and get caught her hand or ducked down and caught him in the head instead? She may never have intended to sue a knife except even hitting him in the head didn't knock him down or out completely. Just a thought. lol